Post/Author/DateTime	Post
TiwazTyrsfist 07-11-07, 10:31 AM	Here's an idea for a meta-magic feat I've been kicking around for a while. Underpower Spell Reqs: Heighten spell, Spellcraft (6 ranks) Benefit: You may prepare or cast a spell using a slot one level lower than normal. All level based effects are treated as if you were the minimum level to cast a spell of the modified level. Additionally, because the spell is under powered, the save DC is reduced by 4. May not reduce a spell below level 1. May not reduce a spell more than one level, because you can't apply it more than once, DUH! May only be applied to spells whose effects are level dependent variables. You may not apply this feat in conjunction with any other metamagic feat. Example of using this feat. Tim, the wizard, with int of 16, prepares an Underpowered Fireball. It takes a 2nd level slot (rather than 3rd). When cast, the damage is 3d6 (since wizards can cast 2nd level spells at level 3) and the range is 520 ft (400 + 40x3) The reflex save DC is 11 (10 + 2 spell lvl + 3 int bonus -4 underpower) Note that a sorcerer doing the same thing would do 4d6 damage and have a range of 560ft, because the minimum level for sorcerers to cast 2nd level spells is 4. Let me know what you think.
Dalthbar 07-11-07, 10:47 AM	So how does this work with a spell like Awaken - it's duration is Instantaneous and there's no level-dependent variables. I've seen other attempts at this sort of metamagic feat and I've yet to see one that is balanced across all spell levels or spell types/schools.
jaelis 07-11-07, 10:59 AM	Yes, it breaks for any spell that has no save and that doesn't depend on caster level. There are very many of those, from true strike to time stop.
Moldiver 07-11-07, 11:13 AM	That would be easy. You just add to the description that the metamagic can't be applied to a spell that lacks variables.
jaelis 07-11-07, 11:22 AM	Time stop has a variable. So does ice storm. But neither are save- or level-dependent. That's all I can think of off the top of my head, but I bet there's more.
TiwazTyrsfist 07-11-07, 11:39 AM	Perhaps the caveat that it can only be applied to spells with level dependent variables. It would certainly be broken to allow it with spells like awaken, or power word kill
Dalthbar 07-11-07, 12:18 PM	Personally, I just think that it's a bad idea all around. Spell levels are designed as "containers for power" and spell levels are hardly linear. Gaining "an effect" at a lower level is just so potentially abusive. There's so many instances in which reduced variable effects (for those spells with variable effects) are not going to necessarily counter the power gained by memorizing a spell in a lower slot. I'm sure we could brainstorm and come up with a few spells per level that are simply abusive no matter how we tool the language. What about Wish? Gaining that as an 8th level spell is just dumb, no matter how much you try to nerf the feat language. Just go down the list of 9th level spells and you should realize how bad of an idea this is.
Witch 07-11-07, 12:24 PM	Limit it to spells which have variables as their primary function, and reduce the range of those variables suitably. I.e., a Time Stop would only have 2 rounds, a Fireball would deal 10 damage, a Delayed Blast Fireball would only deal 20 damage, etcetera. If there's some way of even getting Time Stop out of the possibilities, without ad hoc ruling, then by all means do so. That might be a way of having the effect be somewhat balanced (possibly a little weak).
tarkin 07-11-07, 12:47 PM	This idea has been done before. As others state, the concept of a negative level metamagic is SERIOUSLY flawed. People just hunt down a spell where the weakness is not relevant to the spell. The best similar idea I have seen are +0 metamagics that combine appropriate weakneesses with appropriate strengths, such as the following: Quick and Strong. Can only be applied to a spell with a duration of at least two rounds, and one that can be empowered. The duration of the spell is halved, but the variable effect does 25% more than usual. Example, Acid Fog Quick and Strong lasts for only 1 round every 2 levels, but does 2d6*1.25 damage. each round. This metamagic feat is +0 cost.
