Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Kouk 05-03-07, 02:36 AM	Here is a homebrew feat which allows the Monk class to get as much use from weaponry as they do from their Unarmed Strikes. Please evaluate if you can. Monastic Weapon Mastery Your monk order trains students in the use of special weapons equally as much as in unarmed combat techniques. Your capability to deal damage with a special monk weapon improves at the same rate as your unarmed strike. Prerequisites: Weapon Proficiency with selected weapon, Weapon Focus with selected weapon, Unarmed Strike class feature. Benefits: Choose a special melee monk weapon. The damage you deal with this weapon improves by one step at every level your Unarmed Strike damage normally does (4th, 8th, 12th and 2th level). Use the following progression: 1d3, 1d4, 1d6, 1d8, 1d10, 2d6, 2d8, 2d10, 3d8, 3d10. Normal: A character without this feat always does the normal listed damage with weapons, regardless of monk level. Special: A Monk may select Monastic Weapon Mastery as his bonus feat at 2nd level, even if he does not meet the other prerequisites. Most of us know that a Monk's unarmed damage progresses based on level. A medium Monk starts with 1d6, then 1d8, 1d10, 2d6, 2d8 and finally 2d10 at level 20. Now, monks also have proficiency with a variety of "cool" weapons, but their damage is set no matter what level the monk is. The benefits for a monk to ever use a weapon other than his fists, is if he needs to overcome a particular creature's DR (a kama for slashing damage against zombies or silver for lycanthropes), a special situation (a siangham for piercing damage under water), if the Monk focuses on tripping/disarming, or if the weapon is enchanted in such a way that it provides a needed type of damage (such as fire) or is just so incredibly powerfully enchanted that it can actually deal more damage than the unarmed strike (+3 Flaming, Shocking, Frost, Keen Kama etc). In my experience, these things come up very rarely if at all, and the majority of the time a Monk is better off using his unarmed damage, even if what he is fighting has some damage reduction to bludgeoning or non-special material because of the other feats like Weapon Focus improving chance to hit, Versatile Unarmed Strike dealing different types of damage, and the rarity of such fights, which allows the monk to trip or grapple while his companions finish off the monster without providing much motivation for investing in a magic nunchaku, kama or other weaponry. In the MIC there is the Scorpion Kama, a pretty standard +1 kama except for an ability which allows you to use your unarmed damage if it is higher. Now, once a monk reaches level 8, his unarmed damage is higher (at level 4 it is about the same). I think there should be some way for an order of monks to focus on weapons use for at least flavor reasons, and still be just as effective at dealing damage (not more or less) as monks that focus only on fists. My reasoning for the current feat is that only monks or other classes that get tiered unarmed strike progression would benefit first of all. Second, if using only the standard (appropriately sized) melee monk special weapons (kama, siangham, sai, nunchaku, quarterstaff) damage is almost identical to unarmed strike at level 1 (1d6/x2). So, for the benefits of being able to get the little bonuses to skills like trip for kama, disarm for sai, and easily being able to enchant the weapons, you sacrifice 2 to 3 feats. Those feats could otherwise be used for some useful things like Dodge, Weapon Finesse, Combat Reflexes, Superior Unarmed Strike (or Improved Natural Attack if you allow it), Fiery Fist etc. Stunning attacks also can't be delivered with weapons, barring certain other feats. If you use feats for "bigger" weapons, such as Exotic Proficiency with the three-section-staff from AaEG/OA or the feats like Whirling Steel Strike from EBC that lets you use a longsword as a special monk weapon, you have already invested another feat in being allowed to use those weapons to qualify for Monastic Weapon Mastery. Now, please give me some feedback on if/how this can be abused, if/why it is overpowered, and some tips on the wording of the feat to make it more clear. Also, if something like this exists already, please let me know. Thanks!:D
Rulebook 05-03-07, 02:43 AM	how can it be abused? would you let your fighters wield 2d10 damage longswords with only a single feat? there's a very solid reason why monk unarmed scales, and monk weapons enchant.
Kouk 05-03-07, 02:49 AM	how can it be abused? would you let your fighters wield 2d10 damage longswords with only a single feat? there's a very solid reason why monk unarmed scales, and monk weapons enchant. Well, it originally required flurry of blows class feature but I changed it to Unarmed Strike class feature (if that is considered a feature) so that non-monks can't take it, with the exception of some other classes that may operate similarly to monks such as prestige classes or some other homebrew things people have made. Flurry didn't make total sense as a requirement to me. The scaling only happens if your Unarmed Strike damage would increase, so if you just dip one level of Monk you gain no benefit at all, you have to take at least 4 levels to see any increase in damage. I see what you mean though, if you consider the first level of monk to be increasing your unarmed damage, but I took it to mean that just improving your unarmed damage was not the same as improving Unarmed Strike. If a Monk took this as a level 2 bonus feat, he would get no immediate benefit (that's the idea at least) but he would avoid having to take the Combat Reflexes or Deflect Arrows so he could choose his level 3 feat as something else than choosing Weapon Focus if he wanted to gain the benefit of this feat when it first applies (level 4).
