Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Mark_Aged 09-10-07, 09:49 AM	Here's a feat I came up with, but I'm worried about balance issues. Tell me what 'ya think. One-Handed Use Your focus on your two handed weapon of choice has made you better at using it, letting you wield it with one hand where normal people must use two, albeit a tad crudely. Prerequisite: Weapon Focus on a two handed weapon Benefit: Choose a two handed weapon that you have Weapon Focus with. You can now treat that weapon as a one-handed weapon in all respects when wielded with a -1 on all attack rolls made by with weapon. This stacks with other penaltys. Special: You may take this feat multiple times. Its effects do not stack; each time you take this feat, you must choose a new two handed weapon that you have Weapon Focus with.
foxtail 09-10-07, 09:52 AM	So... Monkey Grip, but more limited in scope, applies to only one weapon, and with a greater attack penalty? It's certainly not overpowered, that's for sure.
jaelis 09-10-07, 09:54 AM	Might run into some trouble with really big monsters, but otherwise this seems reasonably fair, probably a bit weak. But it depends, you need to say how other modifiers now apply. Do you still get 1-1/2 x Str to damage? Does it "count" as being 2H for penalties to things like disarming? Do you get a 2:1 or 1:1 return on power attack? If you treat it as a 1H weapon for all purposes, I think a -2 penalty would be OK. Also need to say how it works with Monkey Grip though. Can you wield a Large greatsword in one hand with both feats?
Dalthbar 09-10-07, 09:58 AM	So... Monkey Grip, but more limited in scope, applies to only one weapon, and with a greater attack penalty? It's not monkey grip. Monkey grip lets you wield a larger weapon with the same handedness with a penalty. So a human with MG could wield a large greatsword with two hands or a large shortsword with one - both at a -2 to hit. This would work alongside MG to allow you to wield a large greatsword in one hand with a -6 penalty. This is a steep cost (two feats, -6 to hit), but still has the potential to be abused (esp. with full BAB classes with lots of feats).
concerro 09-10-07, 10:39 AM	Here's a feat I came up with, but I'm worried about balance issues. Tell me what 'ya think. One-Handed Use You can use a weapon with one hand, where normal people must use two, albeit a tad shaky. Prerequisite: A two handed weapon that you are proficiency with Benefit: Choose a two handed weapon the you are proficiency with that you can't use with one hand. You may now use that weapon with one hand with a -4 on attack rolls. This stacks with other penalties. Special: You may take this feat multiple times. Its effects do not stack; each time you take this feat, you must choose a new two handed weapon that you are proficiency with. The prerequisite should be monkey grip and a two handed weapon that you are proficient with Benefit: Same as what you have The monkey grip just makes it harder to get due to the fact that you can wield a 2-handed weapon weapon and still use a sheild. The AC from the shield makes up for the penalty.
Mark_Aged 09-10-07, 11:14 AM	Nah, see, I wanted this be not an upgrade to Monkey Grip, but rather alternative, or as Dalthbar potined out, something to use along side Monkey Grip. And it's not that powerful, you don't get the bonus for holding a weapon in two hands (you don't add 1.5 your STR to damage, ect.), and even if your a level 20 fighter with +20 BAB, a -4 is always bad, it's like your level 16 all over again. And the lower your level, the more and more it gets bad.
foxtail 09-10-07, 11:51 AM	If it's supposed to be an alternative to MG, as you say, let's look at the two side-by-side. For the purposes of this example, the character is wielding the largest martial sword he can in a single hand. One-Handed Use - Greatsword: 2d6 damage, -4 to attack. Monkey Grip - Large Longsword: 2d6 damage, -2 to attack. Aside from the advantage of being able to use off-the-rack (or off-the-hoard) Medium weapons (instead of finding or crafting Large ones) One-Handed Use comes out behind. Even more so, since you only get to use it with a single weapon. Now, let's allow the two to stack, as some of the other posters have suggested. In one hand, our character can wield: Large Greatsword: 3d6 damage, -6 to attack. Comparing it to Monkey Grip alone, you're adding 1d6 damage (average 3.5) and taking on a -4 attack penalty. Unless you're feeling lucky in the dice department, it's slightly inferior to the benefits of a 4-point Power Attack. Of course, this crazy-big weapon is a lot harder to sunder, I'll give it that.
