Post/Author/DateTime	Post
1stCainite 04-19-07, 06:55 AM	My group and i have been discussing the various create undead and animate dead spells, ad we have come to the conclusion, that they do not serve our undead creation needs and expectations, and therefore have been targeted for screening and replacement by a more efficient means. We have decided to remove all spells concerning undead creation, and replace them with a feat that is in essence a collection of rituals concerning creation of undead. We find that this fits our expectations of what undead creation should be much better than any of the current spells. What I would like help with is the actual formulation of the feat. what i have so far is the following. Undead Creation Prerequisites: Feat, Corpse Crafter feat, Skill, Craft: Corpse Rank 8 Description. This feat allows the user to create various undead. The types of undead he or she is able to depends on both a ritual check (knowledge Religion check modified by the modifiers shown on page 27 of BoVD table 2-1), and on the amounts of gold spent in the creation. The creation of an undead requires a ritual, lasting fifteen minutes per hit die of the created undead, including the class levels of a templated undead. List of undead available without research. Undead Ritual check Gold Skeleton 15 25 per HD. Zombie 15 25 per HD Ghoul 22 50 per HD Ghast 23 50 per HD Mummy 26 50 per HD Shadow 26 50 per HD Wraith 27 50 per HD Morgh 32 50 per HD Devourer 35 50 per HD To create an undead with class levels, you are required to first cast a Trap the Soul spell on the victim or have an willing subject, and your victim have to be alive for the ritual, something that is excruciatingly painful to the subject. Any thoughts? I'd like a little help, both to balance it, and some advice on how researching new undead types could happen.
katarl 04-19-07, 10:18 AM	Sounds good, but it does change quite a lot, you'd want skill-monkeys to play necromancers instead of casters. I'd recommend a spell-slot (or more) to still be used to represent undead creation as something *magical*. Also, why does it require corpsecrafter? Doesn't that does away completely with the idea of a 'standard' undead (you'd have to modify all the stats for a normal skeleton). Also, i don't know if craft-corpse is necessary either, you've already got a knowledge religion check, why require ranks in one, only to use another? You require a bovd ritual- does that require a living sacrifice? Are any of them under your control? If so, how many can you have? I'd recommend, k. religion 8 ranks requirement instead, with a lower ritual check to create the undead, then a more difficult one to control them, and you can control 4x your ranks in k. religion., or cl, and the ritual requires expending spell levels equal to the dc/5. I'd also require additional special requirements, eg. a mohrg must have murdered at least 2 people. Other undead to research? The bone, corpse, mummified and grave-touched ghoul templates are already possible with trap the soul, but other ideas include slaymates and other libris mortis stuff. Researching these new types could require feats (eg. a feat might allow you to create ghasts, vampires and other cannibalistic creatures, while another might let you create ghosts), it could be just from gaining ranks in k. religion, or could require tomes (treasure).
Thiez 04-19-07, 10:26 AM	Somehow I always feel hurt when someone posts the same thread on two different parts of the forum. 1stCainite doesn't think we people from the Magic And Spells board can come up with good answer! :weep: This (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=832080) is the other thread. 1stCainite, I don't know about the rest of the users, but I'd prefer it if you would stick to a single thread next time (though I must admit, this board seems more appropriate than Magic and Spells).
