Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Shoren 03-06-07, 06:01 PM	Have you ever told some one something truthful and serious that caused them to laugh and not believe you? has something that is absolutely terrible ever made you laugh? This are things I want to accomplish but I am lost to what skills they mimic. Dark humor or black humor involves topics and events that are usually treated seriously – death, mass murder, sickness, madness, terror, drug abuse, rape, war etc. – are treated in a humorous or satirical manner. Knowledge of such a topic can allow beneficial results when giving the gravest of news. I assume making Dark humor a knowledge check would defeat the purpose. Since knowledge appear to be only for use for answering questions in a specific discipline. I suppose what I am looking for is like a bluff in the way that it will cause desirable results in an opponent (wither it insights anger or laughter.) It however is not exactly a lie but a satirical spin on the morbid truth. In such ways it resembles the diplomacy skill. Epic level applications should cause the spell like effect Tasha’s hideous laughter. In some ways I would think since it's from joking stand point it could be a preform dark humor. So perhaps a preform skill. since I think it has many elements I suppose it should envelop them all in perhaps a DC+ scheme. Do you think you can help me out with this? I am thinking that streamlining several roles into one skill is very helpful to players. I am not sure this idea has promise or if I am just making thing more complicated. I have been looking at other skills but I am not sure how to construct this to best suit the game.
jadehawk 03-06-07, 06:39 PM	I'm not sure which one particularly, but you are detailing a perform skill actually. It would probably be a feat or synergy bonus that increases perform "jokes", or whatever it is. Hmmm...maybe it is profession now that I think of it. Take a look at the player's handbook and look under those skills for a particular one that addresses jokes, then you may have to build a feat that gives a bonus when using sardonic humour, or maybe its a trait that gives you a bonus to the check when the audience is leud and a penalty when they are prudent.
epifreak 03-06-07, 10:03 PM	Hmm... I could almost see using bluff for it, since you are basically telling the truth in a deceptive manner. I'm assuming we're referring to something like the following situation. You've brutally and secretly murdered several people. Several bodies have subsequently been found. Authorities: So, we've found these dead bodies, know anything about that? You: :rolleyes: Yeah, I killed them all, ritualistically disemboweled them, then fulfilled my morbid sexual fantasies on the corpses. Yep, that was totally me. Anyway, are we done here? I've got to get to confession, which, as you can guess, will probably take awhile. Authorities: Yeah, sure. I suppose it does sound a little ridiculous. Have a nice day.
Shoren 03-07-07, 02:09 AM	Hmm... I could almost see using bluff for it, since you are basically telling the truth in a deceptive manner. You've brutally and secretly murdered several people. Several bodies have subsequently been found. Authorities: So, we've found these dead bodies, know anything about that? You: :rolleyes: Yeah, I killed them all, ritualistically disemboweled them, then fulfilled my morbid sexual fantasies on the corpses. Yep, that was totally me. Anyway, are we done here? I've got to get to confession, which, as you can guess, will probably take awhile. Authorities: Yeah, sure. I suppose it does sound a little ridiculous. Have a nice day. Right that's is I direction I want to go with it. It's such a gray area, telling truths in a deceptive manner. So I suppose we could go there with it. Then again I could have it be an intimidate check and innuendo check to jest in a seemingly harmless way to all but say the few I wish to frighten. Where would be the other roles that cause the non threatened people in the room to be entertained by the jest. Is that a preform check too? I see that staying with the basic skills will allow you to accomplish what you want. Then again you have to spread you skills that out that much more. It also forces more roles to preform tasks that a nearly identical. With makes it far more likely to fail the task that is suppose to be common for certain characters.
epifreak 03-07-07, 02:56 AM	Like rogues, who will already have maxed ranks in most of those skills anyway? (except maybe perform)
CaoSlayer 03-07-07, 04:33 AM	This is one thing I use to ask myself: What is the skill you use to tell the truth? There is times where the truth is more unbeliable than a lie by example if you are a lammasu polymorphed into a halfling.