Frugal 09-10-07, 12:28 PM	How would this feat work with reach weapons? Edit: also, I'd be inclined to make the same kind of rule of not working off-hand like Monkey Grip has so you get something that might work well for sword and board but not somebody dual wielding scythes or something like that.
EvilVegan 09-10-07, 12:37 PM	I'd make it -2 and not make it weapon specific. It won't add much damage (one die increase effectively), it does less damage than if wielding it 2-handed, it costs a feat, and the only real benefit I can see is that you can use a shield and a big weapon (which as pointed out can already be done with monkey grip, but better). I'd love to see someone with oversized twf, one-handed use, monkey-grip, and two large great swords wade into combat. _ _ \ \ / / \ \ / / \ \ / / \ \ / / \ \ / / \ \ / / \ \ / / \ \ / / \ \ FEAH MA / / \ \ GREATSW0RZ! / / \ \ / / \ \ ~~~ / / \ \ |? ?| / / <\ \> \@/ </ /> # / - \ # #==\/\ /\/==# I agree that this shouldn't function on 2-handed reach weapons or that it reduces their reach by 5 feet.
Mark_Aged 09-10-07, 01:10 PM	There we go, EvilVegan really hit the fun part of these two feats. Forgetting about the huge penalties on the attack roll, think about all the damage you get to do. As you said, isn't it priceless to be able to yell out in battle, "FEAH MA GREATSW0RZ!"? And reach weapons still got their reach, so you can have some dual scythes fun.
EvilVegan 09-10-07, 01:17 PM	There we go, EvilVegan really hit the fun part of these two feats. Forgetting about the huge penalties on the attack roll, think about all the damage you get to do. As you said, isn't it priceless to be able to yell out in battle, "FEAH MA GREATSW0RZ!"? And reach weapons still got their reach, so you can have some dual scythes fun. -4 to hitz witz the +6z to damgz! <0<> teh drgon ded!
Frugal 09-10-07, 01:20 PM	I'd love to see someone with oversized twf, one-handed use, monkey-grip, and two large great swords wade into combat. Well Monkey Grip normally doesn't work off-hand, so unless this feat changed that it won't work.
Frugal 09-10-07, 01:26 PM	There we go, EvilVegan really hit the fun part of these two feats. Forgetting about the huge penalties on the attack roll, think about all the damage you get to do. As you said, isn't it priceless to be able to yell out in battle, "FEAH MA GREATSW0RZ!"? And reach weapons still got their reach, so you can have some dual scythes fun. Scythes aren't reach weapons, I mentioned them though because they seem to be a fave from those who like to think Monkey Grip does allow you to wield a 2-handed weapon 1-handed.
EvilVegan 09-10-07, 01:28 PM	You can already wield a 2-handed weapon 1 handed. -4 to hit with my small scythe ftw!
Einvaldurinn_mikli 09-10-07, 01:39 PM	This feat blows really, really hard. Taking it is quite frankly, idiotic. You are already doing something suboptimal(wielding a one handed weapon) and you are taking a feat to well, not improve it at all. See, vs AC 10 and wielding a longsword with a +1 to hit, you do an average of 2.7 points of damage. Using the two handed weapon in one hand you do 2.8. Worth the feat? You decide.
Frugal 09-10-07, 01:44 PM	You can already wield a 2-handed weapon 1 handed. -4 to hit with my small scythe ftw! Actually, it'd only be a -2. It's one size category smaller so you can wield it at 1 category lower of effort (2-handed to 1-handed) at a -2.
Mark_Aged 09-10-07, 01:50 PM	This feat blows really, really hard. Taking it is quite frankly, idiotic. You are already doing something suboptimal(wielding a one handed weapon) and you are taking a feat to well, not improve it at all. See, vs AC 10 and wielding a longsword with a +1 to hit, you do an average of 2.7 points of damage. Using the two handed weapon in one hand you do 2.8. Worth the feat? You decide. Is it as idiotic as Toughness?
foxtail 09-10-07, 01:57 PM	Actually, it'd only be a -2. It's one size category smaller so you can wield it at 1 category lower of effort (2-handed to 1-handed) at a -2. Or, you could just buy a Medium-sized heavy pick, and get almost identical mechanical benefits without the penalty. For that matter, MG + Large heavy pick > This feat + scythe. Anything One-Handed Use can do, Monkey Grip can do better, with the right tool. And using Monkey Grip on a one-handed weapon isn't that spectacular in the first place.
