New feat: Supernatural Speed [Archive] - Wizards Community

New feat: Supernatural Speed [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Novacat
07-24-07, 08:28 PM I've been mulling this one over for a couple days, so I was hoping to get some feedback from all you forumites out there.

Supernatural Speed [General]
Your speed is augmented by some supernatural force, pushing your abilities beyond what is normally possible.
Prerequisites: DEX 21+, Improved Initiative, Lightning Reflexes, Base Speed 50+, must be some form of supernatural creature (such as aberration, outsider, undead, lycanthrope, etc; as the DM dictates)
Benefits: Whenever you roll an initiative total higher than 20, you gain a second initiative count at your normal initiative result -20. For instance, if you roll a 26 on initiative, you may take your turn on 26 and 6, gaining two turns per round. You must still acknowledge any "per-round" restrictions, such as only being able to cast 2 spells per round, and only making a single 5-foot step per round (with no other movement that round.

If your rolled initiative count is 20 or less, this feat grants no benefit.
Toptomcat
07-24-07, 09:06 PM Reminds me of Shadowrun. Also, not broken under normal circumstances, but capable of being broken in ways that are almost infinitely horrible.
Also, I philosophically dislike 'NPC only' feats, which seems to be your intent here.
zorgling25
07-24-07, 09:12 PM I'm a little skeptical about balance, because of how early on a scout could get it (almost guaranteed by level 12, earlier with a +dex race). I wouldn't give a 2nd initiative count, since that tends to be rules-hairy, and not make much flavor sense (since technically, all actions in the 6 seconds of a round are supposed to be somewhat simultaneous).

One of the best comparisons is probably the 3.0 ed version of haste, which was broken beyond belief, and it only gave an extra standard action, not an extra full round.

Possible reworks I can think of, replacing the extra initiative round:
-You gain an extra move action if you choose to forgo your swift action that round.
-You may make 2 immediate actions in a round
-You may move your speed as part of an immediate action
-Certain swift actions become free actions
JadeSpider9643
07-24-07, 10:12 PM I've been mulling this one over for a couple days, so I was hoping to get some feedback from all you forumites out there.

Supernatural Speed [General]
Your speed is augmented by some supernatural force, pushing your abilities beyond what is normally possible.
Prerequisites: DEX 21+, Improved Initiative, Lightning Reflexes, Base Speed 50+, must be some form of supernatural creature (such as aberration, outsider, undead, lycanthrope, etc; as the DM dictates)
Benefits: Whenever you roll an initiative total higher than 20, you gain a second initiative count at your normal initiative result -20. For instance, if you roll a 26 on initiative, you may take your turn on 26 and 6, gaining two turns per round. You must still acknowledge any "per-round" restrictions, such as only being able to cast 2 spells per round, and only making a single 5-foot step per round (with no other movement that round.

If your rolled initiative count is 20 or less, this feat grants no benefit.

I'm going to pause only to say that I'm not sure what you mean by "You must still acknowledge any "per-round" restrictions, such as only being able to cast 2 spells per round, and only making a single 5-foot step per round (with no other movement that round.)" what extra actions can i take exactly in my "2nd turn" each turn? I will now resume my initial knee-jerk reaction...

NO! IS MAD BROKEN CONCEPT! NO!
Not even with insane impossible pre-requisites, because nothing is impossible except this!

[/knee-jerk reaction]
problem 1: it's WAY too powerful, a full-round melee attack plus a full-round casting spell each turn? or 2 full-round melee attacks? nothing good can come of this. Many things don't have an expressed "only once per turn" limit because it's obvious that you only get 1 full-round action per turn, and these things become increasingly powerful if you can all of a sudden do them twice.

problem 2: mechanicaly confusing. say a spellcaster gets this and casts a spell that has "1 round" casting time. does he finish on his 2nd turn? what can he do during that 2nd turn? can he use some of the actions from one of those turns to maintain concentration and still cast other spells? if you ready an action on your first turn to do action A, can you change that on your 2nd turn to action B? can you take some other action and still have that readied action A avaliable?
zorgling25
07-24-07, 10:46 PM I've already mentioned some of the other issues, as well as possible fixes.

The problem is that its supposed to be an impossible to acquire feat with a very unlikely activation. The thing is, its not even close to impossible to acquire (with the right race choice, its quite possible to reach this by level 6 or so, making it ABSOLUTELY unfair), and raises much too many mechanical and flavor issues. Basically, its going to be a horridly brokenly good player option that no one will want to play (like the cleric :D).

I'm thinking that the possibility of move as part of an immediate action is probably quite viable though.

How about this?

