New Fighter Feats. [Archive] - Wizards Community

New Fighter Feats. [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Zardnaar
08-25-07, 08:33 PM Thought I would tweak some PrC abilities into generic fighter feats. Also errated Dodge which I feel is a very weak feat.

Dodge (General)
You are adept at dodging blows.
Prequisite: Dex 13.
Benefit: You gain a +1 dodge bonus to your armor class.
A condition that makes you lose you Dexterity bonus to Armor Class (if any) also makes you lose your dodge bonus.
Special: A fighter may select dodge as a bonus feat.

Improved Weapon Finesse (General)
Requirements: Weapon Finesse
Benefit: You may add your dexterity bonus to any damage rolls (in addition to your strength bonus) you inflict with a light weapon or any other weapon that can be used with Weapon Finesse. Creatures immune to critical hits or to sneak attacks/skirmish are immune to Improved Weapon Finesse.
Special: A fighter may select Improved Weapon Finesse as a bonus Fighter feat.

Insightful Strike (General)
You know how to strike a foe where it hurts.
Requirements:BAB +3
Benefit: You may add your intelligence bonus to any damage rolls (in addition to your strength bonus) you inflict with a light weapon or any other weapon that can be used with Weapon Finesse. Creatures immune to critical hits or to sneak attacks/skirmish are immune to Insightful Strike.
Special: A fighter may select Insightful Strike as a bonus Fighter feat.
NobodyRemembersThis
08-26-07, 11:20 AM I'd assign a BAB and/or fighter level requirement to Improved Weapon Finesse, and I'd have Combat Expertise as a requirement for insightful strike.
Kouk
08-26-07, 12:45 PM I don't think the Insightful Strike one is good.
Consider Wizards and Touch spells.
Maybe saying "with a melee weapon" would be a better idea.
I also like the idea of Combat Expertise as a prerequisite.

I am also reluctant about adding Dex bonus to STR bonus to figure bonus damage. This seems like a Finesse combatant could then do more damage than a STR combatant. Replacing seems more in line with Weapon Finesse.
Zardnaar
08-26-07, 04:13 PM I don't think the Insightful Strike one is good.
Consider Wizards and Touch spells.
Maybe saying "with a melee weapon" would be a better idea.
I also like the idea of Combat Expertise as a prerequisite.

I am also reluctant about adding Dex bonus to STR bonus to figure bonus damage. This seems like a Finesse combatant could then do more damage than a STR combatant. Replacing seems more in line with Weapon Finesse.

Well the damage doesn't apply to creatures immune to critocal hits. You also have to spend multiple feats to do it and most damage dealing builds use 2 handed weapons and power attack. Perhaps I should add with a melee weapon.
tarkin
08-27-07, 10:54 AM <Lesson on writing D20 game rules>

FEATS

1. Some feats are weaker than others.

2. THIS WAS DONE ON PURPOSE. The game designers are not morons, they know a weak feat when they see it.

3. If you don't like a feat don't take it.

4. The main reason to make a weak feat is to use it as a pre-req for a POWERFULL ability. This allows the game designers to create a powerfull ability, like say Spring Attack and still let people take it as a feat, by forcing them to pay for it by wasting a feat to get something crappy.

5. The proper way to deal with this is to NOT change an existing feat, but instead to create another SIMILAR feat.

Example: Improved Toughness. Note that it does NOT have Toughness as a pre-req. It was created to satisfy the people that wanted a form of toughness that was not a sucky feat. This still lets people that want to get the Prestige Class Dwarven Defender take the old, sucky Toughness feat.

6. If you don't believe in points 1-4 - so what? You can still do my point 5 (make your own feats) and just ignore the existing feats that OTHER people created. You wouldn't take another person's book, change the ending and claim you wrote it - why would you modify some one elses's feat?

The ONLY reason to 'upgrade' the existing feats is because you DO believe in my points 1-4 but are trying to TRICK YOUR DM into letting you take a powerfull ability such as Spring Attack without paying the full cost for it.

---------------------------------------

Prestige Class Abilities

1. When people make a Prestige Class, their are several things they can do. One of which is to make an 'ability', another is to create a new feat and have the Prestige Class ability get it for free. Often they get it without having to meet the pre-reqs of the feat.