MaverickWolf 09-10-07, 02:04 PM	Is it as idiotic as Toughness? Moreso. I've at least seen instances where those 3 hit points could've saved me or another player if we'd had Toughness. This is just bad. If anything, I'd suggest this require Weapon Focus in a two-handed weapon, and allow that weapon only to be used in one-hand (with only normal Str bonus, which should be called out) WITHOUT penalties. Then I might THINK about using it.
foxtail 09-10-07, 02:32 PM	If anything, I'd suggest this require Weapon Focus in a two-handed weapon, and allow that weapon only to be used in one-hand (with only normal Str bonus, which should be called out) WITHOUT penalties. Then I might THINK about using it. Now that version, I'm all for. I should mention that I think the feat's concept, in general, is decent; it's the penalties that irk me. One-Handed Use would lend some versatility to melee characters that specialize in a two-handed weapon, allowing them to use a shield in situations when they need to prioritize AC over damage.
Mark_Aged 09-10-07, 03:30 PM	Okay, thanks for the point in the right direction, MaverickWolf, here is the new version: One-Handed Use Your focus on your two handed weapons of choice have made you better at using them, letting you wield them with one hand, where normal people must use two. Prerequisite: Weapon Focus on a two handed weapon Benefit: Choose a two handed weapon that you have Weapon Focus with. You now treat that weapon as one-handed. Special: You may take this feat multiple times. Its effects do not stack; each time you take this feat, you must choose a new two handed weapon that you have Weapon Focus with.
Mark_Aged 09-12-07, 09:24 AM	Bump.
Kanachi 09-12-07, 09:36 AM	you might want to re-word it so it functions for 2-handed melee weapons only... otherwise your firing your greatbow one handed (drawing it back with your teath!! lol... actually i quite like the idea of that haha). It might be quite a cool way of allowing someone to reload a crossbow one handed though, which would be awesome when using two repeating crossbows with the rapid re-load feat (semi-auto crossbows, yay!).
Dalthbar 09-12-07, 09:42 AM	The only (admittedly **** retentive) change that I'd make is this line: You now treat that weapon as one-handed. to: You can now treat that weapon as a one-handed weapon in all respects when wielded. only because you don't want the feat to force a change - you want it to grant you a benefit _in addition_ to the rules. You don't want to "lose flexibility" as it were.
Frugal 09-12-07, 10:36 AM	I'm a little concerned about the "treat as a 1-handed weapon" wording, the big thing I see is combining this with Oversized TWF and wielding a 2-handed weapon off-hand as a light weapon. I'm also really concerned with abuse in general, a lot of the better reach weapons only cover 10' but not 5', with this feat you could wield a reach weapon in 1 hand and another good weapon (say a greatsword) in your other hand.
foxtail 09-12-07, 03:45 PM	I'm a little concerned about the "treat as a 1-handed weapon" wording, the big thing I see is combining this with Oversized TWF and wielding a 2-handed weapon off-hand as a light weapon. I'm also really concerned with abuse in general, a lot of the better reach weapons only cover 10' but not 5', with this feat you could wield a reach weapon in 1 hand and another good weapon (say a greatsword) in your other hand. One-Handed Use, as revised by the OP, only gives you the benefits with a single weapon; you couldn't wield a two-handed reach weapon and a two-handed non-reach weapon at the same time, unless you took the feat twice. Besides, you can already overcome the gap in your threatened area by using armor spikes, so it's not that big a deal. But now that you mention it, the benefit of One-Handed Use does become multiplied when Oversized TWF comes into play; wielding two spiked chains at once, for example, could be especially powerful. Perhaps a "primary hand only" provison could be added to the feat.
Johnny_Angel 09-12-07, 04:18 PM	There's nothing wrong with the feat, but why would you take this when you could just as easily take an exotic weapon proficiency for a bastard sword or a dwarven waraxe? ...doing the same damage as a typical 2-handed weapon with one hand and not taking the attack roll penalty.
bkdubs123 09-12-07, 05:08 PM	Because 1d10 is not the same damage as 2d6 or 1d12 or 2d8. I like the revised version, only certainly change it so that you may choose to treat the two-handed weapon of choice as a one-handed weapon as you will, and automatically do so whenever it would benefit you to do so.