Kouk 05-03-07, 02:57 AM	I've edited it now to be more specific about when the damage increases happen: 4th, 8th, 12th and 20th level.
Kouk 05-03-07, 05:38 PM	That balanced huh? No comments?
Krusk 05-03-07, 05:51 PM	Your feat looks pretty overpowered just reading it over. Just looks too easy to break. on the otherhand a rule my group uses you might find interesting. Feat PRereq- monk lvl 1st, proficiency with selected weapon. benifit- The monk may treat the selected weapon as a monk weapon for the purpose of flurry of blows. normal- a monk may only flurry with special monk weapons or unarmed strikes. Lets you have cool monks who are more like the monks from kung-fu movies that flurry with all sorts of swords and spears and such.
Kouk 05-03-07, 07:31 PM	OK fine, but can you tell me what is wrong with it? I would like to have the idea work even if the whole thing has to be changed.
Rulebook 05-03-07, 08:52 PM	i wasnt talking about giving this feat to fighters. i mean in general. would you let a fighter use a 2d10 longsword with a single feat? whats wrong with it? it dosent need to exist. why should monks get the strongest weapons in the game?
Kouk 05-03-07, 09:59 PM	whats wrong with it? it dosent need to exist. why should monks get the strongest weapons in the game? I was under the impression they already had the strongest weapons in terms of base damage, by using no weapons? A level 20 Monk does normally 2d10 damage with each unarmed strike. The weapon isn't actually any stronger it is just being used with more skill. Maybe a slower progression would be better? Or limit it to just the 1d6 base damage weaponry? Completely replace the monk unarmed progression so only the weapon would improve? I am just trying to address that there are about 10 weapons that nobody will ever touch because only monks normally have proficiency and they have no reason to use them after level 4. I don't want a weapon to be a handicap for monks, or just a special tool they use 3 times in a campaign. What would you suggest? Hmm, maybe better bonuses for what the weapons are good at when used by monks? Instead of +2 to Trip, maybe a high level monk gets +6 to trip with a kama? Oh well.
Part-Human2 05-04-07, 02:16 AM	A fighter taking Monkey Grip, Weapon Specialization, and Greater Weapon Specialization feat will get +5 to +8ish more damage per hit by 20th level. With your 1 feat, a 20th level monk does 2d8 (using a quarterstaff) or approximately +1 to +10 more damage per hit.
Unholy_King 05-04-07, 02:34 AM	A fighter taking Power Attack, Weapon Specialization, and Greater Weapon Specialization feat Fixed. Also, to the topic on-hand. Having DM'ed a couple Monk characters, I see them use their weapons a lot. The weapons can get enchanted with nifty abilities, and can be made out of materials to beat DR. All I see this feat doing is allowing Monks to get enchanted 2d10 light weapons that can flurry. Which is a no in my book.
Rainson_Tempestheart 05-04-07, 03:12 AM	If the only reason you are really making up this feat is so players can bypass damage reduction of /slashing and /piercing, they already made a feat that allows a monk to do so. In the Player's Handbook II the feat Versatile Unarmed Strike allows for a player to choose, as a swift action at the beginning of his turn, whether his unarmed strikes deal bludgeoning, slashing, or piercing damage. The only prerequisite to the feat is Improved Unarmed Strike. Otherwise, making a feat that allows a player to increase the damage of a weapon, that itself can be enchanted to deal more damage already, seems overpowered. If your players really want to just deal different types of damage with their unarmed attacks, the feat is there.
Kouk 05-05-07, 01:36 AM	A fighter taking Monkey Grip, Weapon Specialization, and Greater Weapon Specialization feat will get +5 to +8ish more damage per hit by 20th level. With your 1 feat, a 20th level monk does 2d8 (using a quarterstaff) or approximately +1 to +10 more damage per hit. Actually, with his bare hand he does 2d10 damage at 20th level, even without investing a single feat in offense. Why is it worse when he does it with a quarterstaff? The reason for this was so using weapons could be an "always" thing and not just a "sometimes" thing for a Monk. I am aware of Versatile Unarmed Strike, but that just further diminishes the usefulness of weapons. For one feat, I can see how being able to use enchanted weapons would be a bit overpowering. I will give up on this for now, because it doesn't seem like just throwing more prerequisites will work for this. Just in parting I will post a Monk's normal damage progression, some of the arguments seem to not be aware of it: 1st:1d6. 4th:1d8. 8th:1d10. 12th:2d6. 16th:2d8. 20th:2d10. If a level 20 monk picks up a kama, he now does 1d6 damage base plus whatever the enhancements happen to be.:tantrum:
Rulebook 05-05-07, 06:58 AM	at least normally monks cant enhance much. by 20th level a +1 Flame/shock/frost/corrosive kama is better than thier unarmed strikes (resistances notwithstanding) and subsequently most like weapons people wield are similarly more powerful. with monks, its either tastes great or less filling. they dont get both because its just not right. and since you cant seem to see the flaws in your idea, i can only assume you're looking for some way to lend credibility to your munchkin fantasies by taking it here. and i dont even want to think what kind of brokenness happens when a Shou Disciple takes this feat...