Reactive Step [General]
Even when making sudden reactions, you maintain your ability to stay on your feet.
Prerequisites: DEX 13+, Base Speed 40+.
Benefits: Whenever you make an immediate action, if you have not moved this turn, you may move your speed.
Novacat
07-25-07, 07:24 AM Thanks for the feedback. Yeah, I figured it wouldn't fly. It was actually intended for a certain group of "vampiric" NPCs in the campaign I'm running now. They're actually a custom race, and this ability is something I thought one or two may have. Didn't really want it to be a racial trait, since not all of them have it, so I thought of it as a feat.

I guess I'll be assigning it as a racial trait after all, then. Don't worry; I never intended to open it up for players, and would never ask a DM if I could take it for my own character.
Part-Human2
07-25-07, 05:15 PM Sounds like a good EPIC feat.
Witch
07-25-07, 05:24 PM Sounds like a good EPIC feat.
No it doesn't sound like a good epic feat. People should stop saying everything that is horridly powerful is a good epic feat, because this thing is imbalanced as hell, both at 1-20 and at epic.
Steidas
07-25-07, 05:57 PM Allright, how about:
Supernatural Speed [Tactical]
Your speed is augmented by some supernatural force, pushing your abilities beyond what is normally possible.
Prerequisites: DEX 21+, Improved Initiative, Lightning Reflexes, Base Reflex Save +2
Benefits: You gain the following tactics:
1. You can spend your move action in adding half your Dex modifier to your inititative roll(modifying it for the rest of the encounter).
2. If your initiative is more than 20, as an inmediate action you can give yourself a -20 penalty on it. If you would act again this turn because of it, you take normal actions. (for example, you have 21 initiative, act, and then give yourself the -20 penalty, you act again on initiative 1).
3. If you take the previous penalty, you can take another standard action in that same round in your new initiative count, but right after you are stunned for 1 round (effectively until the end of your next turn).
zorgling25
07-25-07, 10:22 PM Thanks for the feedback. Yeah, I figured it wouldn't fly. It was actually intended for a certain group of "vampiric" NPCs in the campaign I'm running now. They're actually a custom race, and this ability is something I thought one or two may have. Didn't really want it to be a racial trait, since not all of them have it, so I thought of it as a feat.

I guess I'll be assigning it as a racial trait after all, then. Don't worry; I never intended to open it up for players, and would never ask a DM if I could take it for my own character.

I can see the players having a nightmare with this one. And if you use the 2-initiative count mess you came up with at first, your rules-geeks might throw fits (or anyone else, once the rules become hairy and hard to track).

If you must use it, I would HIGHLY suggest keeping things to the same initiative count (or have it modify the ready action, such as say, ready becomes a swift action).

And I'm glad you'd never give this to a player, because this is what I came up with:
Xeph Scout, starting dex 19, hits 21 at level 8. By then he has the prerequisite feats and and everything else. He takes the feat at level 9.
He has an initiative of 9 or 10 (forget when scouts get battle fortitude +1), meaning that he can roll above 20 about 1/2 the time. If he takes a feat that lets him reroll initiative, meaning he has a 3/4 chance in a given encounter of rolling above 20.
For 3 out of every 4 encounters, this means he can move and attack in his first set of actions for Skirmish damage. On his second set of actions, since he moved THAT ROUND, he can apply Skirmish damage to a FULL ATTACK.
JadeSpider9643
07-25-07, 11:08 PM Here's the thing.....DIETIES DON'T GET ABILITIES ON THIS LEVEL!
[Fin]
Lord_Ao
07-26-07, 12:35 AM Yeah dude, way too powerful...and confusing. I recommend nt using it period, but it's up to you

No it doesn't sound like a good epic feat. People should stop saying everything that is horridly powerful is a good epic feat, because this thing is imbalanced as hell, both at 1-20 and at epic.

Haha, agreed

Here's the thing.....DIETIES DON'T GET ABILITIES ON THIS LEVEL!
[Fin]

'tis true, but I do know of one certain ability that a certain God of War (Tempus) gets which would probably be about half as good as this feat. On every single attack he makes Tempus automatically gets a natural 20 (crit threat) without even rolling, he then rolls normally to confirm the critical.
Pretty nifty ability, I gotta get me some o' that :D.
Novacat
07-26-07, 01:52 AM 'tis true, but I do know of one certain ability that a certain God of War (Tempus) gets which would probably be about half as good as this feat. On every single attack he makes Tempus automatically gets a natural 20 (crit threat) without even rolling, he then rolls normally to confirm the critical.
Pretty nifty ability, I gotta get me some o' that :D.
That's how all deities are. They automatically treat any d20 roll as a natural 20, but must roll normally to confirm the critical threat (which is for all attacks). This is true for saves, skills, ability checks, etc.