2. The Authors are not stupid. They know point 1. When they choose to make a Prestige Class ability instead of a new feat that the Prestige class gets, they do it on purpose. They do it because the author of the Prestige Class ability considers it to be signifcantly more powerfull than a feat.

3. My experience is that a Prestige Class ability is generally worth 3 feats. A few weak ones can be fairly converted into 2 feats. If you can not find a way to easily cut an abiility into 2 or 3 fair feats, you remember what I just taught you about feats and make 2 sucky feats that area pre-req for the third feat that completely duplicates the prestige class ability.

</End Lesson>

You are correct, Dodge is a sucky feat. That is not a reason to change it.
I would allow your Dodge as "Improved Doge" It is a fair feat.

Your other two feats can fairly be split into three feats each:
.

Feat 1: Do not apply your Strength penalty when doing Melee damage.

Feat 2: (Pre Req of feat 1). Add your Dex (or Int) instead of your Strength.

Feat 3: (Pre req of feat 1 and 2) Add both your Strength bonus and your Dex Bonus (or Int) to damage.

Feat 2 and three would have two different versions, but feat 1 would be the same. If you took all 5 feats, you would get your Strength + Dex + Int.

Yeah, feat 1 is a really sucky feat, particularly if you want feat 3. That is what makes it fair.
wonlee76
08-27-07, 11:29 AM To repeat Tarkin's line of though (without the adversarial tone to it), changing prestige class abilities or even class abilities into feats requires some deep thought and balancing.

Some folks take prestige classes or certain classes because of unique abilities associated with that class or prestige class. In the case of a prestige class, to get that "ability" they need to spend feats, skill points, etc. to meet the pre-reqs and on top of that invest a certain number of levels.

For example:
Your improved weapon finesse idea is identical to the Champion of Correllon Lantheran's (sp?) 3rd level ability. A fighter could get the ability at level 1. An elf aiming for Champion of Correllon would be able to get this ability at level 10 by comparison while spending 3 feats (Mounted Combat, Combat Expertise, Weapon Focus or exotic weapon proficiency I think) m in order to jump into that prestige class.

My first suggestion is put some hefty feat pre-reqs to are comparable to the feats required to jump into a prestige class if you're going to simply copy a prestige class ability and call it a feat.

In the case of your Improved Weapon Finesse feat, I would suggest at least 3 feats as a pre-req to match up with the feat pre-reqs of the CoCL prestige class. Maybe even the same exact feats that are required of the CoCL.

My second suggestion is put pre-reqs on the feat so that the feat does not become available sooner than when a prestige class could gain access to the feat.

So looking at Improved Weapon Finesse, I would just put an ad hoc 12 levels of fighter as a pre-req to the feat. That way a fighter could get this ability but it will be after a CoCL could get the ability.

My third suggestion is to look at the epic feats to make sure that the feat you're proposing is not stronger than an epic feat (Insightful strike is an epic feat in CW that uses Int to Damage instead of Str to damage). Now whether you think the epic feat should be epic is up to you or the DM to determine but its a starting point in evaluating how balanced a feat is.
Zardnaar
08-27-07, 04:30 PM BTW I am the DM. To be honest my players weren't overly impressed with my errated dodge and not many PrCs require it now and spring attack isn't that good anyway.

In context I've tweaked the Fighter class in y game since everyone thinks it "sucks" with some justification. Essentially they are the same as the PHB except they get 4/skill points a level and have a better skill list. The Swashbuckler also has some interesting abilities but is very weak so I merged it with the fighter class and are seeing how to convert some of its abilities to normal feats.

I don't use all PrCs such as the Champion of Corelion Larethian but some of them have interesting abilities such as dexterity to damage. Also you kinda have to be an Elf to get that PrC and I hate most elven PrCs as they tend to be better than generic ones.

New feats being designed for fighters are alot more powerful than the PHB ones- see the Complete Warrior and Players Handbook 2. Its well known feats don't scale very well when compared to spells. I'm also trying to power up the other various fighting forms apart from Two Handed Weapon style. Any barbarian/fighter type with a greatsword and powerattack can probably deal more damage than a finesse type PC who has to spend multiple feats to even come close and is still weaker.