1stCainite 04-19-07, 10:48 AM	Sounds good, but it does change quite a lot, you'd want skill-monkeys to play necromancers instead of casters. I'd recommend a spell-slot (or more) to still be used to represent undead creation as something *magical*. yes, you are right, i hadn't thought of that. how about adding a caster level prerequisite to the feat? i am loath to add that kind of limitation to the individual undead types, because then it might as well be the original spells... more or less. [edit: and yes, a spell slot usage would be a good idea. any specific ideas? im not too used to tweaking the system in this way] Also, why does it require corpsecrafter? Doesn't that does away completely with the idea of a 'standard' undead (you'd have to modify all the stats for a normal skeleton). Also, i don't know if craft-corpse is necessary either, you've already got a knowledge religion check, why require ranks in one, only to use another? True, regarding the feat, my reasoning was that undead crafters should be dedicated to that field, and actually wouldn't be able to make any undead before they were able to understand the deeper aspects of stitching together an undead. (not just having enough ranks) as for the skill ranks my reasoning was that knowledge of undead wouldn't be enough, actual hands on experience is the only thing that'll do it. You require a bovd ritual- does that require a living sacrifice? Are any of them under your control? If so, how many can you have? no, the only reason i refer to BoVD is for the table to refer to the bonuses, a living tortured victim ofcourse wouldn't hurt the process (as per the bonuses) I'd recommend, k. religion 8 ranks requirement instead, with a lower ritual check to create the undead, then a more difficult one to control them, and you can control 4x your ranks in k. religion., or cl, and the ritual requires expending spell levels equal to the dc/5. I'd also require additional special requirements, eg. a mohrg must have murdered at least 2 people. I would very much like to stick with the C. Corpes as a prerequisite, for the above reason. As for the controlling of undead, that sounds like a good idea. Other undead to research? The bone, corpse, mummified and grave-touched ghoul templates are already possible with trap the soul, but other ideas include slaymates and other libris mortis stuff. Researching these new types could require feats (eg. a feat might allow you to create ghasts, vampires and other cannibalistic creatures, while another might let you create ghosts), it could be just from gaining ranks in k. religion, or could require tomes (treasure). I would like to avoid too many feats involved, but given my above argument of making the creater a focused one, i can agree with this :) Thiez: I closed the other thread, i agree, i was just a bit impatient today due to boredom. thank you. Thank you to both posters so far.
Throg 04-19-07, 11:22 AM	My group and i have been discussing the various create undead and animate dead spells, ad we have come to the conclusion, that they do not serve our undead creation needs and expectations, and therefore have been targeted for screening and replacement by a more efficient means. We have decided to remove all spells concerning undead creation, and replace them with a feat that is in essence a collection of rituals concerning creation of undead. We find that this fits our expectations of what undead creation should be much better than any of the current spells. What I would like help with is the actual formulation of the feat. what i have so far is the following. Any thoughts? I'd like a little help, both to balance it, and some advice on how researching new undead types could happen. Hmm.. I think as you have it, the DC is too low to create undead. Sure, Skeletons are rather weak.. untill you create a 10 HD undead Skeleton at level 5 the way you have it set up, and only have to roll a 7+ (Probably less if you have a good Int Mod) and use 250g worth of stuff. I like how you have it set up, but perhaps you should have the DC's include +HD +LA(If Applicable). This would keep players from creating the 10 HD Templated Skeleton from hell for only a DC 15 check and a pitly amount of money for the gain, at level 5. Perhaps start the cost at 100g/HD. Hmm, perhaps you should require 3rd level Divine Spells as a Preq, or the ability to Rebuke Undead. One of those would work well, as Rebuke Undead could be how the crafter actually controls the Undead they create. Infact.. that's a perfect way to do it! Heh, well that's my 2 pennies.
1stCainite 04-20-07, 02:45 AM	After a little tweaking and looking through the rules i have come up with the following modifications: Undead Creation Prerequisites: Feat, Corpse Crafter feat, Skill, Craft: Corpse Rank 8 Description. This feat allows the user to create various undead. The types of undead he or she is able to depends on both a ritual check (knowledge Religion check modified by the modifiers shown on page 27 of BoVD table 2-1) with a dificulty of the monsters 2xHD + LA + 10 (+20 for incorporeal undead), and on the amounts of gold spent in the creation. The creation of an undead requires a ritual, lasting twenty minutes per HD + LA of the created undead, including the class levels of a templated undead. At the ending of the ritual, the ritual requires the expenditure of a spell level equaling (HD + LA) / 4 rounded up. List of undead available without research. Undead Ritual check Gold Skeleton 12+ 25 per HD. Zombie 12+ 25 per HD Ghoul 14+ 50 per HD Ghast 18+ 50 per HD Mummy 26+ 50 per HD Shadow 26+ 50 per HD Wraith 30+ 50 per HD Morgh 38+ 50 per HD Devourer 34+ 50 per HD To create an undead with class levels, you are required to first cast a Trap the Soul spell on the victim or have an willing subject, and your victim have to be alive for the ritual, something that is excruciatingly painful to the subject. Howdoes these changes look?
