New Bard Feat: Inspiring Strike [Archive] - Wizards Community

New Bard Feat: Inspiring Strike [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Finarin Panjoro
09-10-07, 02:22 PM Anyone see anything inherently wrong or unbalancing to this feat. I'm about to make it available in my campaign (I'm the DM) and I have a bard/fighter that is very likely to take it at the first opportunity (since she's been asking for a way to use bardic music without sacrificing her ability to attack).

Inspiring Strike [General]
Your music and combat prowess inspire your allies to greater efforts.
Prerequisites: Bardic Music ability, BAB +2, Perform (song or oratory) 5 ranks
Benefit: In any round that you take an attack, full attack, or charge action you may also activate one of your inspiring bardic music abilities (inspire courage, inspire competence, inspire greatness, or inspire heroics). At least one of your attacks must succeed (hit, not necessarily deal damage) in order for your ability to activate. If all of your attacks miss you still expend one bardic music use for the day. If you score a critical hit on any of your attacks your ability activates for free (does not count toward your daily limit of bardic music).
Normal: It requires a standard action to activate a bardic music ability.
Finarin Panjoro
09-12-07, 10:27 AM :allalone:
bkdubs123
09-12-07, 05:13 PM Ah, I think what you need is:

Benefit: Whenever you hit with an attack you may use Bardic Music as an immediate action to activate Inspire Courage, Inspire Competence, Inspire Greatness or Inspire Heroics. On a charge attack the numeric values of your Bardic Music are increased by 1. On a critical hit you may activate your Bardic Music without expending one of your daily uses.

I added the extra charge bonus simply because a Bard should be rewarded for heroically charging into battle as otherwise he might seem crazy for doing that :D.

Oh, and finally, no, I don't think this is unbalancing at all. I think I'd just increase the BAB requirement to +3.
jaelis
09-12-07, 08:38 PM I like the idea. I definitely agree that it should be an immediate action. I don't know about the bonus from charging, it seems maybe a bit much. (Also, bards probably shouldn't be charging into combat, I don't know if they should really be rewarded when they do.)
Finarin Panjoro
09-13-07, 09:13 AM Thanks for the thoughtful replies,

Making it an immediate action is a bit of a power boost because its allowing them to activate it post success (use an immediate action after you hit, no risk of lost daily use). It would also let them activate it on a successful attack of opportunity since immediate actions can be taken outside your turn (though this uses up your immediate action for the coming turn). If I then leave in the free critical hit thing the feat essentially allows them to activate a bardic music ability for free with every critical hit (since they hit, learn if they got a critical first, then choose to activate).

It would then look something like this:
Inspiring Strike [General]
Your music and combat prowess inspire your allies to greater efforts.
Prerequisites: Bardic Music ability, BAB +2, Perform (song or oratory) 5 ranks
Benefit: When you make a successful melee attack you may activate one of your inspiring bardic music abilities (inspire courage, inspire competence, inspire greatness, or inspire heroics) as an immediate action. If you score a critical hit on your attack you may activate your ability without expending a daily use of bardic music.
Normal: It requires a standard action to activate a bardic music ability.

This seems like quite a power-up to me, thus I added the limiter to melee attacks. I'm tempted to remove the critical hit bonus since its so much easier to activate. I don't want to up the BAB because then its not available until 6th level which is later than I want it introduced into my game (I'm the DM). I want to reward bards who have focused on combat (which is a risky proposition for them at best) and I have one in the party now.
jaelis
09-13-07, 12:00 PM I think it's fine, though perhaps a swift action would make more sense than immediate. Risking the loss of the ability is a bummer, and since bards often miss a lot, it would make the feat a little unattractive.

I think the restriction to melee attacks is appropriate. You should probably be clear that activating it on a crit still takes a swift/immediate action though. (Saying it is "for free" might suggest it is a free action too.)