Mark_Aged 09-12-07, 08:17 PM	Because 1d10 is not the same damage as 2d6 or 1d12 or 2d8. I like the revised version, only certainly change it so that you may choose to treat the two-handed weapon of choice as a one-handed weapon as you will, and automatically do so whenever it would benefit you to do so. Now that's where it starts to get way to powerful. You get 1.5 STR on two one handed weapons, ect., but, as Dalthbar said: One-Handed Use Your focus on your two handed weapons of choice have made you better at using them, letting you wield them with one hand, where normal people must use two. Prerequisite: Weapon Focus on a two handed weapon Benefit: Choose a two handed weapon that you have Weapon Focus with. You can now treat that weapon as a one-handed weapon in all respects when wielded. Special: You may take this feat multiple times. Its effects do not stack; each time you take this feat, you must choose a new two handed weapon that you have Weapon Focus with.
bkdubs123 09-13-07, 12:55 AM	What? No... If you have this feat, and you choose to wield it as a one-handed weapon you DON'T get the extra damage from strength... However, next turn if you choose to do so, you DO. When wielding it in ONE hand and using Power Attack, you DON'T get the extra damage. When wielding it in TWO you DO. More importantly perhaps - When wielding the weapon in ONE hand you DON'T get a bonus on disarm and trip attempts. When wielding it in TWO hands, you DO. How, did you get that I meant for the extra damage to apply to one handed weapons? I'm just saying that if for one round you want to one hand it, that's fine, you totally can, but if the next round you want to twohand it you treat it as though it were a two handed weapon and not still a one handed weapon.
Mark_Aged 09-13-07, 02:28 AM	Oh, I see what your saying now! I didn't do that becuse I have a house rule that you can do that with any weapon: If you have a weapon in your hand you may hold the weapon in your other hand (if the hand can hold something) as a free action with no AoOs. You also may make an attack with a different weapon in that now-free hand in the same round. For example, you have a Greatsword in your hands, and a Spiked Gauntlet on your primary hand. You can hold the Greatsword in your off hand, then make an attack with your Spiked Gauntlet.
bkdubs123 09-13-07, 03:59 AM	Right, well that's a fine house rule, but I'm just saying that the player needs to be able to choose when to consider the two-handed weapon a one-handed weapon rather than making the GAME RULES consider it a one-handed weapon all the time. Saying something like: "You now treat that weapon as one-handed," just makes the rules say that it acts mechanically as a one-handed weapon all the time. Which means more than holding it in one hand, and dealing more or less damage.
Frugal 09-13-07, 12:36 PM	I was under the impression that changing the grip on a weapon already was a free action?
Mark_Aged 09-13-07, 02:37 PM	I was under the impression that changing the grip on a weapon already was a free action? I don't think so, I asked about it, and they said you couldn't. Here's the topic, tell me if you can understand it better then me: http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?p=13138404 And, bkdubs123, I'm sorry, but I don't really know what your saying.
Frugal 09-14-07, 07:59 AM	I don't think so, I asked about it, and they said you couldn't. Here's the topic, tell me if you can understand it better then me: My understanding is that if I'm holding a 1-handed weapon in 1 hand I can switch to a 2-handed grip as a free action, or if I'm wielding it in 2-hands I can switch to 1-handed as a free action. I can also switch my grip for a 2-handed weapon to be holding it in 1 hand (but can't use since it's a 2-handed weapon). For instance, I could be holding a greatsword in 2 hands, switch to one handed use on my round, quick draw a throwing axe to hurl at an opponent, then switch back to 2-handed grip so that I can threaten squares. Now yes, there's some potential for abuse here with TWF which I think is why many people say you have to choose for the round how you're wielding your weapons.
Mark_Aged 09-14-07, 09:35 AM	Oh, okay. Yeah, there can be a bit of abuse, even with out TWF, and more with. I'll just keep the house rule there to avoid any confusion.
Mark_Aged 09-16-07, 08:28 AM	Bump.