Points taken and considered. Thanks, yall.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Novacat 07-24-07, 08:28 PM	I've been mulling this one over for a couple days, so I was hoping to get some feedback from all you forumites out there. Supernatural Speed [General] Your speed is augmented by some supernatural force, pushing your abilities beyond what is normally possible. Prerequisites: DEX 21+, Improved Initiative, Lightning Reflexes, Base Speed 50+, must be some form of supernatural creature (such as aberration, outsider, undead, lycanthrope, etc; as the DM dictates) Benefits: Whenever you roll an initiative total higher than 20, you gain a second initiative count at your normal initiative result -20. For instance, if you roll a 26 on initiative, you may take your turn on 26 and 6, gaining two turns per round. You must still acknowledge any "per-round" restrictions, such as only being able to cast 2 spells per round, and only making a single 5-foot step per round (with no other movement that round. If your rolled initiative count is 20 or less, this feat grants no benefit.
Toptomcat 07-24-07, 09:06 PM	Reminds me of Shadowrun. Also, not broken under normal circumstances, but capable of being broken in ways that are almost infinitely horrible. Also, I philosophically dislike 'NPC only' feats, which seems to be your intent here.
zorgling25 07-24-07, 09:12 PM	I'm a little skeptical about balance, because of how early on a scout could get it (almost guaranteed by level 12, earlier with a +dex race). I wouldn't give a 2nd initiative count, since that tends to be rules-hairy, and not make much flavor sense (since technically, all actions in the 6 seconds of a round are supposed to be somewhat simultaneous). One of the best comparisons is probably the 3.0 ed version of haste, which was broken beyond belief, and it only gave an extra standard action, not an extra full round. Possible reworks I can think of, replacing the extra initiative round: -You gain an extra move action if you choose to forgo your swift action that round. -You may make 2 immediate actions in a round -You may move your speed as part of an immediate action -Certain swift actions become free actions
JadeSpider9643 07-24-07, 10:12 PM	I've been mulling this one over for a couple days, so I was hoping to get some feedback from all you forumites out there. Supernatural Speed [General] Your speed is augmented by some supernatural force, pushing your abilities beyond what is normally possible. Prerequisites: DEX 21+, Improved Initiative, Lightning Reflexes, Base Speed 50+, must be some form of supernatural creature (such as aberration, outsider, undead, lycanthrope, etc; as the DM dictates) Benefits: Whenever you roll an initiative total higher than 20, you gain a second initiative count at your normal initiative result -20. For instance, if you roll a 26 on initiative, you may take your turn on 26 and 6, gaining two turns per round. You must still acknowledge any "per-round" restrictions, such as only being able to cast 2 spells per round, and only making a single 5-foot step per round (with no other movement that round. If your rolled initiative count is 20 or less, this feat grants no benefit. I'm going to pause only to say that I'm not sure what you mean by "You must still acknowledge any "per-round" restrictions, such as only being able to cast 2 spells per round, and only making a single 5-foot step per round (with no other movement that round.)" what extra actions can i take exactly in my "2nd turn" each turn? I will now resume my initial knee-jerk reaction... NO! IS MAD BROKEN CONCEPT! NO! Not even with insane impossible pre-requisites, because nothing is impossible except this! [/knee-jerk reaction] problem 1: it's WAY too powerful, a full-round melee attack plus a full-round casting spell each turn? or 2 full-round melee attacks? nothing good can come of this. Many things don't have an expressed "only once per turn" limit because it's obvious that you only get 1 full-round action per turn, and these things become increasingly powerful if you can all of a sudden do them twice. problem 2: mechanicaly confusing. say a spellcaster gets this and casts a spell that has "1 round" casting time. does he finish on his 2nd turn? what can he do during that 2nd turn? can he use some of the actions from one of those turns to maintain concentration and still cast other spells? if you ready an action on your first turn to do action A, can you change that on your 2nd turn to action B? can you take some other action and still have that readied action A avaliable?
zorgling25 07-24-07, 10:46 PM	I've already mentioned some of the other issues, as well as possible fixes. The problem is that its supposed to be an impossible to acquire feat with a very unlikely activation. The thing is, its not even close to impossible to acquire (with the right race choice, its quite possible to reach this by level 6 or so, making it ABSOLUTELY unfair), and raises much too many mechanical and flavor issues. Basically, its going to be a horridly brokenly good player option that no one will want to play (like the cleric :D). I'm thinking that the possibility of move as part of an immediate action is probably quite viable though. How about this? Reactive Step [General] Even when making sudden reactions, you maintain your ability to stay on your feet. Prerequisites: DEX 13+, Base Speed 40+. Benefits: Whenever you make an immediate action, if you have not moved this turn, you may move your speed.
