Nerfing Reserve feats. [Archive] - Wizards Community

Nerfing Reserve feats. [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Jack Greylock
05-25-07, 02:58 PM So I have been running an Eberron campaign and allowed the wizard to take the Firey Burst Reserve feat. To be honest as a DM I have found it to be a little too useful. I didn’t want to ban it altogether having spent far to many times in parties where once the wizard is out of spells the adventure has to stop no matter how ready to continue the rest of the party is or how short a time we have been adventuring ("so you guys are going to set up camp now since the wizard is out of spells, OK well it is 9 in the morning and you have only been adventuring for like an hour, none of you are tired or hungry, but go ahead and set up camp")

However I did decide to make the reserve feats Spell Like instead of Supernatural so at least the basic rules around casting while threatened still apply. This helped a bit, though I still think it isn't the perfect solution. Anyone else got another solution?
Drachasor
05-25-07, 03:07 PM Just how are you finding it "too useful"? Can you describe the scenerios? How many combats have happened already when the character is using this feat? How is the character performing compared to others in the party? Honestly, I don't see how it could be a problem.

-Drachasor
Jack Greylock
05-25-07, 03:21 PM We have played through about 16 combats now and the Wizard in question tends to use little else in combat. Here are my big problems with it as written:

1. Being a Supernatural ability it can be used with no defensive casting check while threatened, while grappled, or even pinned.

2. It has the same DC as your highest reserved spell, this means it is more likely to hit the roguish enemies (anyone with Evasion) than his fireball.

3. The damage may not be huge but a 5 foot radius is often more useful in a fight than a standard fireballs massive 20 foot radius.

4. It makes the standard reserve option of every wizard seem pointless or at least less effective (that all to useful till now wand of magic missiles gets way less use than it used to)

5. They turn the wizard into more of a warmage or sorcerer (with a ability to doll out damage all day without fear of running out of juice) yet with the amazing flexibility of the standard wizard.
CaoSlayer
05-25-07, 05:36 PM what level is the wizard?

The general consensus is that a wizard perform way better using regular slots since by mid levels he will have enough slots to burn a better spell that the reserve one all day along.
Jack Greylock
05-25-07, 05:59 PM This was with a wizard that started at 5th and just leveled to 7th last week. And of course it isn't as overpowered at high levels, but then most play happens at low levels anyway and the feats are available pretty early as well.
Lina_Inverse
05-25-07, 06:21 PM This was with a wizard that started at 5th and just leveled to 7th last week. And of course it isn't as overpowered at high levels, but then most play happens at low levels anyway and the feats are available pretty early as well.

Hardly. Play should happen at all levels from 1-20 equally.
Anywho.

*opens complete mage and grabs a bottle of tea*
It's my favorite time of the day, math time.

Firey burst inflicts 4d6 damage with a 4th level spell slot tied up with a fire spell. Thats 14 damage per round and 14 damage for a standard action. A reflex save DC14+intmodifier halves the damage.
A level 1 barbarian inflicts 2d6+3(1.5*strengh)+3(if rageing) 13 damage for a standard action. a to-hit roll with a +7 bonus is required.

Your level -7- wizard, who is -12- times as strong as a level 1 character is doing the same damage as said lvl1 character. and your having problems with this?
The_Basilisk
05-25-07, 06:28 PM My girlfriend took fiery burst with her druid in the game I am running. SHe is a new player to the game, and likes the feat. Yes, in some combats, she uses little else. While it is helpful to be able to do ranged damage without burning spells, I have demonstrated that actually using her spells slots can be more effective if she isn't expecting many encounters that day. Reserve feats do seem powerful at times, and are good, but they aren't as powerful as some people tend to think. If your character has advance knowledge that he or she will be fighting for long periods of time, reserve feats are good. But if you're merely getting ambushed occasionally, or in an area with low random encouters or similar situations, using your spells themselves makes you a more effective caster by far.
farfairer
05-25-07, 06:46 PM I have to agree with Lina Inverse here.

How is 4d6 in a 5' radius with a save DC of about 17-19 for half damage devistating to the game?

Thats 4-16 damage Save for 2-8.

At 7th level an Orb of Fire deals 3d6 more damage, has no save for the damage, offers no SR, has a greater range (40ft), and has a possible secondary effect.

