New Feat: Mobile Manifesting [Archive] - Wizards Community

New Feat: Mobile Manifesting [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
pukunui
07-22-07, 05:06 PM Hi all,

In conjunction with a player of mine, I've come up with a new psionic feat based off the Mobile Spellcasting feat from Complete Adventurer. I have had some feedback from the psionics boards people, but I thought I would present it here for comments/criticism.

Mobile Manifesting [PSIONIC]
Your focused concentration allows you to move while manifesting a power.
Prerequisite: Concentration 8 ranks, Dodge, Mobility
Benefit: You can make a special Concentration check (DC 20 + power level) when manifesting a power. If the check succeeds, you can manifest the power and move up to your speed as a single standard action. (You can't use this ability to manifest a power that takes longer than 1 standard action to manifest.) If the check fails, so does the power just as if you had failed a Concentration check to manifest defensively. You still provoke attacks of opportunity as normal, and you can choose to manifest defensively, but it increases the Concentration check to DC 25 + power level.

To be fair, I would also add Dodge and Mobility to the prerequisites for Mobile Spellcasting as well.

I'm also considering lowering the Concentration DCs.

What do you all think?

Thanks,
Jonathan
Kyrian
07-22-07, 08:01 PM Don't add the dodge or mobility prereq for either one.

The DC for both Mobile Manifesting and Mobile Spellcasting are high enough that most characters aren't going to risk their power (or spell) not going off just for the extra move until higher levels.

You'd need a Con of 18 and to be 4th level, having maxed out Concentration just for a 50% chance of the most basic power going off. If you compare it to some of the other things a character could be doing with that same feat; its not worth the extra prereq.

Its one of the better types of feats; useful enough for certain character builds, but not overpowered.
Nom
07-22-07, 11:16 PM Don't add the dodge or mobility prereq for either one.

The DC for both Mobile Manifesting and Mobile Spellcasting are high enough that most characters aren't going to risk their power (or spell) not going off just for the extra move until higher levels.I don't understand how the justification fits the claim. "It's hard to do until you are mid-level, at which point the DCs become quite easy" doesn't inherently make any difference as to whether there should be pre-reqs or not. This would only be relevant if you could show that it provided significant benefit at low levels and minimal benefit at high levels. If it provides signficant benefit at high levels then the pre-reqs make sense, because they (1) increase the cost and (2) bump up how soon you can take it.
ZapRowsdower
07-23-07, 12:06 AM I don't understand how the justification fits the claim. "It's hard to do until you are mid-level, at which point the DCs become quite easy" doesn't inherently make any difference as to whether there should be pre-reqs or not. This would only be relevant if you could show that it provided significant benefit at low levels and minimal benefit at high levels. If it provides signficant benefit at high levels then the pre-reqs make sense, because they (1) increase the cost and (2) bump up how soon you can take it.

Adding a bunch of Feat requirements to a Feat that is fairly marginal to begin with makes people not want to take it. A feat that nobody wants to take is worthless.

What's wrong with deciding at 10th level that you want to move and cast and not have to have taken dodge and mobility (which have less utility for a caster than a melee combatant)

I would stick with the pre-req of combat casting, same as Mobile Spellcasting.
Nom
07-23-07, 02:23 AM Adding a bunch of Feat requirements to a Feat that is fairly marginal to begin with makes people not want to take it. A feat that nobody wants to take is worthless.

What's wrong with deciding at 10th level that you want to move and cast and not have to have taken dodge and mobility (which have less utility for a caster than a melee combatant)

I would stick with the pre-req of combat casting, same as Mobile Spellcasting.Nothing is wrong with any of the above. Except that Kouk only argued that it wasn't reliable enough to be useful at low levels, which is irrelevant when talking mid-high levels.

I actually don't know how useful it would be at high levels. However, it is mechanically superior to Shot on the Run or Flyby Attack for spellcasting. SotR allows you to part move-ranged attack-part move, with total move limited to your normal rate. Flyby attack allows you to part move-standard action-part move, with otherwise the same restrictions. Mobile Spellcasting Manifesting (as written above) allows you to move-cast-move or cast-move-move, with each move being limited to
your normal rate. That's objectively superior to the above feats.

The cost of MS/MM is that it requires a Concentration check rather than feat pre-reqs. Frankly, it's a Concentration check that any serious caster should be able to trivially make by perhaps 10th level, certainly 15th. Thus, the questions should be "at 10th or 15th level, how much benefit is gained from move-cast-move or cast-move-move?" and "how does this compare to the benefit gained from SotR or Flyby Attack at a comparable level?".
pukunui
07-23-07, 03:35 AM First off, Mobile Spellcasting does not have Combat Casting as a prerequisite. All it requires is 8 ranks in Concentration. However, perhaps I should make Combat Casting a prerequisite instead of Dodge and Mobility. How would that seem?

