Post/Author/DateTime	Post
pippin_nl 06-04-07, 07:51 AM	Are the following feats balanced: Balanced Deflection (this feat does not stack with itself or any other deflection bonus): Prerequisite: Balance 10 ranks and Dexterity 13 For every two ranks in balance over 10 you get a +1 deflection bonus to armor class. (So +1 at 12, +2 at 14 etc...) Tumbling Dodge(this feat does not stack with itself or any other deflection bonus): Prerequisite: Dodge 10 ranks and Dexterity 13 For every two ranks in tumble over 10 you get a +1 dodge bonus to armor class. (So +1 at 12, +2 at 14 etc...) Skilled Initiative Prerequisite: Improved Initiative, Dexterity 13, Character Level 6 You may now add ranks to your initiative skill. Initiative is a cross class skill and may never be changed into a class skill.
Banatine 06-04-07, 08:23 AM	to the best of my knowledge, all feats with an ability prerequisite require an odd number, so bump the balanced deflection up to 17. I also wouldn't include modifiers, as it makes them even more powerful. One more thing, i have never seen a feat thats grants you more than +1 to your AC. I would say that they are balanced, but give them to the rogue, who has dexterity and skill points coming out the wazoo, and even dragons will have problems.
Mosyali 06-04-07, 08:57 AM	This seems pretty broken. I am unable to actually offer how to fix this, but the problem I see is how the number is a variable dependent on a skill. A monk with an 18 Dex, the feat Balanced Deflection and 8 ranks in balance gets a grand boost of +6 to his AC off of one feat. Add that to his requisite 18 dex and he is sitting at +10 to ac (+4 Dex, +6 Balanced Deflection). Let us assume by that time he has a 14 Wis and he is riding at 22 ac. Now have the same monk grab Tumbling Dodge and have 8 ranks in tumble. That totals to +6 from this feat for a total of +12 from two feats. Add that to the wisdom boost and now the monk is at 28 AC. And the number only goes up from there. If it were a monk with at level 20 with 22 points in Tumble and Balance, then he gets a minimum of +22 to AC from the feats. Add that to the 18-26 Dex he should have at level 20 and we are playing with numbers in the thirties for the price of two feats. No penalities. I think that makeing the number for skill points per AC boost steeper could possibly make it more in line for game balance. Also removing the modifiers count clause could make it fit better. Honestly though, it seems pretty broken.
CrazyOzzy 06-04-07, 09:03 AM	Hi there, I'm sorry but they all seem extremely overpowered, especially, as mentionnent before, to high Dex and Skill Points classes. Consider a Rogue at lvl 20 with let's say 30 DEX and max ranks for the sake of it : -Balanced Deflection : 23 ranks balance + 10 bonus from dex = 33/2 = + 16 AC!! -Tumbling Dodge : 23 ranks tumble + 10 bonus from dex = 33/2 = +16 AC!! -Skilled Initiative : 23 ranks initiative + 10 bonus from dex = +33 Initiative!! This is basic, without any other feats that boost skills, or synergies, etc. As you can see it is horribly broken. I took the extreme example of a lvl 20 Rogue just to show what people could achieve. To tone it down, you could as stated above, make the numbers scale alot more, like for example making ever 10 ranks give +1 or something. Good luck :)
blowfish 06-04-07, 09:18 AM	Make Initiative a cross-class. Also make the other two +1 per four ranks.
