New Feat: Press the Attack [Archive] - Wizards Community

New Feat: Press the Attack [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
CryoSilver
06-14-07, 03:09 PM Press the Attack (general, fighter)
Your own experience with evading enemy attacks enables you to attack a retreating enemy.
Prereqs: Dodge, Mobility, BAB 8+
Benefit: When an enemy uses a 5 foot step or withdraw action to exit a square you threaten, you may make an attack of opportunity against them at a -4 penalty. You still only get your normal number of attacks of opportunity per round. The opponent is aware of the fact that he will provoke such an attack if he attempts to move.
Normal: You can't make attacks of opportunity against enemies using a 5 foot step or withdraw action.
jaelis
06-14-07, 03:17 PM That's one of those feats that doesn't pass the "monster" test for me. How would I feel as a player if a monster showed up with that feat? I'd feel reamed.

I don't know if it's really truly unbalanced, but making a character take an AoO when he's trying to get out of the fight seems like a killer.
tarkin
06-14-07, 05:08 PM Honestly I don't think it is unfair.

-4 is 20% Miss chance, which is substantial.

how often do players run away?

Casters can always cast defensively. This is mainly a nasty feat against archers and people that have lost the fight anyway.

I would like all my opponents to take this feat.
Pentar
06-14-07, 05:12 PM All things considered, there are already feats out there that negate base moves you can take to avoid AoOs. I know there's a Magekiller feat or something that lets you make an AoO against any caster who attempts to cast defensively.

I like this feat. The requirements are hefty enough.

Question: In the feat that lets you make AoO against casters who attempt to cast defensively, it states specifically that the caster is aware that you can do this... Should the same apply for this feat? so that people are suddenly (mystically?) aware that you can make AoOs against their 5' moves?
aelryinth
06-14-07, 05:13 PM it sort of pseudo exists as an Eberron feat that requires action points to put into play.

Also, it does something else...gives a lot of importance to Tumble and/or Mobility. It really is going to hose PC's tho, if it shows up on a monster.

===Aelryinth
jaelis
06-14-07, 05:18 PM ...people that have lost the fight anyway.

Maybe that's what bugs me... it could easily convert a fight you're losing into a TPK. But players win most fights anyway, so maybe you just don't have monsters take the feat.

So if you have this feat, can your opponent tell that he'll provoke an AoO if he 5-foot-steps? (Ah, Pentar already asked.)
CryoSilver
06-15-07, 06:06 AM Question: In the feat that lets you make AoO against casters who attempt to cast defensively, it states specifically that the caster is aware that you can do this... Should the same apply for this feat? so that people are suddenly (mystically?) aware that you can make AoOs against their 5' moves?

No.
Pentar
06-15-07, 10:07 AM Question: In the feat that lets you make AoO against casters who attempt to cast defensively, it states specifically that the caster is aware that you can do this... Should the same apply for this feat? so that people are suddenly (mystically?) aware that you can make AoOs against their 5' moves?

No.

If I may suggest, you should keep it consistent with the Mageslayer feat whereby the opponents are aware of what their sudden limitations are, otherwise it could be considered too powerful... Especially if you use it against PCs. They'll most certainly cry foul.

It does make the feat a bit more dangerous though... Just my feelings on it.
CryoSilver
06-15-07, 10:44 AM Maybe that's what bugs me... it could easily convert a fight you're losing into a TPK. But players win most fights anyway, so maybe you just don't have monsters take the feat.
In most cases, I don't think a single AoO, made at a -4 penalty is going to change the outcome of a fight, especially at the levels when this feat comes into play (minimum of level 8, level 11 for 3/4 BAB monsters).

If I may suggest, you should keep it consistent with the Mageslayer feat whereby the opponents are aware of what their sudden limitations are, otherwise it could be considered too powerful... Especially if you use it against PCs. They'll most certainly cry foul.
I suppose that's possible, but WHY would the opponent be aware that you can attack them?
Pentar
06-15-07, 11:38 AM I suppose that's possible, but WHY would the opponent be aware that you can attack them?

There is no "realistic" or logical reason why they should be aware... anymore than why a Caster is suddenly aware that his opponent can AoO him if he attempts to cast defensively, yet that is the case for that feat.