I lke the feedback so far anyway and I will be tweaking the feats. I'm thinking of putting a BAB requirement on improved weaon finesse (+8?) and I'm not to sure about insightful strike. Several 3.0 epic feats have since been downgraded to non epic feats BTW such as that 2 weapon rend feat. Personally I have no problem with a finesse type swordsman dealing more damage (in certain situations) than a two handed weapon fighter if they have spent multiple feats to do so. One should also remember that the THW fighter type has probably spent his feats on things like Cleave, Weapon Focus, Weapon Specialization and has probably qualified for Weapon Mastery as well for about the same amount of feats as the weapon finesse fighter. Its true that the weapon finesse fighters AC will be higher and can use a shield but TWF can just get an animated shield at higher level anyway.
wonlee76
08-27-07, 05:41 PM Well, putting BAB pre-reqs to powerful feats don't really solve the "fighter sucks" mentality. Simply put, if you don't put a meaningful "Fighter Level" pre-req to a feat, any non-fighter could eventually take the feat.

Putting a +8 BAB pre-req to your proposed Improved Weapon Finesse feat simply makes it a "must have" feat for level 12 finesse rogue types. It makes the rogue more powerful. Putting a Level 8 Fighter pre-req instead of a +8 BAB pre-req makes it a "real" fighter feat that helps the fighter and not other classes (or at least requires hefty multi-classing in fighter to gain the feat).
ragoftag
08-28-07, 06:56 PM I found a lot of fighter feat upgrades around these boards and am tooling up other 'sucky' feats that should scale and are easily done. Someone grouped them and I'm adding to give focused players an incentive. They include: AGILITY FEATS, ARCHERY FEATS, ARMORY FEATS, COMMAND FEATS, MOUNTED FEATS, MURDER FEATS, POWER FEATS, SPIRIT FEATS, STEALTH FEATS, TALENT FEATS, UNARMED FEATS, VITALITY FEATS, WEAPONRY FEATS. Oddly enough, most feats fit into one or more without effort.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Zardnaar 08-25-07, 08:33 PM	Thought I would tweak some PrC abilities into generic fighter feats. Also errated Dodge which I feel is a very weak feat. Dodge (General) You are adept at dodging blows. Prequisite: Dex 13. Benefit: You gain a +1 dodge bonus to your armor class. A condition that makes you lose you Dexterity bonus to Armor Class (if any) also makes you lose your dodge bonus. Special: A fighter may select dodge as a bonus feat. Improved Weapon Finesse (General) Requirements: Weapon Finesse Benefit: You may add your dexterity bonus to any damage rolls (in addition to your strength bonus) you inflict with a light weapon or any other weapon that can be used with Weapon Finesse. Creatures immune to critical hits or to sneak attacks/skirmish are immune to Improved Weapon Finesse. Special: A fighter may select Improved Weapon Finesse as a bonus Fighter feat. Insightful Strike (General) You know how to strike a foe where it hurts. Requirements:BAB +3 Benefit: You may add your intelligence bonus to any damage rolls (in addition to your strength bonus) you inflict with a light weapon or any other weapon that can be used with Weapon Finesse. Creatures immune to critical hits or to sneak attacks/skirmish are immune to Insightful Strike. Special: A fighter may select Insightful Strike as a bonus Fighter feat.
NobodyRemembersThis 08-26-07, 11:20 AM	I'd assign a BAB and/or fighter level requirement to Improved Weapon Finesse, and I'd have Combat Expertise as a requirement for insightful strike.
Kouk 08-26-07, 12:45 PM	I don't think the Insightful Strike one is good. Consider Wizards and Touch spells. Maybe saying "with a melee weapon" would be a better idea. I also like the idea of Combat Expertise as a prerequisite. I am also reluctant about adding Dex bonus to STR bonus to figure bonus damage. This seems like a Finesse combatant could then do more damage than a STR combatant. Replacing seems more in line with Weapon Finesse.
Zardnaar 08-26-07, 04:13 PM	I don't think the Insightful Strike one is good. Consider Wizards and Touch spells. Maybe saying "with a melee weapon" would be a better idea. I also like the idea of Combat Expertise as a prerequisite. I am also reluctant about adding Dex bonus to STR bonus to figure bonus damage. This seems like a Finesse combatant could then do more damage than a STR combatant. Replacing seems more in line with Weapon Finesse. Well the damage doesn't apply to creatures immune to critocal hits. You also have to spend multiple feats to do it and most damage dealing builds use 2 handed weapons and power attack. Perhaps I should add with a melee weapon.