tui 06-04-07, 11:15 AM	Balanced Deflection: Prerequisite: Balance 10 ranks and Dexterity 13 For every two ranks in balance over 10 you get a +1 deflection bonus to armor class. (So +1 at 12, +2 at 14 etc...) Tumbling Dodge: Prerequisite: Dodge 10 ranks and Dexterity 13 For every two ranks in tumble over 10 you get a +1 dodge bonus to armor class. (So +1 at 12, +2 at 14 etc...) I think these are all totally broken feats. What other feats can you compare them to? Taking a look at other AC-related feats: - Dodge gives +1 against one enemy - Axeshield gives +2 dodge bonus to AC when making a full attack with a battleaxe - Combat Expertise lets you trade attack bonus for AC (max 5 points) - Cumbrous Dodge gives you +2 bonus to AC for encounter, then fatigued - Devoted Bulwark gives +1 AC when foe damages you - Efficient Defender gives +1 AC in light or medium armour, -1 armour check penalty - Mobility gives a +4 dodge bonus to AC against some AoO - Off-Hand Parry gives +2 dodge bonus to AC instead of off-hand attack - Sidestep Charge gives +4 bonus to AC against a charging foe - Twin Sword Style gives +2 armor bonus to AC against selected melee opponent when fighting with two blade - Chameleon Hide gives +2 bonus to Hide checks, +1 to AC when not moving - Focused Shield makes your shield's AC bonus increase by 1 Their bonuses are generally +1, +2 if there's a minor drawback or qualifying condition, or +4 if there are very specific and relatively uncommon qualifying conditions. These two feats allow non-epic bonuses of up to +6 AC, against all enemies in essentially all situations, and they stack with each other. I think you could perhaps fix them by requiring that you fight defensively to gain the benefit, add a prerequisite of Dodge, specify that you lose the benefits any time that you would lose your Dex bonus to AC, and maybe raise the required Dex. Skilled Initiative Prerequisite: Improved Initiative, Dexterity 13, Character Level 6 You may now add ranks to your initiative skill. Initiative is a cross class skill and may never be changed into a class skill. Again, what does this compare to? - Improved Initiative gives +4 bonus on initiative checks - Epic Superior Initiative gives +8 bonus on Initiative checks, overlaps with Improved Initiative - Battle Hardened gives +4 bonus on saves against fear, +2 bonus to initiative checks - Blooded +2 bonus on Initiative and Spot checks, ignore the effects of being shaken - Guerrilla Scout +1 bonus on initiative checks, Listen and Spot ranks cost 1 skill point - Markings of the Hunter lets you roll two initiative rolls and choose result (must be Goliath) - Quick Reconnoiter lets you make Spot and Listen as free actions; +2 bonus on initiative checks - Sea Legs gives +2 bonus on shipboard Balance and Tumble checks, +1 initiative - Thug gives +2 bonus on Initiative and +2 bonus on Appraise and Intimidate checks - Yondalla's Sense - lets you add Wis bonus on initiative checks (Halfling only) - Lunatic Insight gives +2 initiative bonus, treat all Knowledge skills as if they were trained skills Ok, so we start out with +4 for Imp Init. All the rest give +1 or +2 and some other benefit. The only exception is Markings of the Hunter, which potentially allows Goliaths a very significant bonus... and Yondalla's Sense which could give Halflings a good bonus. At 6th level, you're able to start adding ranks to an Initiative skill at cross-class cost. So if you have the ranks available, you can put 4.5 ranks in... which is already as good as the Epic feat Superior Initiative, and will only get better. I have no idea how to rework this feat to make it balanced. Are there other existing feats that I missed that compare more favorably to the ones you proposed?
RobbyPants 06-04-07, 12:07 PM	The initiative feat doesn't look too bad. It can be powerful in the right hands, but it really only helps you once per combat. Even if you have a +800 initiative like Invisible Christopher Walken, all you do is go first. You won't get extra actions, so in the long run, you don't get too much. Plus, the benifit is balanced by skill points. As for the other two feats, they are quite broken. It's a combination of two things: If you compare them to about any other AC boosting feat, they're powerful in that they grant you more than a +1 bonus. A dodge bonus is considered somewhat powerful in that it stacks with other dodge bonuses. A deflection bonus is arguably the best AC bonus in the game. It applies to both your touch and flat-footed AC. I don't know of any feat that give you a deflection bonus to AC (although there probably is one :P). The only way I could see working in the Dodge bonus, is to require dodge as a prereq as well as Dex 15+, and then give an extra +1 dodge bonus to AC. Allow the feat to be taken multiple times, but increase the Dex prereq by 2 each time. Realistically, this could just be a simple re-work of the dodge feat. It would offer a pretty strong bonus, but at the expense of a feat every time. This is comprable to Improved Natural Armor in the MM. As for the defelection bonus feat, I probably wouldn't allow it. If I did, I would only allow a +1, and not allow it to stack in any way. Realistically, you'd be better off with a ring of protection anyway.