Bob Loblaw 07-11-07, 01:00 PM	I think this would be better done as a reserve feat. To me, the reserve feats do this already. They give you a lesser effect that you can use as often as you want for a specific spell type.
RobbyPants 07-11-07, 01:41 PM	I think this would be better done as a reserve feat. To me, the reserve feats do this already. They give you a lesser effect that you can use as often as you want for a specific spell type. Agreed. That's what I was thining. Of course, you have to take a different reserve feat for each type of spell, but as others have noted, this type of blanket feat is pretty unbalanced, and can be broken quickly.
Vaelan 07-11-07, 03:45 PM	I Underpower Polar Ray to use a first-level spell slot. It deals 15d6 cold damage. Sure beats the 5d8 a Lesser Orb deals! I Underpower a Meteor Swarm to use a first-level spell slot. It deals 32d6 damage to the person I nail with it and everyone else probably makes a save for half (12d6) damage. I'm still using a first level spell slot to deal 32d6 damage to one person and 12d6 damage, with a possibility of 24d6 damage, to an area. I Underpower Horrid Wilting. It deals 15d6 damage with an easy save for half. I'm still dealing 7.5d6 to number of targets with a first level spell slot. I Underpower Bigby's Crushing Hand. It only lasts 17 rounds instead of the normal 20. Pretty good deal for only using a first-level spell slot! I Underpower any high level spell. My caster level is largely unaffected and I only use a first-level spell slot.
RobbyPants 07-11-07, 03:52 PM	I don't think that's quite how it works. You only lower the slot of the spell by one level, not down to level 1. Still, it is a pretty abusable feat.
Witch 07-11-07, 04:46 PM	Diminish Spell [Metamagic] You are capable of devoting less spell energy to spells, leaving them weaker though retaining the ability to cast them more. Benefit: You may prepare certain spells you know as diminished spells, which deal minimized damage. These spells fill a spell slot one lower than normal. This metamagic feat may only be applied to spells which have damage as their primary effect (that is, spells which deal damage on a failed save). For example, a fireball prepared as a level 2 spell by a level 5 caster would deal 5 damage. Design notes: this rules out spells such as Finger of Death, because it doesn't deal damage on a failed save (only on a succesful save). If I've missed any other abusable spell, please let me know, so I can find a way to fix it.
Thiez 07-11-07, 04:53 PM	Include the [Metamagic] tag ;) I wonder if I can use other metamagic feats to make a monster out of Disintegrate.
TiwazTyrsfist 07-12-07, 06:42 PM	I Underpower Polar Ray to use a first-level spell slot. It deals 15d6 cold damage. Sure beats the 5d8 a Lesser Orb deals! I Underpower a Meteor Swarm to use a first-level spell slot. It deals 32d6 damage to the person I nail with it and everyone else probably makes a save for half (12d6) damage. I'm still using a first level spell slot to deal 32d6 damage to one person and 12d6 damage, with a possibility of 24d6 damage, to an area. I Underpower Horrid Wilting. It deals 15d6 damage with an easy save for half. I'm still dealing 7.5d6 to number of targets with a first level spell slot. I Underpower Bigby's Crushing Hand. It only lasts 17 rounds instead of the normal 20. Pretty good deal for only using a first-level spell slot! I Underpower any high level spell. My caster level is largely unaffected and I only use a first-level spell slot. Yeah, no. While my feat my be over powered, you have misread it horribly. Underpowered Polar Ray would be cast as a 7th level spell, dealing a maximimum of 13d6 damage, even if you are in an epic campaign and caster level 50 with all possible damage bonus feats. Reading comprehension for the WIN!
JulesCARV 07-12-07, 06:55 PM	I would go the other direction -- make it designed exclusively for use in conjunction with other metamagic feats. Dictate that this feat lowers spell level, but cannot lower a spell below it's original level, so it could low the cost of, say, a quickened spell, but could turn a non-metamagicked level 3 spell into a metamagicked level 2 spell.