I think it is very nice.
Finarin Panjoro
09-13-07, 01:22 PM I think I'll go with this. I did revise it to clarify the critical hit thing. Thanks for your help.
Obsidianjaerc
09-18-07, 07:23 PM Swift rather than immediate.
BAB +3 rather than +2
Perform (any) rather than Perform (song) or (oratory).

Good.
wonlee76
09-19-07, 11:21 AM I like it but maybe make it use up 2 bardic song attempts in order to use the feat. The feat pre-reqs are meaningless for the PC that is intended to get the feat (perform, BAB and bardic music). It is a pretty decent increase in utility of bardic songs in combat (using bardic music without an action on a successful melee attack). So I peg it as a 2 bardic music attempts used per use of the feat, whether the melee attack hit or not.
Finarin Panjoro
09-19-07, 11:25 AM Inspiring Strike [General]
Your music and combat prowess inspire your allies to greater efforts.
Prerequisites: Bardic Music ability, BAB +2, Perform (any) 5 ranks
Benefit: When you make a successful melee attack you may activate one of your inspiring bardic music abilities (inspire courage, inspire competence, inspire greatness, or inspire heroics) as a swift action. If you score a critical hit on your attack you may activate your ability without expending a daily use of bardic music.
Normal: It requires a standard action to activate a bardic music ability.

Obsidieanjaerc,
I guess making it a swift action does make more sense. Then they can't activate it on an AoO which might allow them to activate two bardic music abilities in one turn (on on the AoO and then normally with a standard action on their turn) which is not my intention. And Perform (any) opens it up to all bards (though how they can make a melee attack while playing a mandolin is beyond me :) )

I'm keeping the BAB at +2 however because I want this to be available to bards at 3rd level.

wonlee76,
I considered that but I think that would make it too unattractive as a feat. As it is this feat is only useful to bards who intend to go into melee (which many of them don't by focusing on ranged combat, skills, or spellcasting). I'm still willing to consider this as a possibility but I feel like forcing the fairly vulnerable bard (light armor, low hit points) into melee to use it may already be enough of a restriction.

The prerequisites are meant to allow a straight bard or a multiclass fighter/bard to take it at 3rd level. A bard that multi-classes non-fighter (a rogue/bard, wiz/bard, clr/bard, etc) would not qualify for it due to the BAB restriction until later in their career.

Does anyone else think wonlee76's suggestion is the way to go. I could still be convinced.
Thanks for your help.
wonlee76
09-19-07, 12:17 PM wonlee76,
I considered that but I think that would make it too unattractive as a feat. As it is this feat is only useful to bards who intend to go into melee (which many of them don't by focusing on ranged combat, skills, or spellcasting). I'm still willing to consider this as a possibility but I feel like forcing the fairly vulnerable bard (light armor, low hit points) into melee to use it may already be enough of a restriction.

If a rogue can enter melee, I don't see the bard being any weaker in melee (at least on the taking damage aspect of melee). With Arcane Strike, a bard could compete with a rogue as melee damage type. Maybe not the greatest use of spell slots but the option is there.

Right now, I think the feat is "too" attractive. Toss a rapier on your bard and not only do I get to activate bardic music as a swift action but I have a chance of not even using up a bardic music attempt? Make it 2 bardic music attempts keeping the chance of using up none is my suggestion.

An alternative idea is to limit the bardic music benefit to the bard only whether or not the bardic music ability in question could effect multiple allies or not.
Finarin Panjoro
09-19-07, 01:51 PM In melee rogues have the advantage of dealing out large amounts of damage via sneak attack. I'm not familiar with Arcane Strike so I can't consider that as a balancing factor.

However I definitely see your both of your points. I think I'll revise it like this:

Inspiring Strike [General]
Your music and combat prowess inspire your allies to greater efforts.
Prerequisites: Bardic Music ability, BAB +2, Perform (any) 5 ranks
Benefit: When you make a successful melee attack you may activate one of your inspiring bardic music abilities (inspire courage, inspire competence, inspire greatness, or inspire heroics) as a swift action. It requires 2 daily uses of bardic music to activate an ability as a swift action. If you roll a natural 20 on your attack you may activate your ability without expending any daily uses of bardic music.
Normal: It requires a standard action to activate a bardic music ability.