I think the only reason is game-balance. The rules have explicitly stated that under normal circumstances, there is absolutely no way anyone can get an AoO against someone who makes a free 5' move. This custom feat changes that core rule. Due to that, it seems only fair that people subject to this attack are aware that it is a possibility so they can adjudicate their actions appropriately.
CryoSilver
06-15-07, 12:26 PM Fair point. I've been convinced and the note is edited in.
Someone
06-15-07, 01:20 PM Interesting feat. I like how it leaves open the door for tumbling away, or having cover or total concealment, but you can't simply use a particular combat action to escape.

For a follow-up feat, how about:
Improved Press the Attack: Once per round, when an opponent uses a 5 ft. step action while threatened by you, you may voluntarily forfeit the AoO granted by Press the Attack to make a 5 ft. step towards the opponent.
CryoSilver
06-15-07, 01:22 PM Interesting feat. I like how it leaves open the door for tumbling away, or having cover or total concealment, but you can't simply use a particular combat action to escape.

For a follow-up feat, how about:
Improved Press the Attack: Once per round, when an opponent uses a 5 ft. step action while threatened by you, you may voluntarily forfeit the AoO granted by Press the Attack to make a 5 ft. step towards the opponent.

I considered it, but there's already a martial maneuver that does almost exactly the same thing. So why make a redundant feat?
dman11235
06-16-07, 05:08 PM There is no "realistic" or logical reason why they should be aware... anymore than why a Caster is suddenly aware that his opponent can AoO him if he attempts to cast defensively, yet that is the case for that feat.

The way that the caster knows that he can't cast defensively is that the meleer is anticipating the caster's actions to take the casting defensively. I think that this feat shouldn't work for 5' steps, but for withdrawing actions, and increase the tumble DC by 5. A 5' step is an action that realistically has no way of provoking an AoO. Take fensing as an example. They move backwards and forwads, but the only openings that they can take are when they get past the sword. When moving that two or three feet that constitute a 5' step, you don't open yourself up at all.
CryoSilver
06-16-07, 10:08 PM When fencing, you also aren't trying to avoid being killed by potentially dozens of other guys, nor are you facing weapons like claws, teeth, gigantic swords, etc; you're fighting one guy with a weapon identical to your own in a controlled setting, and, if I recall correctly, only worrying about being hit in certain areas.

This feat represents the ability to anticipate and act upon even the tiniest flaw in a defense based on personale experience. That's what Dodge and Mobility represent. The guy with Press the Attack would be thinking "Well, in this case, I'd be doing X as I withdrew, so as the aggressor, I should do Y to take advantage of that..."