Also, one of my players is running an old elan transmuter 1 / egoist 6 (ECL 7). He only has a 13 CON but he's got a tunic of steady spellcasting that more than makes up for that. His Concentration modifier is currently +15. The Concentration check for his Mobile Manifesting isn't guaranteed but it's still pretty easy for him to succeed.
ZapRowsdower
07-23-07, 04:29 AM Nothing is wrong with any of the above. Except that Kouk only argued that it wasn't reliable enough to be useful at low levels, which is irrelevant when talking mid-high levels.

My (and probably Kyrian's) reasoning is:
Feat is crappy at low levels because it can't be used reliably
Feat is still sorta crappy at mid/high levels because there are better feats comparatively.
Feat is crappy because it has 2 feat requirements
THEREFORE
Feat is crappy overall.

PARTIAL SOLUTION:
remove feat requirements to make it less crappy

The fact that it isn't good at low levels doesn't directly lead to the fact that it should lose its requirements; rather, the lack of strength at lower levels contributes to its overall lousiness.

Frankly, it's a Concentration check that any serious caster should be able to trivially make by perhaps 10th level, certainly 15th.

A psion 10 with 18 Con and maxed Concentration (13 ranks) will have a modifier of +17, and will lose his power 15% of the time. This isn't that great of a payoff for investing in the 3 feat chain.

However, it is mechanically superior to Shot on the Run or Flyby Attack for spellcasting.
"how does this compare to the benefit gained from SotR or Flyby Attack at a comparable level?".

A better question is "Does this feat stacks up to other feats that a caster/manifester at a similar level?" and whether you can get better stuff than dodge and mobility for your other levels.

I'm not very familiar with psionics feats but I heard that Expanded Knowledge is a big one and metapsionics are also pretty good.

Mobile Spellcasting (which is also affected by the outside change), a wizard will have available to him Spell Focus, Improved Spell Focus, Improved Initiative, Spell Penetration, Improved Spell Penetration, Metamagic Feats, Item Creation Feats, and even stuff that I wouldn't normally take like Weapon Focus (ray), Improved Familiar, Combat Expertise.

Allowing outside books, particularly Complete Arcane or some Psionics book, will REALLY make me want to take some other feat than Mobile Manifesting/Spellcasting.

First off, Mobile Spellcasting does not have Combat Casting as a prerequisite. All it requires is 8 ranks in Concentration. However, perhaps I should make Combat Casting a prerequisite instead of Dodge and Mobility. How would that seem?

I think that would be better. Dodge and Mobility are more suited for rogues and fighter-types, I think. But best would be to remove the feat requirement. Are you adding a requirement because you think it's overpowered?

Also, one of my players is running an old elan transmuter 1 / egoist 6 (ECL 7). He only has a 13 CON but he's got a tunic of steady spellcasting that more than makes up for that. His Concentration modifier is currently +15. The Concentration check for his Mobile Manifesting isn't guaranteed but it's still pretty easy for him to succeed.

Even with a mod of +15 (thanks to a useful item) he will lose whatever power he manifests while using at least 25% of the time, more for higher level powers. That isn't good from a fun or strength standpoint. The reason why you don't see wizards running around in regular chain shirts is that losing your spell even 20% of the time (to Arcane Spell Failure) can cut into your combat effectiveness.
pukunui
07-23-07, 04:53 AM I think that would be better. Dodge and Mobility are more suited for rogues and fighter-types, I think. But best would be to remove the feat requirement. Are you adding a requirement because you think it's overpowered?Yes. Or at least, some of the people over on the psionics board thought it was overpowered without adding Dodge and Mobility. They also advocated lowering the DC though. However, now that I think about it, Combat Casting seems to make more sense.
tarkin
07-23-07, 11:15 AM The general rule is as follows:

If it grants BOTH the move/act/move ability AND the no AoO protecitony of Spring Attack, then it needs a lot of pre-reqs.

This feat only grants the move/act/move ability, wihtout the AoO protection.

As such, it does not need the Dodge/Mobility combo as pre-reqs.
Nom
07-23-07, 11:37 PM The general rule is as follows:

If it grants BOTH the move/act/move ability AND the no AoO protecitony of Spring Attack, then it needs a lot of pre-reqs.

This feat only grants the move/act/move ability, wihtout the AoO protection.

As such, it does not need the Dodge/Mobility combo as pre-reqs.So how do you explain Shot on the Run?

Of course, it's entirely possible that SotR has pre-reqs way too high for it's benefit. But I'd like to see some sort of objective analysis of the value or lack there of of being able to cast either at the start of or half way through a double move.