ScipioX 03-07-07, 01:34 PM	Bluff is useful when you are attempting to be deceptive. If you are technically telling the truth, but still trying to be deceptive, then bluff is the appropriate skill. I'd just require 2 skill checks. 1 to bluff, and 1 to entertain (perform, comedy).
jadehawk 03-07-07, 02:43 PM	Have you ever told some one something truthful and serious that caused them to laugh and not believe you? has something that is absolutely terrible ever made you laugh? How is this a bluff? How is it deceptive? It sounds like you are causing people to laugh despite their more prudent inhibitions. A bluff check is used to trick someone into believing something that is untrue. Perform checks are rolled to entertain. This looks like you are trying to entertain people, and to boot in an honest (yet humourous) fashion. True, jokes tend not to be true, but the person listening to the joke doesn't believe it is true either; they just know that it is funny. If the audience goes away with a changed point of view about how something occurred or their opinion on some ethical position, then maybe it is a bluff. But if you are just trying to make people laugh, then it is perform.
Shoren 03-08-07, 09:01 PM	I see that it is a complicated thing to create a new skill. That is perhaps why most people hear try to develop a new feat's. I have been told to do the same. I honestly rather not for just for the fact that there are already hundreds of feat out there. Maybe I can clear a bit up by showing you all why I would like this skill. A incomplete prestige class which I feel need this. I think this skill would put more focus as to how the class is to be played. I am thinking this skill would be a class skill once you acquire the class. I did make prerequisites that force a player to have high ranks in bluff diplomacy and Innuendo. The last thing I was unable to hash out what the knowledge of dark humor. ( Ie I wasn't quite sure if it was going to be a knowledge of not. Because like the for mentioned topic I wanted an easer way for players to preform such feats.) Dark Jester Requirements: 6 ranks Diplomacy 6 ranks Innuendo 6 ranks Bluff Knowledge: Dark Humor (new skill) Must amuse: "The Dark Prince" Graz'zt Skills: Appraise, bluff, decipher script, diplomacy, disguise, disable device, escape artist, forgery, gather information, hide, innuendo, listen, move silently, open lock, pick pocket, perform, read lips, scry, search, spot Proficiency: Simple weapons Light armor (arcane spell failure applies) Level Base attack bonus Fort Ref Will Special 1 +0 +0 +2 +0 Divine gift 1, DR1 2 +1 +0 +3 +0 sneak attack +1d6, DR 2 3 +2 +1 +3 +1 Divine gift 2, DR 3 4 +3 +1 +4 +1 sneak attack +2d6, DR 4 5 +4 +1 +4 +1 Divine Gift 3, DR 5 6 +5 +2 +5 +2 sneak attack +3d6, DR 6 7 +6 +2 +5 +2 Dark gift 1, DR 7 8 +7 +3 +5 +3 sneak attack +4d6, DR 8 9 +8 +4 +5 +4 Dark Gift 2, DR 9 10 +9 +5 +6 +5 Perfect Imp Special Abilities 1 Divine Gift 1: Charisma +2, see in darkness, polymorph rat, damage reduction 1/silver 2 sneak attack +1d6 (stacks with current sneak attack), damage reduction 2/silver 3 Divine Gift 2: Imp Tail, poison fort save DC 13; 1d4 temporary dexterity, secondary 2d4 temporary dexterity, polymorph raven, damage reduction 3/silver 4 damage reduction 4/silver 5 Divine Gift 3: Imp Body; poison resistance 10, fire resistance 10, damage, damage reduction 5/silver, polymorph boar 6 damage reduction 6/silver 7 Dark Gift 1: Improved Imp Body; poison resistance 20, fire resistance 20, damage reduction 7/silver, polymorph monstrous spider 8 damage reduction 8/silver Dark gift 2: Uncanny Imp Body; poison resistance 40, fire resistance 20 damage reduction 9/silver Perfect Imp: Poison immunity, fire resistance 40, regeneration 2/acid, holy, blessed (silver or enchanted) Spells: As sorcerer Spell list: 0 level: all 1st level: charm person, detect law, ray of enfeeblement, shield, ventriliquism 2nd level: augury, calm emotion, death knell, Tasha’s hideous laughter 3rd level: contagion, discern lies, tongues, suggestion 4th level: divine power, improved invisibility, modify memory, polymorph self 5th level: commune, mislead, nightmare, persistent image 6th level: forbiddance, mass suggestion, Tenser’s transformation, veil 7th level: true seeing, statue, spell turning, shadow walk 8th level: Otto’s irresistible dance, word of recall, unholy aura 9th level: temporal stasis, weird, time stop, teleportation circle Graz'zt (Book of Vile Darkness, page 130; Fiendish Codex I: Hordes of the Abyss, page 65.) is the most cunning and intelligent creature in the Abyss. His mastery of suduction and guile is surpassed by only a select few if any. Dark humor: where topics and events that are usually treated seriously – death, mass murder, sickness, madness, terror, drug abuse, rape, war etc. – are treated in a humorous or satirical manner. Knowlage of such a topic can allow benifical results when giving the gravest of news. Emo Philips "I was in the park today, minding my own business, staring at people, trying to make their brains explode. You know. And I saw this old woman digging for food through a garbage can. I don't know about you folks. I have a lot of love for old women going through garbage cans. They saved my life so many times as a baby. And I thought, if I can't score with her...hehhhhh. Oh, women, you can't live with 'em, you can't get 'em to dress up in a skimpy little Nazi costume...beat you with a warm squash..."
