Need help with SA+SS and flat footed. [Archive] - Wizards Community

Need help with SA+SS and flat footed. [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
RunLikeHell
06-14-07, 06:17 PM A question has come up in one of our games and i think we are doing it wrong.

Ok lets say the rogue has 4 attacks. Lvls in inviso blade and avenging trickster as well.

Rogue sneaks up and stabs an enemy and gets all his SA+SS dmg. Now Ini is rolled rogue wins, enemy is still flat footed(untill his turn) Does all 4 rogue attacks get SS+SA dmg or just the first?

Next enemy does his thing. Rouge now uses the ability to feign (for free) from Inviso blade, Enemy is flat footed again. (is this just the first attack or is it all 4?). After first attack hits the blood blade power come in and the enemy fails his will and is now shaken(Avg Trickster). Enemy is now considered flat footed for 1 rnd to the rogue due to the trickster power. Second attack hits(should be SA+SS dmg again?)

Now time for attack 3+4. what happens? SA+SS yes or no?
tarkin
06-14-07, 09:02 PM The enemey is flatfooted till his first action.

So yes, all the attacks the rogue makes, no matter how many, count as Sneak Attacks until then.

Similarly with other abilities.

As long as the enemey is flat footed, all the attacks are sneak attacks.

As your attacks do not cancel the flat footedness of the enemey, all of them are Sneak Attacks.

The only time you would only get a single attack is if making the attack changed the condition, such as Invisibility. When you make a single attack, you cease to be Invisible, and then no longer sneak attack.
jaelis
06-14-07, 09:10 PM Feinting in Combat
...
If your Bluff check result exceeds this special Sense Motive check result, your target is denied its Dexterity bonus to AC (if any) for the next melee attack you make against it. This attack must be made on or before your next turn.

If you feint, you only get SA damage on your next attack, if it hits. But the general rule is what Tarkin said: if your opponent is denied his dex to your attack, you get your sneak attack damage. It doesn't matter why or how many times a round it happens.
tarkin
06-14-07, 10:00 PM Ah.

I got confused by the fact he said "feign" instead of Feint and said flat-footed.

It is NOT a good idea to go around thinking Sneak Attack = Flat footed.

Flat footed is only one of several conditions that let you sneak attack.

Things that deny your Dex do NOT make you flat-footed.

That is a major error that will cause you lots of problems later on.

Always remember: To get sneak attack I need to either Deny them their Dex or flank them. The word 'flat footed' should not be involved in your mind till much later.

Flat footed is only one of several different ways to deny dex, and besides the first round attacks, is RARELY the method actually used.

More common you get some version of hiding/invisibility.
BroadStreetBully
06-15-07, 01:58 AM actually, sudden strike only works against flat-footed targets, whereas sneak attacks work against both flat-footed foes and foes you're flanking.

so i'd be familiar with flat-footedness myself. there are some nifty feats that allow you to make targets flat-footed, such as Flick of the Wrist (Complete Warrior). furthermore, anytime a target is denied his Dexterity bonus to AC, he is considered flat-footed (this includes when he is in a grapple, when he is stunned, and when he is under the effect of a "hold person" spell just to name a few examples).
jaelis
06-15-07, 06:56 AM actually, sudden strike only works against flat-footed targets, whereas sneak attacks work against both flat-footed foes and foes you're flanking.

Like Tarkin said, there's a difference between flat-footed and denied Dex. Sudden strike works anytime your opponent is denied his Dex. Only a few things make you flat footed... not having moved yet and balancing are the two that come to mind.

An important difference is that when you're flatfooted, you can't take an AoO.
RunLikeHell
06-15-07, 04:07 PM Well i believe Feint is one of them because its the main power of a inviso blade
jaelis
06-15-07, 04:35 PM A successful feint denies your opponent his dex bonus for your next attack. That lets you do sneak attack and sudden strike damage.

It does not make your opponent flat footed. That would make him unable to take attacks of opportunity.