This removes the issue of higher threat weapons making the ability easier to use for free, allows it to be used against foes not vulnerable to critical hits, and makes it so that the bard does not need to confirm his critical hit for it to work.

Thanks for your help.

Anyone else have an opinion on this?
wonlee76
09-19-07, 03:09 PM In melee rogues have the advantage of dealing out large amounts of damage via sneak attack. I'm not familiar with Arcane Strike so I can't consider that as a balancing factor.

Its a feat in Complete Warrior. Simply put, a spellcasting PC can sacrifice a spell slot for a bonus to hit and damage for 1 full round. The bonuses increase depending on the spell slot sacrificed. Pretty much a must have feat for a full time bard or fighter/wizard type.

However I definitely see your both of your points. I think I'll revise it like this:

Inspiring Strike [General]
Your music and combat prowess inspire your allies to greater efforts.
Prerequisites: Bardic Music ability, BAB +2, Perform (any) 5 ranks
Benefit: When you make a successful melee attack you may activate one of your inspiring bardic music abilities (inspire courage, inspire competence, inspire greatness, or inspire heroics) as a swift action. It requires 2 daily uses of bardic music to activate an ability as a swift action. If you roll a natural 20 on your attack you may activate your ability without expending any daily uses of bardic music.
Normal: It requires a standard action to activate a bardic music ability.

This removes the issue of higher threat weapons making the ability easier to use for free, allows it to be used against foes not vulnerable to critical hits, and makes it so that the bard does not need to confirm his critical hit for it to work.

I like this version. Its not "too" good but is attractive enough for a level 3 bard to want to take since it allows the bard to participate in fighting as well as using his bardic music abilities without sacrificing a standard action to do so. Gets the bard the opportunity to jump into the mix immediately instead of the usual first round using a bardic song to buff the group.
bkdubs123
09-19-07, 05:19 PM Oh, wait so you don't "spend" the bardic music before you attack? Like you hit in melee and then get to choose, "Hmm... do I want to spend 2 musics to inspire courage immediately or wait for it?"? If that is the case, then sure, 2 musics and the natural 20 without expending music is great.

If you have to choose before you attack, and can waste the music attempt then I'd say that spending 2 musics is severely unattractive.

Regardless, I really want that charge option that I suggested in, if only for flavor reasons (would it not be even more inspiring to see your minstrel friend charge into battle?).
Finarin Panjoro
09-19-07, 05:45 PM Yes that is correct, you hit and then choose. That prevents the miss and lose a daily use of bardic music problem.

I agree that a charging bard would be most inspiring, but I think that increasing the bonus of the ability in addition to the other things that this feat does (allow it as a swift action and possibly for free) is too much. Allowing a 3rd level bard to provide a +2 bonus for everyone whenever he charges just seems to powerful to me. Keep in mind he could be a barbarian/bard or fighter/bard in which case charging is a lot less scary (and more likely to succeed).

What if on a charge it only takes one use of bardic music to activate as a swift action (regardless of natural 20)? Would that satisfy your sense of flavor?
bkdubs123
09-19-07, 07:22 PM Hmm... yes. Yes it would. :D
Finarin Panjoro
09-20-07, 09:55 AM How's this?

Inspiring Strike [General]
Your music and combat prowess inspire your allies to greater efforts.
Prerequisites: Bardic Music ability, BAB +2, Perform (any) 5 ranks
Benefit: When you make a successful melee attack you may activate one of your inspiring bardic music abilities (inspire courage, inspire competence, inspire greatness, or inspire heroics) as a swift action. It requires 2 daily uses of bardic music to activate an ability as a swift action with two exceptions. If used following a successful charge attack only 1 daily use of bardic music is required to activate an ability. If you roll a natural 20 on your attack (whether part of a charge or not) you may activate your ability without expending any daily uses of bardic music.
Normal: It requires a standard action to activate a bardic music ability.