Wrong 07-12-07, 07:22 PM	Miror image has level dependent variables. Including the number of images : 2 to 5 at third level, 3 to 6 at sixth level, and so on. It means mirror image as a first level spell (1d4 images for 1 minute) and greater mirror image as a third level spell (1d4+1 or 1d4+2 images for sorcerers, 5 or 6 minutes, immediate casting, regenerate one image per round). There's another point SRD/metamagic feats Preparing and casting a spell in such a way is harder than normal but, thanks to metamagic feats, at least it is possible.Casting an underpowered spell is a lot easier than normal spells as the effects are most often weaker than normal spells of the new level. Is this a metamagic that doesn't make a sorcerer casting as a full-round action when the underpowered effect is weaker thant the spells of that level, but still make the sorcerer casting as a full-round action when the effect is more powerful ? The new effect of an underpowered spell are either too weak to waste an action on it, or too powerful to not cast it this way. This feat project is always back and never find a solution, sorry.
TiwazTyrsfist 07-13-07, 04:36 PM	Yeah... It's just such an appealing idea, but I guess it can't really be balanced... It's just such an obvious idea though, at some point I think everyone here kicks it around. Oh well, on to more likely/possible projects.
Witch 07-13-07, 06:38 PM	I believe it can be balanced. I've revised my previous version, and it seems quite balanced at this moment: Minimize Spell [Metamagic] You are capable of devoting minimal spell energy to spells, leaving them weaker though retaining the ability to cast them more. Benefit: You may prepare certain spells you know as minimized spells, which deal minimum damage. These spells fill a spell slot two lower than normal. This metamagic feat may only be applied to spells which have a variable amount of damage as their primary effect (that is, spells which deal a number of damage dice on a failed save). For example, a fireball prepared as a level 1 spell by a level 5 caster would deal 5 damage. Special: You may not apply this metamagic feat to a spell modified with another metamagic feat that affects its damage dealt. Diminish Spell [Metamagic] You are capable of devoting less spell energy to spells, leaving them weaker though retaining the ability to cast them more. Benefit: You may prepare certain spells you know as diminished spells, which deal half damage. These spells fill a spell slot one lower than normal. This metamagic feat may only be applied to spells which have a variable amount of damage as their primary effect (that is, spells which deal a number of damage dice on a failed save). For example, a fireball prepared as a level 2 spell by a level 5 caster would deal 5d6 damage divided by two. Special: You may not apply this metamagic feat to a spell modified with another metamagic feat that affects its damage dealt.
Bob Loblaw 07-14-07, 12:38 AM	Not bad Witch, but why would I want one of those feats when I could take Reserve Feats instead? What would be the benefits?
sijigs 07-14-07, 01:35 AM	Sorry if I sound silly, but... how about using psionics? LOL Saves you spending a feat. :D
Witch 07-14-07, 07:16 AM	Not bad Witch, but why would I want one of those feats when I could take Reserve Feats instead? What would be the benefits? Well, that's a good point. But for one thing, I'm still not convinced that reserve feats aren't the result of power creep. For another, a single reserve feat is generally limited to one energy type, while these feats do not have that limitation. It may also be useful when applying them to disintegrate, or the orb spells, which have some secondary effects that are still worth it.
Bob Loblaw 07-14-07, 10:02 AM	Sorry if I sound silly, but... how about using psionics? LOL Saves you spending a feat. :D But it sacrifices the class I want to play. Maybe I don't want or am not allowed to use psionics. I may need or want a different option. Well, that's a good point. But for one thing, I'm still not convinced that reserve feats aren't the result of power creep. For another, a single reserve feat is generally limited to one energy type, while these feats do not have that limitation. It may also be useful when applying them to disintegrate, or the orb spells, which have some secondary effects that are still worth it. It looks like you get more damage, more consistently with the reserve feats but you gain versatility with the feats you posted. That's reasonable. I think there may be a place for both types of feats.