New feat: Quick Thinking (PEACH) [Archive] - Wizards Community

New feat: Quick Thinking (PEACH) [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Steidas
07-27-07, 12:44 PM I actually saw this in another thread and I posted this variant. I actually liked it a lot, so tell me what do you think and what would you change. Whoever saw it in the previous posting, please read it again because I nerfed it.

Quick Thinking [Tactical]
You are always focused on combat, and have gained quicker reflexes.
Prerequisites: Dex 19, Improved Initiative, Lightning Reflexes, Base Reflex Save +2
Benefits: You gain the following tactics:
1. You can spend your move action in adding half your Dex modifier to your inititative roll(modifying it for the rest of the encounter).
2. After you perform the previous maneuver, if your initiative count is more than 20, as an inmediate action you can give yourself a -20 penalty on it. If you would act again this turn because of it, you take normal actions (that is, a full round action, for example, you have a 21 initiative count, act, and then give yourself the -20 penalty, you act again on initiative 1).

edit: This was the third tactic, and has been removed due to balancing issues:
3. If you take the previous penalty, you can take another standard action in that same round in your new initiative count, but right after you are stunned for 1 round (effectively until the end of your next turn).
tarkin
07-27-07, 01:10 PM Your init is not supposed to change once combat begins.

Allowing it to change can create certain abuses, such as:

enemey goes
I take standard action causing my enmey a 1 round penalty that normallly would end BEFORE I can act again, then use move to speed myself up.

I go again, taking advantege of the one round penalty that normally ends before I would go.
Steidas
07-27-07, 01:15 PM Your init is not supposed to change once combat begins.
What are delays and readys then?

enemey goes
I take standard action causing my enmey a 1 round penalty that normallly would end BEFORE I can act again, then use move to speed myself up.

I go again, taking advantege of the one round penalty that normally ends before I would go.

We're talking about swift spells and the like right? I don't really understand much of what you said here, could you rephrase this, maybe expand it a bit more?
Dalthbar
07-27-07, 01:23 PM What are delays and readys then?

Ready and Delay actions are special and they take a standard action to use. So you totally give up your current round in order to possibly act later, when a particular action occurs. Remember that this action may not, actually happen and you've totally wasted a turn.

Either way, your new init then gets pegged to the point in which you delayed it - so you don't "bounce back" to where you started. This preserves the flow and balance of the initiative system.

Think about a Stunning Fist and someone with the Death Blow feat. That's basically a one-shot kill.
Steidas
07-27-07, 01:49 PM Ready and Delay actions are special and they take a standard action to use. So you totally give up your current round in order to possibly act later, when a particular action occurs. Remember that this action may not, actually happen and you've totally wasted a turn.
Delay doesn't take a standard action, it delays ALL your actions until a new point.

Either way, your new init then gets pegged to the point in which you delayed it - so you don't "bounce back" to where you started. This preserves the flow and balance of the initiative system.
This one doesn't get you back. Once you take the penalty, that's where you stay forever. You can once again start saving move actions to get back to an over 20 inititiative roll, but then you get no full round actions (no additional attacks).

Think about a Stunning Fist and someone with the Death Blow feat. That's basically a one-shot kill.
Stunned opponents aren't Helpless...
jaelis
07-27-07, 01:53 PM Your feat is kind of confusing, but if it lets you go twice in a row, it is almost certainly unbalanced.
Steidas
07-27-07, 02:02 PM Ok... let me clear up a bit on how it works:

1.)You roll initiative normally. That's your initiative count.
2.)In your turn, you can not take your move action and istead add your Dex modifier to your inititative count.
3.)If you do, you can add a -20 penalizer to your inititative. You act again in this same round on that initiative.
4.)If you took all previous actions you can take another standard action. You are then stunned until the end of your next turn.