I think you were right. I like that this encourages the bard to charge into battle.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Finarin Panjoro 09-10-07, 02:22 PM	Anyone see anything inherently wrong or unbalancing to this feat. I'm about to make it available in my campaign (I'm the DM) and I have a bard/fighter that is very likely to take it at the first opportunity (since she's been asking for a way to use bardic music without sacrificing her ability to attack). Inspiring Strike [General] Your music and combat prowess inspire your allies to greater efforts. Prerequisites: Bardic Music ability, BAB +2, Perform (song or oratory) 5 ranks Benefit: In any round that you take an attack, full attack, or charge action you may also activate one of your inspiring bardic music abilities (inspire courage, inspire competence, inspire greatness, or inspire heroics). At least one of your attacks must succeed (hit, not necessarily deal damage) in order for your ability to activate. If all of your attacks miss you still expend one bardic music use for the day. If you score a critical hit on any of your attacks your ability activates for free (does not count toward your daily limit of bardic music). Normal: It requires a standard action to activate a bardic music ability.
Finarin Panjoro 09-12-07, 10:27 AM	:allalone:
bkdubs123 09-12-07, 05:13 PM	Ah, I think what you need is: Benefit: Whenever you hit with an attack you may use Bardic Music as an immediate action to activate Inspire Courage, Inspire Competence, Inspire Greatness or Inspire Heroics. On a charge attack the numeric values of your Bardic Music are increased by 1. On a critical hit you may activate your Bardic Music without expending one of your daily uses. I added the extra charge bonus simply because a Bard should be rewarded for heroically charging into battle as otherwise he might seem crazy for doing that :D. Oh, and finally, no, I don't think this is unbalancing at all. I think I'd just increase the BAB requirement to +3.
jaelis 09-12-07, 08:38 PM	I like the idea. I definitely agree that it should be an immediate action. I don't know about the bonus from charging, it seems maybe a bit much. (Also, bards probably shouldn't be charging into combat, I don't know if they should really be rewarded when they do.)
Finarin Panjoro 09-13-07, 09:13 AM	Thanks for the thoughtful replies, Making it an immediate action is a bit of a power boost because its allowing them to activate it post success (use an immediate action after you hit, no risk of lost daily use). It would also let them activate it on a successful attack of opportunity since immediate actions can be taken outside your turn (though this uses up your immediate action for the coming turn). If I then leave in the free critical hit thing the feat essentially allows them to activate a bardic music ability for free with every critical hit (since they hit, learn if they got a critical first, then choose to activate). It would then look something like this: Inspiring Strike [General] Your music and combat prowess inspire your allies to greater efforts. Prerequisites: Bardic Music ability, BAB +2, Perform (song or oratory) 5 ranks Benefit: When you make a successful melee attack you may activate one of your inspiring bardic music abilities (inspire courage, inspire competence, inspire greatness, or inspire heroics) as an immediate action. If you score a critical hit on your attack you may activate your ability without expending a daily use of bardic music. Normal: It requires a standard action to activate a bardic music ability. This seems like quite a power-up to me, thus I added the limiter to melee attacks. I'm tempted to remove the critical hit bonus since its so much easier to activate. I don't want to up the BAB because then its not available until 6th level which is later than I want it introduced into my game (I'm the DM). I want to reward bards who have focused on combat (which is a risky proposition for them at best) and I have one in the party now.
jaelis 09-13-07, 12:00 PM	I think it's fine, though perhaps a swift action would make more sense than immediate. Risking the loss of the ability is a bummer, and since bards often miss a lot, it would make the feat a little unattractive. I think the restriction to melee attacks is appropriate. You should probably be clear that activating it on a crit still takes a swift/immediate action though. (Saying it is "for free" might suggest it is a free action too.) I think it is very nice.
Finarin Panjoro 09-13-07, 01:22 PM	I think I'll go with this. I did revise it to clarify the critical hit thing. Thanks for your help.