I would even consider Scorching Ray better. Yes you need to roll a touch attack, but those rarely miss, AND it is a spell you can both sneak attack with and crit with. As a 7th level caster the wizard in question gets 2 rays that each deal 4d6 and can target different people.

So what if a spell requires concentration. Most wizards can simply make a 5 foot step away from melee combat so as not to provoke, or they can make the concentration check to cast defensivly. The advantages of the reserve feets are not in their raw power, but in the fact that they are a resource the caster won't run out of.
Cold Napalm
05-25-07, 06:51 PM If you think that fiery burst reserve feat is broken, just be glad that your wizard player is dumb enough to tie up his 4th level slot with a fire spell instead of casting an actually useful (i.e. for your case broken since you think 4d6 is broken somehow) spell. I'd imagine that polymorph would make you cry...
Jack Greylock
05-25-07, 07:08 PM Every spell mentioned burns a slot and so should be powerfull. They are also dangerous to cast when threatend, require components and feel like D&D wizardry. The reserve feats feel more like a video game, II almost expect them to come with a bottle of blue mana potion. And no I don't think that a wizard should be able to equal a barbarian in combat damage every round, without running out of juice.
Lina_Inverse
05-25-07, 07:23 PM Every spell mentioned burns a slot and so should be powerfull.

The cost of a slot is generally lower than the cost of an action.
Actions are the most important resource in D&D.

A level 7 wizard with a 18 intelligence(15base+1lvl4+2item) has 6lvl1, 5lvl2, 4lvl3 and 3lvl4 spells per day(ignoring cantrips) for a total of 18 spells per day 4 encounters per day and 4 rounds per encounter make 16 total slots. A wizard going though a normal adventuring day won't even run out of spells to actually need a reserve feat.

They are also dangerous to cast when threatend

5 ft. step.

require components

Irrelevant.

feel like D&D wizardry. The reserve feats feel more like a video game, II almost expect them to come with a bottle of blue mana potion.

Completely irrelevant. You asked about balance, and thus we discuss balance.

And no I don't think that a wizard should be able to equal a barbarian in combat damage every round, without running out of juice.

...
Level one barbarian, a level 7 barbarian should be doing quite a bit more.
Lotus Crane
05-25-07, 07:46 PM And no I don't think that a wizard should be able to equal a barbarian in combat damage every round, without running out of juice.
Re-read Lina's post. You don't think a 7th level wizard should be able to do as much damage as a 1st level barbarian every round?

A 7th level barbarian can easily outpace any of the reserve feats. Heck, even a 7th level warlock (the class that people complain is made obsolete by reserve feats) is much better with his eldritch blast and other invocations than any wizard strictly relying on reserve feats; the pure damage might almost be the same, but with eldritch infusions and blast templates, a warlock can simultaneously cause status penalties, and hit multiple targets at longer ranges.

The reserve feats are just fine as written. In fact, I actually find them too underwhelming to ever consider using myself.
Stardust
05-25-07, 07:53 PM 1. Being a Supernatural ability it can be used with no defensive casting check while threatened, while grappled, or even pinned.

If your wizard is anywhere near melee, something is wrong. Sure, he may get ambushed sometime, but if he uses it in a grapple, he's going to include himself in that area of effect, or else do a small amount of damage to somebody who isn't stopping him casting powerful spells, taking up an action he could use to try and escape the grapple.

2. It has the same DC as your highest reserved spell, this means it is more likely to hit the roguish enemies (anyone with Evasion) than his fireball.

Taking a level 7 wizard (as you say yours currently is), capable of casting 4th level spells. They are thus sacrificing 4d6 of damage to raise the DC by 1. If anything, I'd say this was a poor trade. (4d6 by the way, because the feat raises your CL by 1 for fire spells, so his fireballs would be dishing out 8d6 damage a pop). Anybody without evasion (at least 95% of the monster manual) will take 4d6 on a successful save from a regular fireball, so who gives a carp what the DC is? It's guaranteed to do at least the full damage of your fiery burst, potentially double. If your mage is throwing fireballs at rogues, then he needs to re-check that intelligence score he's got written down and then use any other spell he has that doesn't require a reflex save.

3. The damage may not be huge but a 5 foot radius is often more useful in a fight than a standard fireballs massive 20 foot radius.