An invisible blade can eventually feint as a swift action.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
RunLikeHell 06-14-07, 06:17 PM	A question has come up in one of our games and i think we are doing it wrong. Ok lets say the rogue has 4 attacks. Lvls in inviso blade and avenging trickster as well. Rogue sneaks up and stabs an enemy and gets all his SA+SS dmg. Now Ini is rolled rogue wins, enemy is still flat footed(untill his turn) Does all 4 rogue attacks get SS+SA dmg or just the first? Next enemy does his thing. Rouge now uses the ability to feign (for free) from Inviso blade, Enemy is flat footed again. (is this just the first attack or is it all 4?). After first attack hits the blood blade power come in and the enemy fails his will and is now shaken(Avg Trickster). Enemy is now considered flat footed for 1 rnd to the rogue due to the trickster power. Second attack hits(should be SA+SS dmg again?) Now time for attack 3+4. what happens? SA+SS yes or no?
tarkin 06-14-07, 09:02 PM	The enemey is flatfooted till his first action. So yes, all the attacks the rogue makes, no matter how many, count as Sneak Attacks until then. Similarly with other abilities. As long as the enemey is flat footed, all the attacks are sneak attacks. As your attacks do not cancel the flat footedness of the enemey, all of them are Sneak Attacks. The only time you would only get a single attack is if making the attack changed the condition, such as Invisibility. When you make a single attack, you cease to be Invisible, and then no longer sneak attack.
jaelis 06-14-07, 09:10 PM	Feinting in Combat ... If your Bluff check result exceeds this special Sense Motive check result, your target is denied its Dexterity bonus to AC (if any) for the next melee attack you make against it. This attack must be made on or before your next turn. If you feint, you only get SA damage on your next attack, if it hits. But the general rule is what Tarkin said: if your opponent is denied his dex to your attack, you get your sneak attack damage. It doesn't matter why or how many times a round it happens.
tarkin 06-14-07, 10:00 PM	Ah. I got confused by the fact he said "feign" instead of Feint and said flat-footed. It is NOT a good idea to go around thinking Sneak Attack = Flat footed. Flat footed is only one of several conditions that let you sneak attack. Things that deny your Dex do NOT make you flat-footed. That is a major error that will cause you lots of problems later on. Always remember: To get sneak attack I need to either Deny them their Dex or flank them. The word 'flat footed' should not be involved in your mind till much later. Flat footed is only one of several different ways to deny dex, and besides the first round attacks, is RARELY the method actually used. More common you get some version of hiding/invisibility.
BroadStreetBully 06-15-07, 01:58 AM	actually, sudden strike only works against flat-footed targets, whereas sneak attacks work against both flat-footed foes and foes you're flanking. so i'd be familiar with flat-footedness myself. there are some nifty feats that allow you to make targets flat-footed, such as Flick of the Wrist (Complete Warrior). furthermore, anytime a target is denied his Dexterity bonus to AC, he is considered flat-footed (this includes when he is in a grapple, when he is stunned, and when he is under the effect of a "hold person" spell just to name a few examples).
jaelis 06-15-07, 06:56 AM	actually, sudden strike only works against flat-footed targets, whereas sneak attacks work against both flat-footed foes and foes you're flanking. Like Tarkin said, there's a difference between flat-footed and denied Dex. Sudden strike works anytime your opponent is denied his Dex. Only a few things make you flat footed... not having moved yet and balancing are the two that come to mind. An important difference is that when you're flatfooted, you can't take an AoO.
RunLikeHell 06-15-07, 04:07 PM	Well i believe Feint is one of them because its the main power of a inviso blade
jaelis 06-15-07, 04:35 PM	A successful feint denies your opponent his dex bonus for your next attack. That lets you do sneak attack and sudden strike damage. It does not make your opponent flat footed. That would make him unable to take attacks of opportunity. An invisible blade can eventually feint as a swift action.