Obsidianjaerc 09-18-07, 07:23 PM	Swift rather than immediate. BAB +3 rather than +2 Perform (any) rather than Perform (song) or (oratory). Good.
wonlee76 09-19-07, 11:21 AM	I like it but maybe make it use up 2 bardic song attempts in order to use the feat. The feat pre-reqs are meaningless for the PC that is intended to get the feat (perform, BAB and bardic music). It is a pretty decent increase in utility of bardic songs in combat (using bardic music without an action on a successful melee attack). So I peg it as a 2 bardic music attempts used per use of the feat, whether the melee attack hit or not.
Finarin Panjoro 09-19-07, 11:25 AM	Inspiring Strike [General] Your music and combat prowess inspire your allies to greater efforts. Prerequisites: Bardic Music ability, BAB +2, Perform (any) 5 ranks Benefit: When you make a successful melee attack you may activate one of your inspiring bardic music abilities (inspire courage, inspire competence, inspire greatness, or inspire heroics) as a swift action. If you score a critical hit on your attack you may activate your ability without expending a daily use of bardic music. Normal: It requires a standard action to activate a bardic music ability. Obsidieanjaerc, I guess making it a swift action does make more sense. Then they can't activate it on an AoO which might allow them to activate two bardic music abilities in one turn (on on the AoO and then normally with a standard action on their turn) which is not my intention. And Perform (any) opens it up to all bards (though how they can make a melee attack while playing a mandolin is beyond me :) ) I'm keeping the BAB at +2 however because I want this to be available to bards at 3rd level. wonlee76, I considered that but I think that would make it too unattractive as a feat. As it is this feat is only useful to bards who intend to go into melee (which many of them don't by focusing on ranged combat, skills, or spellcasting). I'm still willing to consider this as a possibility but I feel like forcing the fairly vulnerable bard (light armor, low hit points) into melee to use it may already be enough of a restriction. The prerequisites are meant to allow a straight bard or a multiclass fighter/bard to take it at 3rd level. A bard that multi-classes non-fighter (a rogue/bard, wiz/bard, clr/bard, etc) would not qualify for it due to the BAB restriction until later in their career. Does anyone else think wonlee76's suggestion is the way to go. I could still be convinced. Thanks for your help.
wonlee76 09-19-07, 12:17 PM	wonlee76, I considered that but I think that would make it too unattractive as a feat. As it is this feat is only useful to bards who intend to go into melee (which many of them don't by focusing on ranged combat, skills, or spellcasting). I'm still willing to consider this as a possibility but I feel like forcing the fairly vulnerable bard (light armor, low hit points) into melee to use it may already be enough of a restriction. If a rogue can enter melee, I don't see the bard being any weaker in melee (at least on the taking damage aspect of melee). With Arcane Strike, a bard could compete with a rogue as melee damage type. Maybe not the greatest use of spell slots but the option is there. Right now, I think the feat is "too" attractive. Toss a rapier on your bard and not only do I get to activate bardic music as a swift action but I have a chance of not even using up a bardic music attempt? Make it 2 bardic music attempts keeping the chance of using up none is my suggestion. An alternative idea is to limit the bardic music benefit to the bard only whether or not the bardic music ability in question could effect multiple allies or not.
Finarin Panjoro 09-19-07, 01:51 PM	In melee rogues have the advantage of dealing out large amounts of damage via sneak attack. I'm not familiar with Arcane Strike so I can't consider that as a balancing factor. However I definitely see your both of your points. I think I'll revise it like this: Inspiring Strike [General] Your music and combat prowess inspire your allies to greater efforts. Prerequisites: Bardic Music ability, BAB +2, Perform (any) 5 ranks Benefit: When you make a successful melee attack you may activate one of your inspiring bardic music abilities (inspire courage, inspire competence, inspire greatness, or inspire heroics) as a swift action. It requires 2 daily uses of bardic music to activate an ability as a swift action. If you roll a natural 20 on your attack you may activate your ability without expending any daily uses of bardic music. Normal: It requires a standard action to activate a bardic music ability. This removes the issue of higher threat weapons making the ability easier to use for free, allows it to be used against foes not vulnerable to critical hits, and makes it so that the bard does not need to confirm his critical hit for it to work. Thanks for your help. Anyone else have an opinion on this?