So he's using common sense and trying not to kill his allies and you think this is bad? Umm, why??? Again, he's trading a lot of damage to hock that little fireball and anybody who saves is going to take an average of ooh, 7 damage, 14 on a failed save? Again assuming your 7th level wizard with a 4th level fire spell.

4. It makes the standard reserve option of every wizard seem pointless or at least less effective (that all to useful till now wand of magic missiles gets way less use than it used to)

I wasn't aware that a wand of magic missiles was a standard wizardly backup. You're upset that the wizard isn't fitting into some cookie-cutter equipment and behaviour mould? There's a series of lessons in wizard school that stresses the importance of falling back on a wand of magic missiles in a tight situation? I don't mean to be rude, but this isn't even an argument, as best it's a convention you or your group has developed that you're peeved to see being replaced with something else.

5. They turn the wizard into more of a warmage or sorcerer (with a ability to doll out damage all day without fear of running out of juice) yet with the amazing flexibility of the standard wizard.

Not even close, really. The sorcerer can spontaneously cast any of his spells at any time, apply metamagic to them and so on. The wizard with a reserve feat can hock a small fireball a lot. He can't use metamagic on it, he can't use any other power, he can just hock that lil' old fireball at all times.

As has been mentioned, tying up a high-level spell slot with a spell that can't effectively be used is a genuine drawback for a wizard. There are a lot of powerful spells that could go there instead and at higher levels, the wizard should have more than enough spells to get him through the day, dishing out much more damage than a mini-fireball can hope to achieve.

Honestly, the reserve feats really aren't broken. At lower levels it means your mage isn't reduced to missing a lot with his crossbow when he's burned his three spells for the day magic missiling a kobold. At higher levels, those little fireballs are largely redundant due to the sheer number of spells available from each level. Of course against grunts and other low-HD pests, they're a nice option to save blowing a powerful spell on what would otherwise be blatant overkill.

Of course the key question is this: Is it spoiling anybody's game? Are the other players unhappy? If they're sick of the mage throwing those fireballs around and complaining about it, then sure, maybe do something. But do they complain that the barbarian swings his axe around every round? Or that the cleric turns undead every time a skeleton attacks? Are you finding that the group is suddenly breezing through your encounters too easily? I can't see how this would be the case unless you're using low-HD critters spaced very close together. Anything with a decent number of hit points/decent reflex save, or simply opponents more than 5 feet apart are not going to be decimated by this ability.
Unless it's making you or any of the players dislike the game significantly, then I fail to see the problem.
EpicEvokerElf
05-25-07, 08:15 PM Full stop. HOW is this broken? HOW is it too useful? HOW is it anything but sadly subpar? Please explain.
Sleepwalker13666
05-25-07, 08:33 PM The reserve feats where made for standard spellslingers to keep up with the new ones, infinite spells is becoming more common, fiery burst is nothing the warlock can't do. The party shouldn't have to stop every time the wizard runs out of spells.
farfairer
05-25-07, 10:25 PM Every spell mentioned burns a slot and so should be powerfull. They are also dangerous to cast when threatend, require components and feel like D&D wizardry. The reserve feats feel more like a video game, II almost expect them to come with a bottle of blue mana potion. And no I don't think that a wizard should be able to equal a barbarian in combat damage every round, without running out of juice.

Ok, I play a wizard with a reserve feat. And you know what? If it didn't raise the CL of a whole bunch of my character's spells I wouldn't have it at all.

I took Invisible Needle for a character who is an Argent Savant. I makes up for the caster level the class lost me. It also allows me to deal damage, but that aspect of the feat is only usefull because 7th and 8th level force spells are more limited in their use than 1-6th level ones.

The only reason I have ever used the attack aspect of the feat is because I never seem to cast Mordinkanin's Sword (but as an Argent Savant my character ALWAYS has at least 1 Force descripter spell memorized per spell level).

7d4 damage is nice, but the only benefit it has over ANY single given spell my character could be casting instead of using the Invisible Needle is that the attack granted by the feat offers no SR.

Stardust already said it, but I think a bit of reiteration seems to be in order: With the +1 CL granted by the feat why isn't the Wizard casting actual fire spells?

Against a single target (with the CL from the feat) Lesser Orb of Fire is more impressive than the actual mini-fireball produced by the Firey Burst feat (4d8, no save).
xanadu
05-26-07, 02:27 AM How is the wizard not dead wading into melee with his 4d6 save for half flashy but not very effective fireworks?