Dragoon1 09-17-07, 02:26 AM	How about this? One handed use: Requires: Weapon Focus with a two handed weapon Effect: You may wield a chosen two handed weapon you have weapon focus with in your primary hand as a one handed weapon. Special: You may take this feet more than once, each timne you do it applies to a different weapon
Mark_Aged 09-17-07, 10:49 AM	But that way you can't wield to Greatswords.
Dark Stryke 09-17-07, 03:20 PM	So? It just seems silly to me to be wielding 2 greatswords with One Handed Use and Oversize TWF. If you wanted it like this, then it's just a better version of monkey grip! Oversize TWF + Monkey grip with two large longswords (2d6 damage): -2 for TWF - whatever the penalty Oversize TWF gives you - 2 for monkey grip Oversize TWF + This feat with two medium greatswords (2d6 damage): -2 for TWF - whatever the penalty Oversize TWF gives you. It's the same number of feats, you just skip out on the -2! It does the exact same thing mechanically, as well. And don't give me any guff about "needing weapon focus", because that's one pre-requisite that you're probably going to get anyway! One Handed Use seems like a neat concept, but I would only allow it in the primary hand to prevent Oversize TWF abuse.
Frugal 09-17-07, 05:40 PM	So? It just seems silly to me to be wielding 2 greatswords with One Handed Use and Oversize TWF. If you wanted it like this, then it's just a better version of monkey grip! Oversize TWF + Monkey grip with two large longswords (2d6 damage): -2 for TWF - whatever the penalty Oversize TWF gives you - 2 for monkey grip Oversize TWF + This feat with two medium greatswords (2d6 damage): -2 for TWF - whatever the penalty Oversize TWF gives you. It's the same number of feats, you just skip out on the -2! It does the exact same thing mechanically, as well. And don't give me any guff about "needing weapon focus", because that's one pre-requisite that you're probably going to get anyway! Monkey Grip doesn't work off-hand. Oversized TWF allows you to treat a 1-hander as a light weapon off-hand, so basically he's asking to do something you can't do with Monkey Grip, and at no penalty; wield a 2d6 weapon in each hand at only a -2/-2 penalty.
Mark_Aged 09-17-07, 06:18 PM	Edit: Frugal beat me to it, and said it better.
Dark Stryke 09-17-07, 07:32 PM	Ah. My mistake. However, it sounds even cheesier when you put it like that... Since the "standard" for 2WF is double short swords (well, it is in my group. YMMV), an increase of 3.5 damage per weapon for the cost of two feats is slightly worse than having greater weapon focus (+4 damage). However, greater weapon focus has the restriction of needing a high number of fighter levels to pull off, and furthermore, if you're going that route anyway, you'll probably have the feats to spare to pick up both this combo and Greater Weapon Focus. It seems to me that this feat has just been a really underhanded (no pun intended) way of a player trying to wield two greatswords, rather than simply wielding a single two handed weapon in one hand. Seems totally cheesy, and just looks completely illogical. I'd restrict this feat to the main hand and call it balanced. *EDIT* Just to explain my reasoning for using two short swords instead of say, longsword and short sword, is because it allows you to take weapon focus only once, instead of twice for your two different weapons. The members of my group feel that the longsword's average of one additional damage over the short sword (3.5 average vs 4.5 average) and sacrificing an extra feat to have weapon focus with both (or worse, missing out on Weapon focus with one weapon or the other) pales in comparison to simply using two of the same weapon.
ToastedAmphibian 09-17-07, 11:13 PM	Well, tell em to man up and use 2 dwarven waraxes :}
Mark_Aged 09-19-07, 08:54 AM	Bump.
Frugal 09-19-07, 10:16 AM	In terms of damage increase, we're probably looking at the best damage being 2d6 (greatsword), compared to the best martial 1-hander (1d8 for a longsword) that's an increase 2.5 avg damage (4.5 vs. 7), it's with no penalties so that makes it marginally better than weapon specialisation, which is also limited to a single weapon. You're also guaranteed to deal at least 1 more damage and your max damage is 4 more points. If we go further, with 1d8 you're looking at a 1 in 8 chance of any of the outcomes, with 2d6 though things skew more toward the middle, see the chart below: 2 - 1 possibility 3 - 2 possibilities 4 - 3 possibilities 5 - 4 possibilities 6 - 5 possibilities 7 - 6 possibilities 8 - 5 possibilities 9 - 4 possibilities 10 - 3 possibilities 11 - 2 possibilities 12 - 1 possibility So in terms of probability, you're far more likely to do more damage while the odds of doing less damage are reduced. The other big question is how this feat would interact with reach weapons? Between it being better than weapon specialisation and the reach weapon issues I think it's too powerful.