wonlee76 09-19-07, 03:09 PM	In melee rogues have the advantage of dealing out large amounts of damage via sneak attack. I'm not familiar with Arcane Strike so I can't consider that as a balancing factor. Its a feat in Complete Warrior. Simply put, a spellcasting PC can sacrifice a spell slot for a bonus to hit and damage for 1 full round. The bonuses increase depending on the spell slot sacrificed. Pretty much a must have feat for a full time bard or fighter/wizard type. However I definitely see your both of your points. I think I'll revise it like this: Inspiring Strike [General] Your music and combat prowess inspire your allies to greater efforts. Prerequisites: Bardic Music ability, BAB +2, Perform (any) 5 ranks Benefit: When you make a successful melee attack you may activate one of your inspiring bardic music abilities (inspire courage, inspire competence, inspire greatness, or inspire heroics) as a swift action. It requires 2 daily uses of bardic music to activate an ability as a swift action. If you roll a natural 20 on your attack you may activate your ability without expending any daily uses of bardic music. Normal: It requires a standard action to activate a bardic music ability. This removes the issue of higher threat weapons making the ability easier to use for free, allows it to be used against foes not vulnerable to critical hits, and makes it so that the bard does not need to confirm his critical hit for it to work. I like this version. Its not "too" good but is attractive enough for a level 3 bard to want to take since it allows the bard to participate in fighting as well as using his bardic music abilities without sacrificing a standard action to do so. Gets the bard the opportunity to jump into the mix immediately instead of the usual first round using a bardic song to buff the group.
bkdubs123 09-19-07, 05:19 PM	Oh, wait so you don't "spend" the bardic music before you attack? Like you hit in melee and then get to choose, "Hmm... do I want to spend 2 musics to inspire courage immediately or wait for it?"? If that is the case, then sure, 2 musics and the natural 20 without expending music is great. If you have to choose before you attack, and can waste the music attempt then I'd say that spending 2 musics is severely unattractive. Regardless, I really want that charge option that I suggested in, if only for flavor reasons (would it not be even more inspiring to see your minstrel friend charge into battle?).
Finarin Panjoro 09-19-07, 05:45 PM	Yes that is correct, you hit and then choose. That prevents the miss and lose a daily use of bardic music problem. I agree that a charging bard would be most inspiring, but I think that increasing the bonus of the ability in addition to the other things that this feat does (allow it as a swift action and possibly for free) is too much. Allowing a 3rd level bard to provide a +2 bonus for everyone whenever he charges just seems to powerful to me. Keep in mind he could be a barbarian/bard or fighter/bard in which case charging is a lot less scary (and more likely to succeed). What if on a charge it only takes one use of bardic music to activate as a swift action (regardless of natural 20)? Would that satisfy your sense of flavor?
bkdubs123 09-19-07, 07:22 PM	Hmm... yes. Yes it would. :D
Finarin Panjoro 09-20-07, 09:55 AM	How's this? Inspiring Strike [General] Your music and combat prowess inspire your allies to greater efforts. Prerequisites: Bardic Music ability, BAB +2, Perform (any) 5 ranks Benefit: When you make a successful melee attack you may activate one of your inspiring bardic music abilities (inspire courage, inspire competence, inspire greatness, or inspire heroics) as a swift action. It requires 2 daily uses of bardic music to activate an ability as a swift action with two exceptions. If used following a successful charge attack only 1 daily use of bardic music is required to activate an ability. If you roll a natural 20 on your attack (whether part of a charge or not) you may activate your ability without expending any daily uses of bardic music. Normal: It requires a standard action to activate a bardic music ability. I think you were right. I like that this encourages the bard to charge into battle.