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Jack Greylock 05-25-07, 02:58 PM	So I have been running an Eberron campaign and allowed the wizard to take the Firey Burst Reserve feat. To be honest as a DM I have found it to be a little too useful. I didn’t want to ban it altogether having spent far to many times in parties where once the wizard is out of spells the adventure has to stop no matter how ready to continue the rest of the party is or how short a time we have been adventuring ("so you guys are going to set up camp now since the wizard is out of spells, OK well it is 9 in the morning and you have only been adventuring for like an hour, none of you are tired or hungry, but go ahead and set up camp") However I did decide to make the reserve feats Spell Like instead of Supernatural so at least the basic rules around casting while threatened still apply. This helped a bit, though I still think it isn't the perfect solution. Anyone else got another solution?
Drachasor 05-25-07, 03:07 PM	Just how are you finding it "too useful"? Can you describe the scenerios? How many combats have happened already when the character is using this feat? How is the character performing compared to others in the party? Honestly, I don't see how it could be a problem. -Drachasor
Jack Greylock 05-25-07, 03:21 PM	We have played through about 16 combats now and the Wizard in question tends to use little else in combat. Here are my big problems with it as written: 1. Being a Supernatural ability it can be used with no defensive casting check while threatened, while grappled, or even pinned. 2. It has the same DC as your highest reserved spell, this means it is more likely to hit the roguish enemies (anyone with Evasion) than his fireball. 3. The damage may not be huge but a 5 foot radius is often more useful in a fight than a standard fireballs massive 20 foot radius. 4. It makes the standard reserve option of every wizard seem pointless or at least less effective (that all to useful till now wand of magic missiles gets way less use than it used to) 5. They turn the wizard into more of a warmage or sorcerer (with a ability to doll out damage all day without fear of running out of juice) yet with the amazing flexibility of the standard wizard.
CaoSlayer 05-25-07, 05:36 PM	what level is the wizard? The general consensus is that a wizard perform way better using regular slots since by mid levels he will have enough slots to burn a better spell that the reserve one all day along.
Jack Greylock 05-25-07, 05:59 PM	This was with a wizard that started at 5th and just leveled to 7th last week. And of course it isn't as overpowered at high levels, but then most play happens at low levels anyway and the feats are available pretty early as well.
Lina_Inverse 05-25-07, 06:21 PM	This was with a wizard that started at 5th and just leveled to 7th last week. And of course it isn't as overpowered at high levels, but then most play happens at low levels anyway and the feats are available pretty early as well. Hardly. Play should happen at all levels from 1-20 equally. Anywho. opens complete mage and grabs a bottle of tea It's my favorite time of the day, math time. Firey burst inflicts 4d6 damage with a 4th level spell slot tied up with a fire spell. Thats 14 damage per round and 14 damage for a standard action. A reflex save DC14+intmodifier halves the damage. A level 1 barbarian inflicts 2d6+3(1.5*strengh)+3(if rageing) 13 damage for a standard action. a to-hit roll with a +7 bonus is required. Your level -7- wizard, who is -12- times as strong as a level 1 character is doing the same damage as said lvl1 character. and your having problems with this?
The_Basilisk 05-25-07, 06:28 PM	My girlfriend took fiery burst with her druid in the game I am running. SHe is a new player to the game, and likes the feat. Yes, in some combats, she uses little else. While it is helpful to be able to do ranged damage without burning spells, I have demonstrated that actually using her spells slots can be more effective if she isn't expecting many encounters that day. Reserve feats do seem powerful at times, and are good, but they aren't as powerful as some people tend to think. If your character has advance knowledge that he or she will be fighting for long periods of time, reserve feats are good. But if you're merely getting ambushed occasionally, or in an area with low random encouters or similar situations, using your spells themselves makes you a more effective caster by far.
farfairer 05-25-07, 06:46 PM	I have to agree with Lina Inverse here. How is 4d6 in a 5' radius with a save DC of about 17-19 for half damage devistating to the game? Thats 4-16 damage Save for 2-8. At 7th level an Orb of Fire deals 3d6 more damage, has no save for the damage, offers no SR, has a greater range (40ft), and has a possible secondary effect. I would even consider Scorching Ray better. Yes you need to roll a touch attack, but those rarely miss, AND it is a spell you can both sneak attack with and crit with. As a 7th level caster the wizard in question gets 2 rays that each deal 4d6 and can target different people. So what if a spell requires concentration. Most wizards can simply make a 5 foot step away from melee combat so as not to provoke, or they can make the concentration check to cast defensivly. The advantages of the reserve feets are not in their raw power, but in the fact that they are a resource the caster won't run out of.