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
CryoSilver 06-14-07, 03:09 PM	Press the Attack (general, fighter) Your own experience with evading enemy attacks enables you to attack a retreating enemy. Prereqs: Dodge, Mobility, BAB 8+ Benefit: When an enemy uses a 5 foot step or withdraw action to exit a square you threaten, you may make an attack of opportunity against them at a -4 penalty. You still only get your normal number of attacks of opportunity per round. The opponent is aware of the fact that he will provoke such an attack if he attempts to move. Normal: You can't make attacks of opportunity against enemies using a 5 foot step or withdraw action.
jaelis 06-14-07, 03:17 PM	That's one of those feats that doesn't pass the "monster" test for me. How would I feel as a player if a monster showed up with that feat? I'd feel reamed. I don't know if it's really truly unbalanced, but making a character take an AoO when he's trying to get out of the fight seems like a killer.
tarkin 06-14-07, 05:08 PM	Honestly I don't think it is unfair. -4 is 20% Miss chance, which is substantial. how often do players run away? Casters can always cast defensively. This is mainly a nasty feat against archers and people that have lost the fight anyway. I would like all my opponents to take this feat.
Pentar 06-14-07, 05:12 PM	All things considered, there are already feats out there that negate base moves you can take to avoid AoOs. I know there's a Magekiller feat or something that lets you make an AoO against any caster who attempts to cast defensively. I like this feat. The requirements are hefty enough. Question: In the feat that lets you make AoO against casters who attempt to cast defensively, it states specifically that the caster is aware that you can do this... Should the same apply for this feat? so that people are suddenly (mystically?) aware that you can make AoOs against their 5' moves?
aelryinth 06-14-07, 05:13 PM	it sort of pseudo exists as an Eberron feat that requires action points to put into play. Also, it does something else...gives a lot of importance to Tumble and/or Mobility. It really is going to hose PC's tho, if it shows up on a monster. ===Aelryinth
jaelis 06-14-07, 05:18 PM	...people that have lost the fight anyway. Maybe that's what bugs me... it could easily convert a fight you're losing into a TPK. But players win most fights anyway, so maybe you just don't have monsters take the feat. So if you have this feat, can your opponent tell that he'll provoke an AoO if he 5-foot-steps? (Ah, Pentar already asked.)
CryoSilver 06-15-07, 06:06 AM	Question: In the feat that lets you make AoO against casters who attempt to cast defensively, it states specifically that the caster is aware that you can do this... Should the same apply for this feat? so that people are suddenly (mystically?) aware that you can make AoOs against their 5' moves? No.
Pentar 06-15-07, 10:07 AM	Question: In the feat that lets you make AoO against casters who attempt to cast defensively, it states specifically that the caster is aware that you can do this... Should the same apply for this feat? so that people are suddenly (mystically?) aware that you can make AoOs against their 5' moves? No. If I may suggest, you should keep it consistent with the Mageslayer feat whereby the opponents are aware of what their sudden limitations are, otherwise it could be considered too powerful... Especially if you use it against PCs. They'll most certainly cry foul. It does make the feat a bit more dangerous though... Just my feelings on it.
CryoSilver 06-15-07, 10:44 AM	Maybe that's what bugs me... it could easily convert a fight you're losing into a TPK. But players win most fights anyway, so maybe you just don't have monsters take the feat. In most cases, I don't think a single AoO, made at a -4 penalty is going to change the outcome of a fight, especially at the levels when this feat comes into play (minimum of level 8, level 11 for 3/4 BAB monsters). If I may suggest, you should keep it consistent with the Mageslayer feat whereby the opponents are aware of what their sudden limitations are, otherwise it could be considered too powerful... Especially if you use it against PCs. They'll most certainly cry foul. I suppose that's possible, but WHY would the opponent be aware that you can attack them?
Pentar 06-15-07, 11:38 AM	I suppose that's possible, but WHY would the opponent be aware that you can attack them? There is no "realistic" or logical reason why they should be aware... anymore than why a Caster is suddenly aware that his opponent can AoO him if he attempts to cast defensively, yet that is the case for that feat. I think the only reason is game-balance. The rules have explicitly stated that under normal circumstances, there is absolutely no way anyone can get an AoO against someone who makes a free 5' move. This custom feat changes that core rule. Due to that, it seems only fair that people subject to this attack are aware that it is a possibility so they can adjudicate their actions appropriately.
CryoSilver 06-15-07, 12:26 PM	Fair point. I've been convinced and the note is edited in.
Someone 06-15-07, 01:20 PM	Interesting feat. I like how it leaves open the door for tumbling away, or having cover or total concealment, but you can't simply use a particular combat action to escape. For a follow-up feat, how about: Improved Press the Attack: Once per round, when an opponent uses a 5 ft. step action while threatened by you, you may voluntarily forfeit the AoO granted by Press the Attack to make a 5 ft. step towards the opponent.
CryoSilver 06-15-07, 01:22 PM	Interesting feat. I like how it leaves open the door for tumbling away, or having cover or total concealment, but you can't simply use a particular combat action to escape. For a follow-up feat, how about: Improved Press the Attack: Once per round, when an opponent uses a 5 ft. step action while threatened by you, you may voluntarily forfeit the AoO granted by Press the Attack to make a 5 ft. step towards the opponent. I considered it, but there's already a martial maneuver that does almost exactly the same thing. So why make a redundant feat?
dman11235 06-16-07, 05:08 PM	There is no "realistic" or logical reason why they should be aware... anymore than why a Caster is suddenly aware that his opponent can AoO him if he attempts to cast defensively, yet that is the case for that feat. The way that the caster knows that he can't cast defensively is that the meleer is anticipating the caster's actions to take the casting defensively. I think that this feat shouldn't work for 5' steps, but for withdrawing actions, and increase the tumble DC by 5. A 5' step is an action that realistically has no way of provoking an AoO. Take fensing as an example. They move backwards and forwads, but the only openings that they can take are when they get past the sword. When moving that two or three feet that constitute a 5' step, you don't open yourself up at all.
CryoSilver 06-16-07, 10:08 PM	When fencing, you also aren't trying to avoid being killed by potentially dozens of other guys, nor are you facing weapons like claws, teeth, gigantic swords, etc; you're fighting one guy with a weapon identical to your own in a controlled setting, and, if I recall correctly, only worrying about being hit in certain areas. This feat represents the ability to anticipate and act upon even the tiniest flaw in a defense based on personale experience. That's what Dodge and Mobility represent. The guy with Press the Attack would be thinking "Well, in this case, I'd be doing X as I withdrew, so as the aggressor, I should do Y to take advantage of that..."