pippin_nl 06-04-07, 12:16 PM	I think these are all totally broken feats. What other feats can you compare them to? Taking a look at other AC-related feats: - Dodge gives +1 against one enemy - Axeshield gives +2 dodge bonus to AC when making a full attack with a battleaxe - Combat Expertise lets you trade attack bonus for AC (max 5 points) - Cumbrous Dodge gives you +2 bonus to AC for encounter, then fatigued - Devoted Bulwark gives +1 AC when foe damages you - Efficient Defender gives +1 AC in light or medium armour, -1 armour check penalty - Mobility gives a +4 dodge bonus to AC against some AoO - Off-Hand Parry gives +2 dodge bonus to AC instead of off-hand attack - Sidestep Charge gives +4 bonus to AC against a charging foe - Twin Sword Style gives +2 armor bonus to AC against selected melee opponent when fighting with two blade - Chameleon Hide gives +2 bonus to Hide checks, +1 to AC when not moving - Focused Shield makes your shield's AC bonus increase by 1 Their bonuses are generally +1, +2 if there's a minor drawback or qualifying condition, or +4 if there are very specific and relatively uncommon qualifying conditions. These two feats allow non-epic bonuses of up to +6 AC, against all enemies in essentially all situations, and they stack with each other. I think you could perhaps fix them by requiring that you fight defensively to gain the benefit, add a prerequisite of Dodge, specify that you lose the benefits any time that you would lose your Dex bonus to AC, and maybe raise the required Dex. Again, what does this compare to? - Improved Initiative gives +4 bonus on initiative checks - Epic Superior Initiative gives +8 bonus on Initiative checks, overlaps with Improved Initiative - Battle Hardened gives +4 bonus on saves against fear, +2 bonus to initiative checks - Blooded +2 bonus on Initiative and Spot checks, ignore the effects of being shaken - Guerrilla Scout +1 bonus on initiative checks, Listen and Spot ranks cost 1 skill point - Markings of the Hunter lets you roll two initiative rolls and choose result (must be Goliath) - Quick Reconnoiter lets you make Spot and Listen as free actions; +2 bonus on initiative checks - Sea Legs gives +2 bonus on shipboard Balance and Tumble checks, +1 initiative - Thug gives +2 bonus on Initiative and +2 bonus on Appraise and Intimidate checks - Yondalla's Sense - lets you add Wis bonus on initiative checks (Halfling only) - Lunatic Insight gives +2 initiative bonus, treat all Knowledge skills as if they were trained skills Ok, so we start out with +4 for Imp Init. All the rest give +1 or +2 and some other benefit. The only exception is Markings of the Hunter, which potentially allows Goliaths a very significant bonus... and Yondalla's Sense which could give Halflings a good bonus. At 6th level, you're able to start adding ranks to an Initiative skill at cross-class cost. So if you have the ranks available, you can put 4.5 ranks in... which is already as good as the Epic feat Superior Initiative, and will only get better. I have no idea how to rework this feat to make it balanced. Are there other existing feats that I missed that compare more favorably to the ones you proposed? Probably not, I was comparing them to magical items and forgot that dodge bonuses do stack. The feat was supposed to be non-stackable. Also I am not too worried about something that only gets broken at epic levels.