Cold Napalm 05-25-07, 06:51 PM	If you think that fiery burst reserve feat is broken, just be glad that your wizard player is dumb enough to tie up his 4th level slot with a fire spell instead of casting an actually useful (i.e. for your case broken since you think 4d6 is broken somehow) spell. I'd imagine that polymorph would make you cry...
Jack Greylock 05-25-07, 07:08 PM	Every spell mentioned burns a slot and so should be powerfull. They are also dangerous to cast when threatend, require components and feel like D&D wizardry. The reserve feats feel more like a video game, II almost expect them to come with a bottle of blue mana potion. And no I don't think that a wizard should be able to equal a barbarian in combat damage every round, without running out of juice.
Lina_Inverse 05-25-07, 07:23 PM	Every spell mentioned burns a slot and so should be powerfull. The cost of a slot is generally lower than the cost of an action. Actions are the most important resource in D&D. A level 7 wizard with a 18 intelligence(15base+1lvl4+2item) has 6lvl1, 5lvl2, 4lvl3 and 3lvl4 spells per day(ignoring cantrips) for a total of 18 spells per day 4 encounters per day and 4 rounds per encounter make 16 total slots. A wizard going though a normal adventuring day won't even run out of spells to actually need a reserve feat. They are also dangerous to cast when threatend 5 ft. step. require components Irrelevant. feel like D&D wizardry. The reserve feats feel more like a video game, II almost expect them to come with a bottle of blue mana potion. Completely irrelevant. You asked about balance, and thus we discuss balance. And no I don't think that a wizard should be able to equal a barbarian in combat damage every round, without running out of juice. ... Level one barbarian, a level 7 barbarian should be doing quite a bit more.
Lotus Crane 05-25-07, 07:46 PM	And no I don't think that a wizard should be able to equal a barbarian in combat damage every round, without running out of juice. Re-read Lina's post. You don't think a 7th level wizard should be able to do as much damage as a 1st level barbarian every round? A 7th level barbarian can easily outpace any of the reserve feats. Heck, even a 7th level warlock (the class that people complain is made obsolete by reserve feats) is much better with his eldritch blast and other invocations than any wizard strictly relying on reserve feats; the pure damage might almost be the same, but with eldritch infusions and blast templates, a warlock can simultaneously cause status penalties, and hit multiple targets at longer ranges. The reserve feats are just fine as written. In fact, I actually find them too underwhelming to ever consider using myself.
Stardust 05-25-07, 07:53 PM	1. Being a Supernatural ability it can be used with no defensive casting check while threatened, while grappled, or even pinned. If your wizard is anywhere near melee, something is wrong. Sure, he may get ambushed sometime, but if he uses it in a grapple, he's going to include himself in that area of effect, or else do a small amount of damage to somebody who isn't stopping him casting powerful spells, taking up an action he could use to try and escape the grapple. 2. It has the same DC as your highest reserved spell, this means it is more likely to hit the roguish enemies (anyone with Evasion) than his fireball. Taking a level 7 wizard (as you say yours currently is), capable of casting 4th level spells. They are thus sacrificing 4d6 of damage to raise the DC by 1. If anything, I'd say this was a poor trade. (4d6 by the way, because the feat raises your CL by 1 for fire spells, so his fireballs would be dishing out 8d6 damage a pop). Anybody without evasion (at least 95% of the monster manual) will take 4d6 on a successful save from a regular fireball, so who gives a carp what the DC is? It's guaranteed to do at least the full damage of your fiery burst, potentially double. If your mage is throwing fireballs at rogues, then he needs to re-check that intelligence score he's got written down and then use any other spell he has that doesn't require a reflex save. 3. The damage may not be huge but a 5 foot radius is often more useful in a fight than a standard fireballs massive 20 foot radius. So he's using common sense and trying not to kill his allies and you think this is bad? Umm, why??? Again, he's trading a lot of damage to hock that little fireball and anybody who saves is going to take an average of ooh, 7 damage, 14 on a failed save? Again assuming your 7th level wizard with a 4th level fire spell. 