Millenia 03-08-07, 09:43 PM	It's simple. Perform (Dark Humor Jokes). Won't get you anything but cash, but hey...
Shoren 03-08-07, 10:42 PM	It's simple. Perform (Dark Humor Jokes). Won't get you anything but cash, but hey... That's not the goal. All though manipulation of people is. Dark jester is the one guy in the crew you would never suspect was leading you to your death. He controls power while looking as though he is not. This is the person that acts weak to gain something very valuable. He fills a niche that people need. All though he appears worthless he is indespencible.
epifreak 03-09-07, 12:45 AM	So like was said before, two checks. Bluff, then Perform (dark humor). If the bluff check succeeds, they don't suspect that you're actually telling the truth, and if the Perform check succeeds, they actually find it funny. If you fail the bluff check, they see right through your little ruse, though they might find the irony of it amusing if you succeed the perform roll. If you fail the perform check but succeed the bluff check, they just think you're a sick ****.
Shoren 03-09-07, 02:05 AM	It sounds alright. Perhaps epic level preform Dark humor can cause spell like ability as Tashas hideous laughter. Since it is not a preform that is interested in the concept of money perhaps it can be better displayed as a increasing hit die. Dc 5 1 HD 2 or lower thinks your non threatening. beat by five or more they think you are funny. DC 8 3 or fewer HD 2 or lower think you are non threatening. Beat by five or more they think you are funny. DC 10 1 HD 4 thinks you are non threatening. Beat by five and they think you are funny. DC 14 3 HD 4 think you are non threatining. Beat by five and they think you are funny. DC 16 1 HD 6 thinks you are non threatining. Beat by five and they think you are funny. DC 18 3 HD 6 think you are non threatening. Beat by five and they think you are funny. Beat any roll by ten and you can make a limited suggestion. As suggestion spell. Well not perfect but something to that effect.
Airos 03-09-07, 02:37 AM	How is this a bluff? How is it deceptive? It sounds like you are causing people to laugh despite their more prudent inhibitions. A bluff check is used to trick someone into believing something that is untrue. Perform checks are rolled to entertain. This looks like you are trying to entertain people, and to boot in an honest (yet humourous) fashion. True, jokes tend not to be true, but the person listening to the joke doesn't believe it is true either; they just know that it is funny. If the audience goes away with a changed point of view about how something occurred or their opinion on some ethical position, then maybe it is a bluff. But if you are just trying to make people laugh, then it is perform. From the SRD: A successful Bluff check indicates that the target reacts as you wish, at least for a short time (usually 1 round or less) or believes something that you want it to believe. Bluff, however, is not a suggestion spell. Bluffing does not equal lying, although that is one of the uses of the skill. The purpose of bluff is to mislead the target you are interacting with. Stating the truth in such a way to lead them into thinking it's not the truth is a bluff, not a lie. Just my :twocents:
Shoren 03-09-07, 02:30 PM	I understand the fact that bluff and perform dark humor can be very useful to solve this. There are far more complicates actions that can be preformed during a joke. Say you want one person in the group to believe that your jest is indeed true while the others should think it but a joke. So then you have Diplomacy and Bluff and a Perform check. Now say you want that person who believes your joke to be true to fearful of your intentions. Then you have a intimidate roll added into the mix. Mean while you don't want to intimidate the others. So would be another check possibly innuendo or bluff again? So much can go wrong. To effectively perform such a thing can be far more difficult that most actions. There is also the consideration that the DM may get irritated in dealing with the back lashes of your roll. Limiting the amount of rolls helps the player and the DM. Yet the only way to do that is to come up with a new skill that reasonably touches on most aspects. I'm not asking for a skill that makes the others worthless but something that simply helps the limit the rolls to get a desired effect.
Shoren 03-14-07, 03:13 PM	I hope this help some one other than myself.