Mark_Aged 09-19-07, 12:49 PM	Well, reach weapons aren't edited much, you can just now hold them in one hand. What do you think I should do to make it less powerful?
Frugal 09-19-07, 01:32 PM	Well, reach weapons aren't edited much, you can just now hold them in one hand. What do you think I should do to make it less powerful? I think the issue I had with reach weapons was that you could now pull spiked chain shenanigans with a martial weapon, but since you're burning 2 feats to do that it's not really an issue compared to the 1 feat for a spiked chain. I guess the big thing is the no penalty for that much of a damage increase. Compared to what you can pull off with Monkey Grip (the same 1d8 to 2d6 damage increase but with a -2 penalty) it's really good, although limited to a single weapon. Maybe a -1 penalty? That's offset by the mandatory weapon focus feat. It's better than the pay off from power attack with a 2-handed weapon but since it's limited to a single weapon and not scalable to the circumstances that doesn't sound too bad.
Mark_Aged 09-19-07, 09:54 PM	Okay, here's the new one: One-Handed Use Your focus on your two handed weapon of choice has made you better at using it, letting you wield it with one hand where normal people must use two, albeit a tad crudely. Prerequisite: Weapon Focus on a two handed weapon Benefit: Choose a two handed weapon that you have Weapon Focus with. You can now treat that weapon as a one-handed weapon in all respects when wielded with a -1 on all attack rolls made by with weapon. This stacks with other penaltys. Special: You may take this feat multiple times. Its effects do not stack; each time you take this feat, you must choose a new two handed weapon that you have Weapon Focus with.
Disciple_of_Salsa 09-19-07, 11:02 PM	They should make the feat Immense Two Weapon Fighting Prerequisites: Monkey Grip, Oversized TWF. Benefits: You may treat weapons wielded in your off-hand as 1 size category smaller. However, you take a -2 penalty to attack rolls with your off-hand. Or something like that. If you got that and one hand wield, then you could open up a can of two large greatsword whup-ass.
war_thog 09-20-07, 12:16 AM	A -1 penalty still makes it better than monkey grip. -1 Atk roll to use multiple weapons taht way..... not worth it. Im still not seeing why this needs to exist or the advantages of it. Sell it to me *aside from the "cool factor"*
Roog 09-20-07, 08:48 AM	Okay, here's the new one: One-Handed Use Your focus on your two handed weapon of choice has made you better at using it, letting you wield it with one hand where normal people must use two, albeit a tad crudely. Prerequisite: Weapon Focus on a two handed weapon Benefit: Choose a two handed weapon that you have Weapon Focus with. You can now treat that weapon as a one-handed weapon in all respects when wielded with a -1 on all attack rolls made by with weapon. This stacks with other penaltys. Special: You may take this feat multiple times. Its effects do not stack; each time you take this feat, you must choose a new two handed weapon that you have Weapon Focus with. This seems pretty reasonable. The only reason I would want to take a feat like this, is for a character who heavily specializes in a two-handed weapon and wants a bit more flexibility in how they wield it - and this feat achieves that. However this brings up two issues. 1: I think that if two-weapon fighting with a light off-hand weapon reduces the penalties by 2, then two-weapon fighting with a two-handed off-hand weapon should increase the penalties by 2 (or more). 2: This makes Exotic Weapon Proficiency in Bastard Sword or Dwarven Waraxe even less special. Since the same feat slot could be used for this feat instead. If you compare the damages (using PA to offset the penalties) you have Bastard Sword (One handed) - avg 6.5 damage Bastard Sword (Two handed) - avg 7.5 damage Two-handed Sword (One handed) - avg 7 damage Two-handed Sword (Two handed) - avg 9 damage all at -1 AB If the penalty for using this feat was -2, the damages would be Bastard Sword (One handed) - avg 7.5 damage Bastard Sword (Two handed) - avg 9.5 damage Two-handed Sword (One handed) - avg 7 damage Two-handed Sword (Two handed) - avg 11 damage all at -2 AB If the penalty for using this feat was -3, the damages would be Bastard Sword (One handed) - avg 8.5 damage Bastard Sword (Two handed) - avg 11.5 damage Two-handed Sword (One handed) - avg 7 damage Two-handed Sword (Two handed) - avg 13 damage all at -3 AB So IMHO the penalty for using this feat should be at least -2, in order to leave the bastard sword with some utility. For that highly specialized two-handed weapon fighter looking for versatility, I would consider taking this feat even if the penalty was -3.