4. It makes the standard reserve option of every wizard seem pointless or at least less effective (that all to useful till now wand of magic missiles gets way less use than it used to) I wasn't aware that a wand of magic missiles was a standard wizardly backup. You're upset that the wizard isn't fitting into some cookie-cutter equipment and behaviour mould? There's a series of lessons in wizard school that stresses the importance of falling back on a wand of magic missiles in a tight situation? I don't mean to be rude, but this isn't even an argument, as best it's a convention you or your group has developed that you're peeved to see being replaced with something else. 5. They turn the wizard into more of a warmage or sorcerer (with a ability to doll out damage all day without fear of running out of juice) yet with the amazing flexibility of the standard wizard. Not even close, really. The sorcerer can spontaneously cast any of his spells at any time, apply metamagic to them and so on. The wizard with a reserve feat can hock a small fireball a lot. He can't use metamagic on it, he can't use any other power, he can just hock that lil' old fireball at all times. As has been mentioned, tying up a high-level spell slot with a spell that can't effectively be used is a genuine drawback for a wizard. There are a lot of powerful spells that could go there instead and at higher levels, the wizard should have more than enough spells to get him through the day, dishing out much more damage than a mini-fireball can hope to achieve. Honestly, the reserve feats really aren't broken. At lower levels it means your mage isn't reduced to missing a lot with his crossbow when he's burned his three spells for the day magic missiling a kobold. At higher levels, those little fireballs are largely redundant due to the sheer number of spells available from each level. Of course against grunts and other low-HD pests, they're a nice option to save blowing a powerful spell on what would otherwise be blatant overkill. Of course the key question is this: Is it spoiling anybody's game? Are the other players unhappy? If they're sick of the mage throwing those fireballs around and complaining about it, then sure, maybe do something. But do they complain that the barbarian swings his axe around every round? Or that the cleric turns undead every time a skeleton attacks? Are you finding that the group is suddenly breezing through your encounters too easily? I can't see how this would be the case unless you're using low-HD critters spaced very close together. Anything with a decent number of hit points/decent reflex save, or simply opponents more than 5 feet apart are not going to be decimated by this ability. Unless it's making you or any of the players dislike the game significantly, then I fail to see the problem.
EpicEvokerElf 05-25-07, 08:15 PM	Full stop. HOW is this broken? HOW is it too useful? HOW is it anything but sadly subpar? Please explain.
Sleepwalker13666 05-25-07, 08:33 PM	The reserve feats where made for standard spellslingers to keep up with the new ones, infinite spells is becoming more common, fiery burst is nothing the warlock can't do. The party shouldn't have to stop every time the wizard runs out of spells.
farfairer 05-25-07, 10:25 PM	Every spell mentioned burns a slot and so should be powerfull. They are also dangerous to cast when threatend, require components and feel like D&D wizardry. The reserve feats feel more like a video game, II almost expect them to come with a bottle of blue mana potion. And no I don't think that a wizard should be able to equal a barbarian in combat damage every round, without running out of juice. Ok, I play a wizard with a reserve feat. And you know what? If it didn't raise the CL of a whole bunch of my character's spells I wouldn't have it at all. I took Invisible Needle for a character who is an Argent Savant. I makes up for the caster level the class lost me. It also allows me to deal damage, but that aspect of the feat is only usefull because 7th and 8th level force spells are more limited in their use than 1-6th level ones. The only reason I have ever used the attack aspect of the feat is because I never seem to cast Mordinkanin's Sword (but as an Argent Savant my character ALWAYS has at least 1 Force descripter spell memorized per spell level). 7d4 damage is nice, but the only benefit it has over ANY single given spell my character could be casting instead of using the Invisible Needle is that the attack granted by the feat offers no SR. Stardust already said it, but I think a bit of reiteration seems to be in order: With the +1 CL granted by the feat why isn't the Wizard casting actual fire spells? Against a single target (with the CL from the feat) Lesser Orb of Fire is more impressive than the actual mini-fireball produced by the Firey Burst feat (4d8, no save).
xanadu 05-26-07, 02:27 AM	How is the wizard not dead wading into melee with his 4d6 save for half flashy but not very effective fireworks?