unundindur 05-05-07, 07:22 AM	I say get a pair of gloves from Forgotten Realms. Lets you enchant your unarmed strikes ;) My biggest problem with this sugestion is that you could potentially get a weapon to deal even more damage than with an unarmed strike. Let say you have a class feature letting you use a bastard sword as a monk weapon... That would likely turn out to be very much damamge if you increase it by 5 steps or something. On the other hand I don't think hands can be balanced vs weapons because of enchanting-differences. As far as I know its no problem to enchant hands, either by an object as the gloves I noted above, or just paying 1,5*price to get the bonuses on an item in the "wrong" slot, such as ring, boots etc. Its a balancing factor, but a minor one in my mind.
ShaRd2000 05-05-07, 07:29 AM	at least normally monks cant enhance much. by 20th level a +1 Flame/shock/frost/corrosive kama is better than thier unarmed strikes (resistances notwithstanding) and subsequently most like weapons people wield are similarly more powerful. with monks, its either tastes great or less filling. they dont get both because its just not right. There's no point to any of this, you can get bracers of striking (pg 155 magic of faerun, cost 1,310gp with no enchantments) and enchant any of the above to your fists/unarmed strike. Those + versatile unarmed strike and you can over take anything in DR, so there's no point in using weapons with a monk. Which is basically what the op is trying to say and his reason making said feat. Why have a class with several weapons that he'll probably never use in the long run, and his fists that are better (for his class) anyways? I personally don't see a problem with the above feat, (the only "overpowered" thing I see is TWFing) but it's mostly because I'm biased towards unarmed fighting in D&D. I mean really, a monk can do all that, (Vorpal fists come to mind, although that's epic) AND I can't be "disARMED". Ok sorry, that was a bad pun.
Captain_Kobold 05-05-07, 10:30 AM	Why would a martial artist who has concentrated on unarmed combat (Monk) be able to use a weapon to do more base damage than a martial artist who has concentrated upon weapon use (Fighter)?
Unholy_King 05-05-07, 10:42 AM	There's no point to any of this, you can get bracers of striking (pg 155 magic of faerun, cost 1,310gp with no enchantments) and enchant any of the above to your fists/unarmed strike. Those + versatile unarmed strike and you can over take anything in DR, so there's no point in using weapons with a monk. Keep in mind, not every Monk plays in FR.
ShaRd2000 05-05-07, 06:53 PM	Keep in mind, not every Monk plays in FR. It doesn't have to be specifically an FR item; the description says nothing of the sort.
Grod_The_Giant 05-05-07, 07:07 PM	Although no player in my game has ever seen fit to use a monk, I decided that, if I ever did, I would introduce this weapon: "Brass Knuckles" [Unarmed Attack] Cost: 5 gp Damage (Small): 1d2 Damage (Med): 1d3 Critical: ×2 Weight: - Type: Bludgeoning Special: A Monk using this weapon is considered unarmed for all purposes such as flurry of blows and damage. The only difference between him using this weapon and normal unarmed strikes is that this weapon can be enchanted and/or made out of a special material. Using them lets a Monk get enchanted fists and bypass weird DR.
Rigeld 05-06-07, 10:57 AM	So youre cool with a monk tossing out 1d10 damage shuriken?
Unholy_King 05-06-07, 12:41 PM	It doesn't have to be specifically an FR item; the description says nothing of the sort. It's a FR book, so it's a FR item as far as I'm concerned. I wouldn't let my players use it as I don't like the FRCS in general. Although no player in my game has ever seen fit to use a monk, I decided that, if I ever did, I would introduce this weapon: "Brass Knuckles" [Unarmed Attack] Cost: 5 gp Damage (Small): 1d2 Damage (Med): 1d3 Critical: ×2 Weight: - Type: Bludgeoning Special: A Monk using this weapon is considered unarmed for all purposes such as flurry of blows and damage. The only difference between him using this weapon and normal unarmed strikes is that this weapon can be enchanted and/or made out of a special material. Using them lets a Monk get enchanted fists and bypass weird DR. So... you want Monks to use their other weapons by making this feat, and then give them an item that doesn't cost a feat and just enhances their unarmed strike? This weapon means monks never have to use a weapon besides their fists.