Novacat 07-25-07, 07:24 AM	Thanks for the feedback. Yeah, I figured it wouldn't fly. It was actually intended for a certain group of "vampiric" NPCs in the campaign I'm running now. They're actually a custom race, and this ability is something I thought one or two may have. Didn't really want it to be a racial trait, since not all of them have it, so I thought of it as a feat. I guess I'll be assigning it as a racial trait after all, then. Don't worry; I never intended to open it up for players, and would never ask a DM if I could take it for my own character.
Part-Human2 07-25-07, 05:15 PM	Sounds like a good EPIC feat.
Witch 07-25-07, 05:24 PM	Sounds like a good EPIC feat. No it doesn't sound like a good epic feat. People should stop saying everything that is horridly powerful is a good epic feat, because this thing is imbalanced as hell, both at 1-20 and at epic.
Steidas 07-25-07, 05:57 PM	Allright, how about: Supernatural Speed [Tactical] Your speed is augmented by some supernatural force, pushing your abilities beyond what is normally possible. Prerequisites: DEX 21+, Improved Initiative, Lightning Reflexes, Base Reflex Save +2 Benefits: You gain the following tactics: 1. You can spend your move action in adding half your Dex modifier to your inititative roll(modifying it for the rest of the encounter). 2. If your initiative is more than 20, as an inmediate action you can give yourself a -20 penalty on it. If you would act again this turn because of it, you take normal actions. (for example, you have 21 initiative, act, and then give yourself the -20 penalty, you act again on initiative 1). 3. If you take the previous penalty, you can take another standard action in that same round in your new initiative count, but right after you are stunned for 1 round (effectively until the end of your next turn).
zorgling25 07-25-07, 10:22 PM	Thanks for the feedback. Yeah, I figured it wouldn't fly. It was actually intended for a certain group of "vampiric" NPCs in the campaign I'm running now. They're actually a custom race, and this ability is something I thought one or two may have. Didn't really want it to be a racial trait, since not all of them have it, so I thought of it as a feat. I guess I'll be assigning it as a racial trait after all, then. Don't worry; I never intended to open it up for players, and would never ask a DM if I could take it for my own character. I can see the players having a nightmare with this one. And if you use the 2-initiative count mess you came up with at first, your rules-geeks might throw fits (or anyone else, once the rules become hairy and hard to track). If you must use it, I would HIGHLY suggest keeping things to the same initiative count (or have it modify the ready action, such as say, ready becomes a swift action). And I'm glad you'd never give this to a player, because this is what I came up with: Xeph Scout, starting dex 19, hits 21 at level 8. By then he has the prerequisite feats and and everything else. He takes the feat at level 9. He has an initiative of 9 or 10 (forget when scouts get battle fortitude +1), meaning that he can roll above 20 about 1/2 the time. If he takes a feat that lets him reroll initiative, meaning he has a 3/4 chance in a given encounter of rolling above 20. For 3 out of every 4 encounters, this means he can move and attack in his first set of actions for Skirmish damage. On his second set of actions, since he moved THAT ROUND, he can apply Skirmish damage to a FULL ATTACK.
JadeSpider9643 07-25-07, 11:08 PM	Here's the thing.....DIETIES DON'T GET ABILITIES ON THIS LEVEL! [Fin]
Lord_Ao 07-26-07, 12:35 AM	Yeah dude, way too powerful...and confusing. I recommend nt using it period, but it's up to you No it doesn't sound like a good epic feat. People should stop saying everything that is horridly powerful is a good epic feat, because this thing is imbalanced as hell, both at 1-20 and at epic. Haha, agreed Here's the thing.....DIETIES DON'T GET ABILITIES ON THIS LEVEL! [Fin] 'tis true, but I do know of one certain ability that a certain God of War (Tempus) gets which would probably be about half as good as this feat. On every single attack he makes Tempus automatically gets a natural 20 (crit threat) without even rolling, he then rolls normally to confirm the critical. Pretty nifty ability, I gotta get me some o' that :D.
Novacat 07-26-07, 01:52 AM	'tis true, but I do know of one certain ability that a certain God of War (Tempus) gets which would probably be about half as good as this feat. On every single attack he makes Tempus automatically gets a natural 20 (crit threat) without even rolling, he then rolls normally to confirm the critical. Pretty nifty ability, I gotta get me some o' that :D. That's how all deities are. They automatically treat any d20 roll as a natural 20, but must roll normally to confirm the critical threat (which is for all attacks). This is true for saves, skills, ability checks, etc. Points taken and considered. Thanks, yall.