Of course, you can already do move-cast-move while mounted at DC 10+SL, plus whatever Ride checks are needed.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
pukunui 07-22-07, 05:06 PM	Hi all, In conjunction with a player of mine, I've come up with a new psionic feat based off the Mobile Spellcasting feat from Complete Adventurer. I have had some feedback from the psionics boards people, but I thought I would present it here for comments/criticism. Mobile Manifesting [PSIONIC] Your focused concentration allows you to move while manifesting a power. Prerequisite: Concentration 8 ranks, Dodge, Mobility Benefit: You can make a special Concentration check (DC 20 + power level) when manifesting a power. If the check succeeds, you can manifest the power and move up to your speed as a single standard action. (You can't use this ability to manifest a power that takes longer than 1 standard action to manifest.) If the check fails, so does the power just as if you had failed a Concentration check to manifest defensively. You still provoke attacks of opportunity as normal, and you can choose to manifest defensively, but it increases the Concentration check to DC 25 + power level. To be fair, I would also add Dodge and Mobility to the prerequisites for Mobile Spellcasting as well. I'm also considering lowering the Concentration DCs. What do you all think? Thanks, Jonathan
Kyrian 07-22-07, 08:01 PM	Don't add the dodge or mobility prereq for either one. The DC for both Mobile Manifesting and Mobile Spellcasting are high enough that most characters aren't going to risk their power (or spell) not going off just for the extra move until higher levels. You'd need a Con of 18 and to be 4th level, having maxed out Concentration just for a 50% chance of the most basic power going off. If you compare it to some of the other things a character could be doing with that same feat; its not worth the extra prereq. Its one of the better types of feats; useful enough for certain character builds, but not overpowered.
Nom 07-22-07, 11:16 PM	Don't add the dodge or mobility prereq for either one. The DC for both Mobile Manifesting and Mobile Spellcasting are high enough that most characters aren't going to risk their power (or spell) not going off just for the extra move until higher levels.I don't understand how the justification fits the claim. "It's hard to do until you are mid-level, at which point the DCs become quite easy" doesn't inherently make any difference as to whether there should be pre-reqs or not. This would only be relevant if you could show that it provided significant benefit at low levels and minimal benefit at high levels. If it provides signficant benefit at high levels then the pre-reqs make sense, because they (1) increase the cost and (2) bump up how soon you can take it.
ZapRowsdower 07-23-07, 12:06 AM	I don't understand how the justification fits the claim. "It's hard to do until you are mid-level, at which point the DCs become quite easy" doesn't inherently make any difference as to whether there should be pre-reqs or not. This would only be relevant if you could show that it provided significant benefit at low levels and minimal benefit at high levels. If it provides signficant benefit at high levels then the pre-reqs make sense, because they (1) increase the cost and (2) bump up how soon you can take it. Adding a bunch of Feat requirements to a Feat that is fairly marginal to begin with makes people not want to take it. A feat that nobody wants to take is worthless. What's wrong with deciding at 10th level that you want to move and cast and not have to have taken dodge and mobility (which have less utility for a caster than a melee combatant) I would stick with the pre-req of combat casting, same as Mobile Spellcasting.
Nom 07-23-07, 02:23 AM	Adding a bunch of Feat requirements to a Feat that is fairly marginal to begin with makes people not want to take it. A feat that nobody wants to take is worthless. What's wrong with deciding at 10th level that you want to move and cast and not have to have taken dodge and mobility (which have less utility for a caster than a melee combatant) I would stick with the pre-req of combat casting, same as Mobile Spellcasting.Nothing is wrong with any of the above. Except that Kouk only argued that it wasn't reliable enough to be useful at low levels, which is irrelevant when talking mid-high levels. I actually don't know how useful it would be at high levels. However, it is mechanically superior to Shot on the Run or Flyby Attack for spellcasting. SotR allows you to part move-ranged attack-part move, with total move limited to your normal rate. Flyby attack allows you to part move-standard action-part move, with otherwise the same restrictions. Mobile Spellcasting Manifesting (as written above) allows you to move-cast-move or cast-move-move, with each move being limited to your normal rate. That's objectively superior to the above feats. The cost of MS/MM is that it requires a Concentration check rather than feat pre-reqs. Frankly, it's a Concentration check that any serious caster should be able to trivially make by perhaps 10th level, certainly 15th. Thus, the questions should be "at 10th or 15th level, how much benefit is gained from move-cast-move or cast-move-move?" and "how does this compare to the benefit gained from SotR or Flyby Attack at a comparable level?".