tui 06-04-07, 04:02 PM	Also I am not too worried about something that only gets broken at epic levels. I don't understand what you mean by that... I was comparing Skilled Initiative to an epic feat to show that it was already better than that epic feat pre-epic (6th level). Or are you referring to the AC feats where you don't get the full +6 until 20th level (practically epic)? I think it's complicated enough creating a balanced magic item that duplicates the ability of a feat. And I think it is nigh impossible to reverse that and make a feat to duplicate a magic item. Also, even if the two feats don't stack with other dodge/deflection bonuses, they do stack with each other as they are different types... which could get pretty crazy.
tomas_q 06-04-07, 04:58 PM	i didn't know Dodge and Iniciative could be taken as skills... i just knew them as the PHB describes them. How do these skills work?:confused:
pippin_nl 06-04-07, 06:16 PM	I don't understand what you mean by that... I was comparing Skilled Initiative to an epic feat to show that it was already better than that epic feat pre-epic (6th level). Or are you referring to the AC feats where you don't get the full +6 until 20th level (practically epic)? I think it's complicated enough creating a balanced magic item that duplicates the ability of a feat. And I think it is nigh impossible to reverse that and make a feat to duplicate a magic item. Also, even if the two feats don't stack with other dodge/deflection bonuses, they do stack with each other as they are different types... which could get pretty crazy. Well, one of the reasons I am looking for something like this, is that I like to create NPC's (humans) who have chosen to use no magical protections, but are still equal (or about) to those that do. (I dislike the vow of poverty).
itwasntme 06-04-07, 06:24 PM	Are the following feats balanced: Balanced Deflection (this feat does not stack with itself or any other deflection bonus): Prerequisite: Balance 10 ranks and Dexterity 13 For every two ranks in balance over 10 you get a +1 deflection bonus to armor class. (So +1 at 12, +2 at 14 etc...) Tumbling Dodge(this feat does not stack with itself or any other deflection bonus): Prerequisite: Dodge 10 ranks and Dexterity 13 For every two ranks in tumble over 10 you get a +1 dodge bonus to armor class. (So +1 at 12, +2 at 14 etc...) Skilled Initiative Prerequisite: Improved Initiative, Dexterity 13, Character Level 6 You may now add ranks to your initiative skill. Initiative is a cross class skill and may never be changed into a class skill. ie in other words when a character is level 20 for the Defliction bonus he gets +6 to his AC Which he shouldnt have a Ring of protection +6 intell Epic level ie Level 21+ Same with the Dodge modifier Skilled Initiative ... So Improve Initiative plus my Dex plus all my skill points into it meaning allso my Dex as well so level 6 character has +9 from Rank has 16 dex +3 into the rank and Improve initive +4 and +3 from Dex Again meaning he gets +19 to his initive ? ... Well i think we know whos going to go first all the damn time So the answer to your question All the above feats need to be changed at least a little bit the only thing that give higher then +1 Dodge is HARD To come by if they even excist in your game (Yes they excist but your going to be clouse to level 12 before you get a +2 Dodge bonus) so no no no These feats are not fixed at all there not super broken but its enough to state that there broken ...
itwasntme 06-04-07, 06:28 PM	i didn't know Dodge and Iniciative could be taken as skills... i just knew them as the PHB describes them. How do these skills work?:confused: they dont there not allowed in normol games Allso Dear OP If your looking to make a normol Human who can be as good as Humans who are useing Items then just make a Monk
tui 06-05-07, 10:51 AM	Well, one of the reasons I am looking for something like this, is that I like to create NPC's (humans) who have chosen to use no magical protections, but are still equal (or about) to those that do. (I dislike the vow of poverty). Hmm... in that regard they seem a little less broken. A prerequisite then should be something that prevents them from functioning when using magical protection.. Perhaps without the strictness of VoP, but something that would mechanically keep people from stacking them on top of complementary magic items or spells. Also, perhaps they should require that you wear light or no armor for them to work. I do think itwasntme has a point: there is already an existing mechanic for this sort of thing in the Monk and Ninja classes.