Hmm come to think about it the last part is actually pretty good... so I would remove the 3rd one.
Dalthbar
07-27-07, 02:06 PM I don't understand step #2 since you already add your dex to your rolled initiative. So if in step #1 you're "rolling normally" (e.g., d20 + dex mod + any other initiative-modifying abilities), do you add your dex modifier a second time during step #2 all for losing your move action?
Steidas
07-27-07, 02:10 PM I don't understand step #2 since you already add your dex to your rolled initiative. So if in step #1 you're "rolling normally" (e.g., d20 + dex mod + any other initiative-modifying abilities), do you add your dex modifier a second time during step #2 all for losing your move action?

Say you have +8 in initiative. You roll a 9, thus get 17. In your action, you spend your move action, adding +4, getting 21. On your next turn, you're 21 in the initiative count... that's hwo it ORIGINALLY works. I posted it here to get opinions and changes.
jaelis
07-27-07, 02:14 PM OK, so I'm fighting Bob and Joe. I have a Dex of 18. I rolled a 22 for my initiative, Joe rolled a 23, and Bob rolled a 1.

Joes goes first, then I go. I take a standard action. Then I use your feat. My initiative becomes 24. If I leave it at that, I will go again before Joe's next turn.

Or I can now subtract 20 to make it 4, which comes before Bob and I get to go again immediately.

Furthermore, after that next turn, I can simply take another standard action, but that leaves me stunned so Bob and Joe both go twice before I'm awake again.

Is that the idea?
Steidas
07-27-07, 02:32 PM OK, so I'm fighting Bob and Joe. I have a Dex of 18. I rolled a 22 for my initiative, Joe rolled a 23, and Bob rolled a 1.

Joes goes first, then I go. I take a standard action. Then I use your feat. My initiative becomes 24. If I leave it at that, I will go again before Joe's next turn.

Or I can now subtract 20 to make it 4, which comes before Bob and I get to go again immediately.

Furthermore, after that next turn, I can simply take another standard action, but that leaves me stunned so Bob and Joe both go twice before I'm awake again.

Is that the idea?
More or less yeah, although the extra standard action thingy is quite overpowered (that'd be 3 spells in one turn) so I guess I'd change that maneuver to another one. Plus the spellcasting thing would be quite complicated. The two spells i can live with since the spell caster either moves into position or casts a spell with his first action and then leaves plenty of room for others to come in.
jaelis
07-27-07, 03:55 PM Besides it being overpowered, there's a mechanical aspect that doesn't really work the way you probably mean it to.

Lets say it's me vs Joe. I roll a 19, and Joe gets a 28... he's really quick. So he goes first, now it's my turn. With my 18 dex, I can bump my init to 21, then drop it down to 1. So I get to go twice, even though my actual initiative roll wasn't even close to Joe's. It seemed like you were looking more for a way to move ahead of someone just in front of you, not way in front of you.
Dalthbar
07-27-07, 04:00 PM Why not have a feat with a prereq of Imp. Initiative and this new feat gives you a bonus of +4 to your initiative and you can take it multiple times - it's effects stack with Imp. Init and itself?

If you're hell bent on "going first", then this will be the only real way, short of a super-high dex to do that.
Steidas
07-27-07, 11:41 PM Besides it being overpowered, there's a mechanical aspect that doesn't really work the way you probably mean it to.

Lets say it's me vs Joe. I roll a 19, and Joe gets a 28... he's really quick. So he goes first, now it's my turn. With my 18 dex, I can bump my init to 21, then drop it down to 1. So I get to go twice, even though my actual initiative roll wasn't even close to Joe's. It seemed like you were looking more for a way to move ahead of someone just in front of you, not way in front of you.
I was actually looking at this feat with a friend... and without number 3, all it does is give you 1 standard action "every now and then". This special case you mentioned, without third tactic gives you an additional standard action, and remember, you need DEX 19.