war_thog 09-20-07, 09:23 AM	Those calculations don't make sense. What Str score is the cahr using? The damage increase from 1h --> 2h Bastard should should equal the increase in damage from 1h --> 2h greatsword. Looking at bastard sword you have 6.5 dmg.... -1 for PA, to 5.5 which is average dmg of a bastard sword. And 7.5 for 2h use which makes sense for a bastard sword with PA *5.5 + 2 for PA* But this char must then have a str bonus of +0 *which doesnt work for PA as you need str 13 but for arguments sake well ignore that* So then you take your greatsword with +0 str and wield it 1h at 7 average dmg, then 2 h at exactly the same damage. I have no idea where you are getting the extra 2 damage from. Thats looking at the first example. The rest also follow the same trend so I wont bother focussing on them.
Mark_Aged 09-20-07, 09:30 AM	I'm sorry, I don't get what your saying much. 1: I think that if two-weapon fighting with a light off-hand weapon reduces the penalties by 2, then two-weapon fighting with a two-handed off-hand weapon should increase the penalties by 2 (or more). What are you saying there? 2: This makes Exotic Weapon Proficiency in Bastard Sword or Dwarven Waraxe even less special. Since the same feat slot could be used for this feat instead. I thought of that, but remember you need Weapon Focus. Many of my player think it's a useless feat to get a mere +1 on attack rolls. Plus, does it matter once you can use if if you have a one handed exotic Bastard Sword or Dwarven Waraxe then if you have a one handed martial Bastard Sword or Dwarven Waraxe? If you compare the damages (using PA to offset the penalties) you have Bastard Sword (One handed) - avg 6.5 damage Bastard Sword (Two handed) - avg 7.5 damage Two-handed Sword (One handed) - avg 7 damage Two-handed Sword (Two handed) - avg 9 damage all at -1 AB If the penalty for using this feat was -2, the damages would be Bastard Sword (One handed) - avg 7.5 damage Bastard Sword (Two handed) - avg 9.5 damage Two-handed Sword (One handed) - avg 7 damage Two-handed Sword (Two handed) - avg 11 damage all at -2 AB If the penalty for using this feat was -3, the damages would be Bastard Sword (One handed) - avg 8.5 damage Bastard Sword (Two handed) - avg 11.5 damage Two-handed Sword (One handed) - avg 7 damage Two-handed Sword (Two handed) - avg 13 damage all at -3 AB So IMHO the penalty for using this feat should be at least -2, in order to leave the bastard sword with some utility. For that highly specialized two-handed weapon fighter looking for versatility, I would consider taking this feat even if the penalty was -3. What's PA? How did you get those stats?
Frugal 09-20-07, 09:56 AM	What's PA? How did you get those stats? He's using power attack for the same penalty to hit. However I do agree that completely ignoring the STR modifier isn't a good idea since it will make a huge difference with 2-handed uses. I will agree that this feat does just seem silly. At least Monkey Grip makes a little sense that you're wielding a weapon as it's intended to be wielded, but one that happens to be designed for a larger person. But suggesting you can effectively wield a spear with 10' reach in 1 hand, or a sword that's balanced to be swung in 2 hands, or a scythe or greataxe in 1 hand is really stretching things. Yes it's fantasy but I really don't see any precedent in source material for wielding weapons in this manner and it just seems like a feat designed for grabbing more damage without getting nailed with the penalties for using Monkey Grip.