Knightblde 06-05-07, 11:00 AM	Just use the defense bonus rules from Unearthed Arcana. It is an Armor Bonus based on level that does not stack with armor. They will have a better AC and you don't have to use magic. And why would it make ANY sense that a character that isn't using magic, be a powerful as one that is?
pippin_nl 06-05-07, 01:40 PM	Just use the defense bonus rules from Unearthed Arcana. It is an Armor Bonus based on level that does not stack with armor. They will have a better AC and you don't have to use magic. And why would it make ANY sense that a character that isn't using magic, be a powerful as one that is? I do not wish to use the rules for everyone and it should not be instead of armor but instead of magic. The reason for magic not being all powerful is that in the setting I play, skill should beat magical items for the truly talented people.
pippin_nl 06-05-07, 01:54 PM	Suppose I would change it to: Balanced Deflection (this feat does not stack with any other deflection bonus): Prerequisite: Dexterity 13 Balance 6 ranks: +1 deflection and training cost 2000 gold Balance 9 ranks: +2 deflection and training cost 8000 gold Balance 12 ranks: +3 deflection and training cost 18000 gold Balance 15 ranks: +4 deflection and training cost 32000 gold Balance 18 ranks: +5 deflection and training cost 50000 gold
RobbyPants 06-05-07, 02:09 PM	So the idea is to grant you a slotless item? I'm just not sure if I like that one mechanically. Realistically, I don't know that a feat should grant you a defelction bonus to AC, and certainly not one based off of the Balance skill. That seems more like a prereq for a dodge bonus, than anything. Typically, deflection bonuses are more based off of force protection. I guess I would recommend against having such a feat.
Knightblde 06-05-07, 04:15 PM	I do not wish to use the rules for everyone and it should not be instead of armor but instead of magic. The reason for magic not being all powerful is that in the setting I play, skill should beat magical items for the truly talented people. That is the point of the Defense rules from the Unearthed Arcana. The Defense AC goes up with level, like the Base attack bonus. The thought behind it is that the base 10 for AC shows some skill at defending yourself. The additional AC you get from Defense shows you getting better at that defense rather than staying the same for the entire game. Each class gets a different bonus. It is not the same for all of them. What you are doing, now think about this clearly, is giving rogues and other classes with these skills as class skills an advantage that a fighter cannot get. Does it make sense in any world that a fighter be denied the ability to fight/defend as well as any other class? You limit it to over 10 ranks. A fighter can't get 12 ranks in balance until level 21. In fact, Bard, Monk and Rogues are the only ones that can do it. There might be some non core feats that make balance a class skill, I do not know, but from the core, you just made these three classes WAY stronger. And to make it even worse, the same three classes are the only ones that get Tumble, from the core books. This is a MAJOR work around the low/no armor that these folks are able to get. Doesn't that make it incredibley strong? Not to mention the fact that they will also gain the benifts of the skills as written?
pippin_nl 06-05-07, 05:29 PM	That is the point of the Defense rules from the Unearthed Arcana. The Defense AC goes up with level, like the Base attack bonus. The thought behind it is that the base 10 for AC shows some skill at defending yourself. The additional AC you get from Defense shows you getting better at that defense rather than staying the same for the entire game. Each class gets a different bonus. It is not the same for all of them. What you are doing, now think about this clearly, is giving rogues and other classes with these skills as class skills an advantage that a fighter cannot get. Does it make sense in any world that a fighter be denied the ability to fight/defend as well as any other class? You limit it to over 10 ranks. A fighter can't get 12 ranks in balance until level 21. In fact, Bard, Monk and Rogues are the only ones that can do it. There might be some non core feats that make balance a class skill, I do not know, but from the core, you just made these three classes WAY stronger. And to make it even worse, the same three classes are the only ones that get Tumble, from the core books. This is a MAJOR work around the low/no armor that these folks are able to get. Doesn't that make it incredibley strong? Not to mention the fact that they will also gain the benifts of the skills as written? You have a point there. I will think about it some more...