Thiez 04-20-07, 08:10 AM	The creation of an undead requires a ritual, lasting twenty minutes per HD + LA of the created undead, including the class levels of a templated undead. This only includes class levels if the undead has a template? You know templates are something that hasn't got anything to do with class levels, right? Why do you keep using LA? Devourer hasn't got a LA, so you can't make it with this skill, even though you have the proper feats and it's mentioned in the 'available' list?
1stCainite 04-20-07, 08:45 AM	This only includes class levels if the undead has a template? You know templates are something that hasn't got anything to do with class levels, right? With the rules I am trying to create, you cannot make, for example, a Mummy with 15 fighter levels. But you can make a Mummyfied creature with 15 class levels. I am unsure what you mean by a template having nothing to do with class levels though. Why do you keep using LA? Devourer hasn't got a LA, so you can't make it with this skill, even though you have the proper feats and it's mentioned in the 'available' list? In the case of a creature with LA - i would assume that - equals 0.
1stCainite 04-20-07, 09:12 AM	Additionally after looking through the modifers from the BoVD, I have come to the conclusion, that I had better make my own table, since the modifiers there readdy aren't conductive with I am trying to do, so here is a revised version, based on that same table. Creation modifiers Conducted in a ceremony of at least an hour plus the time needed to create the undead +1 Conducted on an altar to an Evil god +2 Conducted in a Desecrated area +1 Conducted in an Unhallowed area +2 Conducted on a Cemetary +1 Conducted before more than 10 living followers +1 Conducted before more than 100 living followers +2 Subject is tortured for more than one day before creation +1 Sacrifice is evil alligned +1 Subject is willing but duped or controlled +1 Subject is genuinely willing +3
Thiez 04-20-07, 09:14 AM	In the case of a creature with LA - i would assume that - equals 0. I'm afraid that is an incorrect assumption. LA - usually means you shouldn't play that monster. Example: animals are LA -. You might want to use CR instead of LA.
1stCainite 04-20-07, 09:15 AM	I'm afraid that is an incorrect assumption. LA - usually means you shouldn't play that monster. Example: animals are LA -. You might want to use CR instead of LA. Yes, but in the context of this feat, that would be what a LA of - would mean. [EDIT: i do not wish to use CR, because what i want to prevent with the LA modification, is that people can make a 10 HD vampite for a DC of 30.]
Throg 04-20-07, 09:35 AM	I'm afraid that is an incorrect assumption. LA - usually means you shouldn't play that monster. Example: animals are LA -. You might want to use CR instead of LA. What the LA is about is when a template is applied to a monster. That +1 LA ect, that's what is added on. This is to stop Template Abuse really, as seen with the Effigy Master.
katarl 04-20-07, 11:48 AM	Hmm, perhaps you should require 3rd level Divine Spells as a Preq, or the ability to Rebuke Undead. One of those would work well, as Rebuke Undead could be how the crafter actually controls the Undead they create. Infact.. that's a perfect way to do it! Heh, well that's my 2 pennies. No, don't do that, what will the necromaster powergamers do? Also, what will wizards do? I like Faust arcane types, don't take them away! as for the skill ranks my reasoning was that knowledge of undead wouldn't be enough, actual hands on experience is the only thing that'll do it. I would very much like to stick with the C. Corpes as a prerequisite, for the above reason. As for the controlling of undead, that sounds like a good idea. Okay, i'm convinced, another suggestion, you haven't explained controlling the undead yet (at least i don't think you have), so you could try c.corpse to create the undead, and then k.religion to control it, which would let you use c.corpse in the ritual. Arcana evolved has a system like this, the undead makes a will save against your spell dc. I like how you have it set up, but perhaps you should have the DC's include +HD +LA(If Applicable). This would keep players from creating the 10 HD Templated Skeleton from hell for only a DC 15 check and a pitly amount of money for the gain, at level 5. Perhaps start the cost at 100g/HD. I like this idea too, hd of creature is important. I don't know if increasing the cost is necessary though, but the dc sure is. (I think this change has already been made) LA for templates added sounds good, don't forget a material cost too! It makes it spicy.