In a multienemy fight where you use it, if you get 2X inititative, you get a standard action, then most enemies will have theirs and THEN you get yours (again). Then, next round everyone still has their actions before you and now you act after all of them (because you act in your new initiative count). Removing tactic number 3, you're actually getting pretty much one standard action everynow and then.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Steidas 07-27-07, 12:44 PM	I actually saw this in another thread and I posted this variant. I actually liked it a lot, so tell me what do you think and what would you change. Whoever saw it in the previous posting, please read it again because I nerfed it. Quick Thinking [Tactical] You are always focused on combat, and have gained quicker reflexes. Prerequisites: Dex 19, Improved Initiative, Lightning Reflexes, Base Reflex Save +2 Benefits: You gain the following tactics: 1. You can spend your move action in adding half your Dex modifier to your inititative roll(modifying it for the rest of the encounter). 2. After you perform the previous maneuver, if your initiative count is more than 20, as an inmediate action you can give yourself a -20 penalty on it. If you would act again this turn because of it, you take normal actions (that is, a full round action, for example, you have a 21 initiative count, act, and then give yourself the -20 penalty, you act again on initiative 1). edit: This was the third tactic, and has been removed due to balancing issues: 3. If you take the previous penalty, you can take another standard action in that same round in your new initiative count, but right after you are stunned for 1 round (effectively until the end of your next turn).
tarkin 07-27-07, 01:10 PM	Your init is not supposed to change once combat begins. Allowing it to change can create certain abuses, such as: enemey goes I take standard action causing my enmey a 1 round penalty that normallly would end BEFORE I can act again, then use move to speed myself up. I go again, taking advantege of the one round penalty that normally ends before I would go.
Steidas 07-27-07, 01:15 PM	Your init is not supposed to change once combat begins. What are delays and readys then? enemey goes I take standard action causing my enmey a 1 round penalty that normallly would end BEFORE I can act again, then use move to speed myself up. I go again, taking advantege of the one round penalty that normally ends before I would go. We're talking about swift spells and the like right? I don't really understand much of what you said here, could you rephrase this, maybe expand it a bit more?
Dalthbar 07-27-07, 01:23 PM	What are delays and readys then? Ready and Delay actions are special and they take a standard action to use. So you totally give up your current round in order to possibly act later, when a particular action occurs. Remember that this action may not, actually happen and you've totally wasted a turn. Either way, your new init then gets pegged to the point in which you delayed it - so you don't "bounce back" to where you started. This preserves the flow and balance of the initiative system. Think about a Stunning Fist and someone with the Death Blow feat. That's basically a one-shot kill.
Steidas 07-27-07, 01:49 PM	Ready and Delay actions are special and they take a standard action to use. So you totally give up your current round in order to possibly act later, when a particular action occurs. Remember that this action may not, actually happen and you've totally wasted a turn. Delay doesn't take a standard action, it delays ALL your actions until a new point. Either way, your new init then gets pegged to the point in which you delayed it - so you don't "bounce back" to where you started. This preserves the flow and balance of the initiative system. This one doesn't get you back. Once you take the penalty, that's where you stay forever. You can once again start saving move actions to get back to an over 20 inititiative roll, but then you get no full round actions (no additional attacks). Think about a Stunning Fist and someone with the Death Blow feat. That's basically a one-shot kill. Stunned opponents aren't Helpless...
jaelis 07-27-07, 01:53 PM	Your feat is kind of confusing, but if it lets you go twice in a row, it is almost certainly unbalanced.
Steidas 07-27-07, 02:02 PM	Ok... let me clear up a bit on how it works: 1.)You roll initiative normally. That's your initiative count. 2.)In your turn, you can not take your move action and istead add your Dex modifier to your inititative count. 3.)If you do, you can add a -20 penalizer to your inititative. You act again in this same round on that initiative. 4.)If you took all previous actions you can take another standard action. You are then stunned until the end of your next turn. Hmm come to think about it the last part is actually pretty good... so I would remove the 3rd one.