Roog 09-20-07, 10:04 AM	Those calculations don't make sense. What Str score is the cahr using? It doesn't mater. The comparisons are between one-handed bastard sword and one-handed two handed sword (which have the same bonus damage from Strength) and between two-handed bastard sword and two-handed two handed sword (which have the same bonus damage from Strength) since the Strength bonuses are the same in both cases, they are not needed for the comparison. The damage increase from 1h --> 2h Bastard should should equal the increase in damage from 1h --> 2h greatsword. Looking at bastard sword you have 6.5 dmg.... -1 for PA, to 5.5 which is average dmg of a bastard sword. And 7.5 for 2h use which makes sense for a bastard sword with PA *5.5 + 2 for PA* But this char must then have a str bonus of +0 *which doesnt work for PA as you need str 13 but for arguments sake well ignore that* So then you take your greatsword with +0 str and wield it 1h at 7 average dmg, then 2 h at exactly the same damage. I have no idea where you are getting the extra 2 damage from. Thats looking at the first example. The rest also follow the same trend so I wont bother focussing on them. Bastard Sword (1 handed) - 5.5 +STR dam, PA for 1 avg 6.5+STR dam at -1 AB Bastard Sword (2 handed) - 5.5 +1.5*STR dam, PA for 1 avg 7.5+1.5*STR dam at -1 AB 2-handed Sword (1 handed) - 7 dam +STR, -1 AB for 1-handed avg 7+STR dam at -1 AB 2-handed Sword (2 handed) - 7 dam +1.5*STR, PA for 1 avg 9+1.5*STR dam at -1 AB Whatever strength scores the character has, if you use PA to make the hit penalty -1, 2-Handed sword causes an average of 0.5 more damage one handed and 1.5 more damage 2-handed. Similarly if the penalty for this feat is -2, 2-Handed sword causes an average of 0.5 less damage one handed and 1.5 more damage 2-handed. And if the penalty for this feat is -3, 2-Handed sword causes an average of 1.5 less damage one handed and 1.5 more damage 2-handed.
Roog 09-20-07, 10:09 AM	Yes it's fantasy but I really don't see any precedent in source material for wielding weapons in this manner and it just seems like a feat designed for grabbing more damage without getting nailed with the penalties for using Monkey Grip. Which is why the penalty should be the same as Monkey Grip. In 3.0 you could use monkey grip to do what this feat does, but the changes in the way weapons worked in 3.5 stopped that.
Frugal 09-20-07, 10:20 AM	Which is why the penalty should be the same as Monkey Grip. In 3.0 you could use monkey grip to do what this feat does, but the changes in the way weapons worked in 3.5 stopped that. Actually, I think that most of that was due to the horrible way that weapon sizes were handled in 3.0. In 3.0 weapon sizes I really don't see how you could capture what 3.5's version does and not open up the possibility of wielding a 2-handed weapon in 1 hand.
Roog 09-20-07, 10:40 AM	Actually, I think that most of that was due to the horrible way that weapon sizes were handled in 3.0. In 3.0 weapon sizes I really don't see how you could capture what 3.5's version does and not open up the possibility of wielding a 2-handed weapon in 1 hand. Wielding a large long-sword or a 2-handed sword in one hand both should be really bad ideas for a medium creature, but someone felt the need to add monkey grip to the game. The thing that is odd at the moment is the way a medium character (with plenty of longsword feats) is better of using a large longsword two-handed (-2 penalty for different size category, but Wep Focus + Greater Wep Focus make up for that) than using a two-handed sword designed for his size category. (Although you can use the weapon equivalences variant (DMG p27) to fix this.) Similarly a character with a focus on 2-handed swords, who wants to use a one-handed weapon is better off getting a small two-handed sword (for 1d10 damage and the ability to keep using his feats), than using a longsword designed for his own size category. And if he wants a light weapon for off-hand use, a tiny 2-handed sword doesn't look too bad.
Mark_Aged 09-22-07, 11:15 AM	Bump.
war_thog 09-24-07, 09:33 AM	Right on I dig it now. Still think the feat has very little point as monkey gripping a large longsword has the same damage as a greatsword, can use all 2h wep coolness and can be wielded 1h + can use big 2h wep. Making the atk bonus on this new feat less makes the current rules worthy somewhat obsolete and makes it only worthwhile if you want to wield a 2h big weapon. Basically its just stealing 1/2 of what monkey grip does and making it better. Which shouldnt be done.
Mark_Aged 09-28-07, 04:50 PM	Bump.
Mark_Aged 09-30-07, 08:00 PM	Bump.