1stCainite 04-20-07, 09:58 PM	about to go to bed now after a lengthy play session, will reply onthis tomorrow. (just a much a note to self as to the board)
1stCainite 04-21-07, 09:37 AM	The so far final version, how does it look? Undead Creation Prerequisites: Feat, Corpse Crafter feat, Skill, Craft: Corpse Rank 8 Description. This feat allows the user to create various undead. The types of undead he or she is able to depends on both a ritual check (Craft Corpse check modified by the modifiers shown on the below table) with a dificulty of the monsters 2xHD + LA + 10 (+20 for incorporeal undead) [EDIT: +5 if you want the bonuses from the Corpse Crafter feats to be a part of the undeads abilities], and on the amounts of gold spent in the creation. The creation of an undead requires a ritual, lasting twenty minutes per HD + LA of the created undead, including the class levels of a templated undead. The number of undead Creator is able to ontrol at any given time equals to four times his Caster Level for necromantic spells or his Rebuking level, which ever is greater. Unintelligent Undead recieve no save against the control of the creator, but intelligent undead recieve a save with a DC of 10 + the Knowledge Religion modifier of the creator At the ending of the ritual, the ritual requires the expenditure of a spell level equaling (HD + LA) / 4 rounded up. List of undead available without research. Undead Ritual check Gold Skeleton 12+ 25 per HD. Zombie 12+ 25 per HD Ghoul 14+ 50 per HD Ghast 18+ 50 per HD Mummy 26+ 50 per HD Shadow 26+ 50 per HD Wraith 30+ 50 per HD Morgh 38+ 50 per HD Devourer 34+ 50 per HD The modifiers' table is as follows: Creation modifiers Conducted in a ceremony of at least an hour plus the time needed to create the undead +1 Conducted on an altar to an Evil god +2 Conducted in a Desecrated area +1 Conducted in an Unhallowed area +2 Conducted on a Cemetary +1 Conducted before more than 10 living followers +1 Conducted before more than 100 living followers +2 Subject is tortured for more than one day before creation +1 Sacrifice is evil alligned +1 Subject is willing but duped or controlled +1 Subject is genuinely willing +3 To create an undead with class levels, you are required to first cast a Trap the Soul spell on the victim or have an willing subject, and your victim have to be alive for the ritual, something that is excruciatingly painful to the subject.
Thiez 04-21-07, 12:03 PM	Those modifiers are pretty nice... A 1 hour evil ceremony (+1) on the altar of an evil god (+2) on a cemetary (+1) that is both desecrated (+1) and unhallowed (+2), using an evil (+1) subject that was tickeld for 2 days (+1) and willing (+3) and charmed to reinforce this (+1) for a grant total of +1 +2 +1 +1 +2 +1 +1 +3 +1 = +13
1stCainite 04-21-07, 01:57 PM	Edited in an added DC that i forgot to add earlier (+5 to get the bonuses from the Corpse Crafter feats) Those modifiers are pretty nice... A 1 hour evil ceremony (+1) on the altar of an evil god (+2) on a cemetary (+1) that is both desecrated (+1) and unhallowed (+2), using an evil (+1) subject that was tickeld for 2 days (+1) and willing (+3) and charmed to reinforce this (+1) for a grant total of +1 +2 +1 +1 +2 +1 +1 +3 +1 = +13 Yes the bonuses are good, but also takes work, though you cannot both be willing, and be cajoled/charmed into participatin.