Dalthbar 07-27-07, 02:06 PM	I don't understand step #2 since you already add your dex to your rolled initiative. So if in step #1 you're "rolling normally" (e.g., d20 + dex mod + any other initiative-modifying abilities), do you add your dex modifier a second time during step #2 all for losing your move action?
Steidas 07-27-07, 02:10 PM	I don't understand step #2 since you already add your dex to your rolled initiative. So if in step #1 you're "rolling normally" (e.g., d20 + dex mod + any other initiative-modifying abilities), do you add your dex modifier a second time during step #2 all for losing your move action? Say you have +8 in initiative. You roll a 9, thus get 17. In your action, you spend your move action, adding +4, getting 21. On your next turn, you're 21 in the initiative count... that's hwo it ORIGINALLY works. I posted it here to get opinions and changes.
jaelis 07-27-07, 02:14 PM	OK, so I'm fighting Bob and Joe. I have a Dex of 18. I rolled a 22 for my initiative, Joe rolled a 23, and Bob rolled a 1. Joes goes first, then I go. I take a standard action. Then I use your feat. My initiative becomes 24. If I leave it at that, I will go again before Joe's next turn. Or I can now subtract 20 to make it 4, which comes before Bob and I get to go again immediately. Furthermore, after that next turn, I can simply take another standard action, but that leaves me stunned so Bob and Joe both go twice before I'm awake again. Is that the idea?
Steidas 07-27-07, 02:32 PM	OK, so I'm fighting Bob and Joe. I have a Dex of 18. I rolled a 22 for my initiative, Joe rolled a 23, and Bob rolled a 1. Joes goes first, then I go. I take a standard action. Then I use your feat. My initiative becomes 24. If I leave it at that, I will go again before Joe's next turn. Or I can now subtract 20 to make it 4, which comes before Bob and I get to go again immediately. Furthermore, after that next turn, I can simply take another standard action, but that leaves me stunned so Bob and Joe both go twice before I'm awake again. Is that the idea? More or less yeah, although the extra standard action thingy is quite overpowered (that'd be 3 spells in one turn) so I guess I'd change that maneuver to another one. Plus the spellcasting thing would be quite complicated. The two spells i can live with since the spell caster either moves into position or casts a spell with his first action and then leaves plenty of room for others to come in.
jaelis 07-27-07, 03:55 PM	Besides it being overpowered, there's a mechanical aspect that doesn't really work the way you probably mean it to. Lets say it's me vs Joe. I roll a 19, and Joe gets a 28... he's really quick. So he goes first, now it's my turn. With my 18 dex, I can bump my init to 21, then drop it down to 1. So I get to go twice, even though my actual initiative roll wasn't even close to Joe's. It seemed like you were looking more for a way to move ahead of someone just in front of you, not way in front of you.
Dalthbar 07-27-07, 04:00 PM	Why not have a feat with a prereq of Imp. Initiative and this new feat gives you a bonus of +4 to your initiative and you can take it multiple times - it's effects stack with Imp. Init and itself? If you're hell bent on "going first", then this will be the only real way, short of a super-high dex to do that.
Steidas 07-27-07, 11:41 PM	Besides it being overpowered, there's a mechanical aspect that doesn't really work the way you probably mean it to. Lets say it's me vs Joe. I roll a 19, and Joe gets a 28... he's really quick. So he goes first, now it's my turn. With my 18 dex, I can bump my init to 21, then drop it down to 1. So I get to go twice, even though my actual initiative roll wasn't even close to Joe's. It seemed like you were looking more for a way to move ahead of someone just in front of you, not way in front of you. I was actually looking at this feat with a friend... and without number 3, all it does is give you 1 standard action "every now and then". This special case you mentioned, without third tactic gives you an additional standard action, and remember, you need DEX 19. In a multienemy fight where you use it, if you get 2X inititative, you get a standard action, then most enemies will have theirs and THEN you get yours (again). Then, next round everyone still has their actions before you and now you act after all of them (because you act in your new initiative count). Removing tactic number 3, you're actually getting pretty much one standard action everynow and then.