ShaRd2000 05-06-07, 06:40 PM	Beyond the obvious blanket statement, there's items in there that they specifically state they are made in faerun, out of a whatever tree, or mined somewhere IN FR. These bracers, do not. But like I said, the idea doesn't have to be native to FR, you could opt to make it in any realm or setting or whatever. Just make some bracers and put a cost on them (XP/Gp) and say they go towards enchanting your unarmed strikes. Imagination King. ;)
Unholy_King 05-06-07, 09:06 PM	Beyond the obvious blanket statement, there's items in there that they specifically state they are made in faerun, out of a whatever tree, or mined somewhere IN FR. These bracers, do not. But like I said, the idea doesn't have to be native to FR, you could opt to make it in any realm or setting or whatever. Just make some bracers and put a cost on them (XP/Gp) and say they go towards enchanting your unarmed strikes. Imagination King. ;) I have plenty of imagination, hence I'm usually the DM. I know that the bracers don't require anything specific to FR but it still exists in a FR book. Just like I don't allow ECS when playing in my campaigns, I don't allow FRCS. Of course I could make an item that did the exact same thing, but I'd rather not. I prefer Monks that actually fight unarmed, to actually be unarmed. Flavor-wise, what kind of unarmored monk wears gauntlets or bracers? Plus balance-wise I don't like it either.
Vharuck 05-06-07, 09:30 PM	This feat really is too strong. Compare it to an existing feat, Weapon Specialization. It easily is much better than this feat, making the choice a no-brainer for a monk (not a no-brainer like some feats end up being more useful than others since that situation occurs more, but a no-brainer like how 3 dollars is better than 1), and really becomes insane when couples with Enlarging spells.
ShaRd2000 05-06-07, 10:06 PM	Flavor-wise, what kind of unarmored monk wears gauntlets or bracers? Plus balance-wise I don't like it either. Bracers of armor. But if you wear bracers of striking, you cant wear bracers of armor anyways, which monks usually get to back em up. The fact that you have to sacrifice bracers of armor period is one of the defining points of balance to me, you sacrifice defense for offense. Not to mention there was a few rules for enchanting it, like you have to enchant each fist (doubles the cost of any enchant GP/XP wise) and the spellcaster/manifester level has to be triple the level of the enchantment. You end up having it mid to end career, not something that you can plop on a first level character, and it ends up costing the character a lot of money. You give alot, and you get alot, something that is in balance.
Unholy_King 05-06-07, 10:41 PM	That actually seems ridiculous now that I think about it. I might allow the bracers for enchanting (but nothing else), just because an identical Monk with Bracers of armor and a permanency Greater Magic Fang would be able to mop the floor with him and still have plenty of money left over. In general, any way for a monk to enhance his fists takes away from his already underused weapons, which this feat tries to fix. Though I still don't like the feat.
Kouk 05-07-07, 02:51 AM	and since you cant seem to see the flaws in your idea, i can only assume you're looking for some way to lend credibility to your munchkin fantasies by taking it here. First of all, I already said in the post previous to this one you just posted that I conceded it was overpowered but thanks for that :rolleyes:. I wasn't intending this for me to use even, it was a campaign flavor option so that some other weapons would see some more play. Your explanations always were kind of hard for me to follow Mr. Rulebook, if you had just stated about the multiple energy enchantment with a Shou Disciple that would have worked better for me. Why would a martial artist who has concentrated on unarmed combat (Monk) be able to use a weapon to do more base damage than a martial artist who has concentrated upon weapon use (Fighter)? That is a good question. I was looking at it as an unarmed strike is a weapon already, which already gave monks the best weapons. I think it may be a flaw in the Fighter that it requires so many feats and enchantments to keep up damage but I didn't want to get into dealing with Fighters. In any case, while I had originally hoped for more constructive criticism than I got, I understand that yes if you enchant a weapon heavily then monks would do more damage than a fighter or barbarian. I have abandoned this idea for my current campaign, I will just leave monks and weapons as they are in 3.5 so bye everyone!:D
ShaRd2000 05-07-07, 06:57 AM	In general, any way for a monk to enhance his fists takes away from his already underused weapons, which this feat tries to fix. Though I still don't like the feat. Agreed. It's sad really, as I was trying to say before there's really no point right now, in a monk using any other weapon other than his unarmed strike due in part to items like the bracers before mentioned, (There's even Necklace of Natural Weapons [savage species pg 58] that does the same thing but it's an amulet, so you could keep your bracers of armor - haha) and the fact that none of his other weapons scale like his unarmed strikes. I'm all for a feat in this vein, and it seems like the right direction, but the one posted in the thread could be EASILY abused and is just overall too overpowered. So keep messing with something like this, and you just might be on to something.