pukunui 07-23-07, 03:35 AM	First off, Mobile Spellcasting does not have Combat Casting as a prerequisite. All it requires is 8 ranks in Concentration. However, perhaps I should make Combat Casting a prerequisite instead of Dodge and Mobility. How would that seem? Also, one of my players is running an old elan transmuter 1 / egoist 6 (ECL 7). He only has a 13 CON but he's got a tunic of steady spellcasting that more than makes up for that. His Concentration modifier is currently +15. The Concentration check for his Mobile Manifesting isn't guaranteed but it's still pretty easy for him to succeed.
ZapRowsdower 07-23-07, 04:29 AM	Nothing is wrong with any of the above. Except that Kouk only argued that it wasn't reliable enough to be useful at low levels, which is irrelevant when talking mid-high levels. My (and probably Kyrian's) reasoning is: Feat is crappy at low levels because it can't be used reliably Feat is still sorta crappy at mid/high levels because there are better feats comparatively. Feat is crappy because it has 2 feat requirements THEREFORE Feat is crappy overall. PARTIAL SOLUTION: remove feat requirements to make it less crappy The fact that it isn't good at low levels doesn't directly lead to the fact that it should lose its requirements; rather, the lack of strength at lower levels contributes to its overall lousiness. Frankly, it's a Concentration check that any serious caster should be able to trivially make by perhaps 10th level, certainly 15th. A psion 10 with 18 Con and maxed Concentration (13 ranks) will have a modifier of +17, and will lose his power 15% of the time. This isn't that great of a payoff for investing in the 3 feat chain. However, it is mechanically superior to Shot on the Run or Flyby Attack for spellcasting. "how does this compare to the benefit gained from SotR or Flyby Attack at a comparable level?". A better question is "Does this feat stacks up to other feats that a caster/manifester at a similar level?" and whether you can get better stuff than dodge and mobility for your other levels. I'm not very familiar with psionics feats but I heard that Expanded Knowledge is a big one and metapsionics are also pretty good. Mobile Spellcasting (which is also affected by the outside change), a wizard will have available to him Spell Focus, Improved Spell Focus, Improved Initiative, Spell Penetration, Improved Spell Penetration, Metamagic Feats, Item Creation Feats, and even stuff that I wouldn't normally take like Weapon Focus (ray), Improved Familiar, Combat Expertise. Allowing outside books, particularly Complete Arcane or some Psionics book, will REALLY make me want to take some other feat than Mobile Manifesting/Spellcasting. First off, Mobile Spellcasting does not have Combat Casting as a prerequisite. All it requires is 8 ranks in Concentration. However, perhaps I should make Combat Casting a prerequisite instead of Dodge and Mobility. How would that seem? I think that would be better. Dodge and Mobility are more suited for rogues and fighter-types, I think. But best would be to remove the feat requirement. Are you adding a requirement because you think it's overpowered? Also, one of my players is running an old elan transmuter 1 / egoist 6 (ECL 7). He only has a 13 CON but he's got a tunic of steady spellcasting that more than makes up for that. His Concentration modifier is currently +15. The Concentration check for his Mobile Manifesting isn't guaranteed but it's still pretty easy for him to succeed. Even with a mod of +15 (thanks to a useful item) he will lose whatever power he manifests while using at least 25% of the time, more for higher level powers. That isn't good from a fun or strength standpoint. The reason why you don't see wizards running around in regular chain shirts is that losing your spell even 20% of the time (to Arcane Spell Failure) can cut into your combat effectiveness.
pukunui 07-23-07, 04:53 AM	I think that would be better. Dodge and Mobility are more suited for rogues and fighter-types, I think. But best would be to remove the feat requirement. Are you adding a requirement because you think it's overpowered?Yes. Or at least, some of the people over on the psionics board thought it was overpowered without adding Dodge and Mobility. They also advocated lowering the DC though. However, now that I think about it, Combat Casting seems to make more sense.
tarkin 07-23-07, 11:15 AM	The general rule is as follows: If it grants BOTH the move/act/move ability AND the no AoO protecitony of Spring Attack, then it needs a lot of pre-reqs. This feat only grants the move/act/move ability, wihtout the AoO protection. As such, it does not need the Dodge/Mobility combo as pre-reqs.
Nom 07-23-07, 11:37 PM	The general rule is as follows: If it grants BOTH the move/act/move ability AND the no AoO protecitony of Spring Attack, then it needs a lot of pre-reqs. This feat only grants the move/act/move ability, wihtout the AoO protection. As such, it does not need the Dodge/Mobility combo as pre-reqs.So how do you explain Shot on the Run? Of course, it's entirely possible that SotR has pre-reqs way too high for it's benefit. But I'd like to see some sort of objective analysis of the value or lack there of of being able to cast either at the start of or half way through a double move. Of course, you can already do move-cast-move while mounted at DC 10+SL, plus whatever Ride checks are needed.