tarkin 08-27-07, 10:54 AM	<Lesson on writing D20 game rules> FEATS 1. Some feats are weaker than others. 2. THIS WAS DONE ON PURPOSE. The game designers are not morons, they know a weak feat when they see it. 3. If you don't like a feat don't take it. 4. The main reason to make a weak feat is to use it as a pre-req for a POWERFULL ability. This allows the game designers to create a powerfull ability, like say Spring Attack and still let people take it as a feat, by forcing them to pay for it by wasting a feat to get something crappy. 5. The proper way to deal with this is to NOT change an existing feat, but instead to create another SIMILAR feat. Example: Improved Toughness. Note that it does NOT have Toughness as a pre-req. It was created to satisfy the people that wanted a form of toughness that was not a sucky feat. This still lets people that want to get the Prestige Class Dwarven Defender take the old, sucky Toughness feat. 6. If you don't believe in points 1-4 - so what? You can still do my point 5 (make your own feats) and just ignore the existing feats that OTHER people created. You wouldn't take another person's book, change the ending and claim you wrote it - why would you modify some one elses's feat? The ONLY reason to 'upgrade' the existing feats is because you DO believe in my points 1-4 but are trying to TRICK YOUR DM into letting you take a powerfull ability such as Spring Attack without paying the full cost for it. --------------------------------------- Prestige Class Abilities 1. When people make a Prestige Class, their are several things they can do. One of which is to make an 'ability', another is to create a new feat and have the Prestige Class ability get it for free. Often they get it without having to meet the pre-reqs of the feat. 2. The Authors are not stupid. They know point 1. When they choose to make a Prestige Class ability instead of a new feat that the Prestige class gets, they do it on purpose. They do it because the author of the Prestige Class ability considers it to be signifcantly more powerfull than a feat. 3. My experience is that a Prestige Class ability is generally worth 3 feats. A few weak ones can be fairly converted into 2 feats. If you can not find a way to easily cut an abiility into 2 or 3 fair feats, you remember what I just taught you about feats and make 2 sucky feats that area pre-req for the third feat that completely duplicates the prestige class ability. </End Lesson> You are correct, Dodge is a sucky feat. That is not a reason to change it. I would allow your Dodge as "Improved Doge" It is a fair feat. Your other two feats can fairly be split into three feats each: . Feat 1: Do not apply your Strength penalty when doing Melee damage. Feat 2: (Pre Req of feat 1). Add your Dex (or Int) instead of your Strength. Feat 3: (Pre req of feat 1 and 2) Add both your Strength bonus and your Dex Bonus (or Int) to damage. Feat 2 and three would have two different versions, but feat 1 would be the same. If you took all 5 feats, you would get your Strength + Dex + Int. Yeah, feat 1 is a really sucky feat, particularly if you want feat 3. That is what makes it fair.
wonlee76 08-27-07, 11:29 AM	To repeat Tarkin's line of though (without the adversarial tone to it), changing prestige class abilities or even class abilities into feats requires some deep thought and balancing. Some folks take prestige classes or certain classes because of unique abilities associated with that class or prestige class. In the case of a prestige class, to get that "ability" they need to spend feats, skill points, etc. to meet the pre-reqs and on top of that invest a certain number of levels. For example: Your improved weapon finesse idea is identical to the Champion of Correllon Lantheran's (sp?) 3rd level ability. A fighter could get the ability at level 1. An elf aiming for Champion of Correllon would be able to get this ability at level 10 by comparison while spending 3 feats (Mounted Combat, Combat Expertise, Weapon Focus or exotic weapon proficiency I think) m in order to jump into that prestige class. My first suggestion is put some hefty feat pre-reqs to are comparable to the feats required to jump into a prestige class if you're going to simply copy a prestige class ability and call it a feat. In the case of your Improved Weapon Finesse feat, I would suggest at least 3 feats as a pre-req to match up with the feat pre-reqs of the CoCL prestige class. Maybe even the same exact feats that are required of the CoCL. My second suggestion is put pre-reqs on the feat so that the feat does not become available sooner than when a prestige class could gain access to the feat. So looking at Improved Weapon Finesse, I would just put an ad hoc 12 levels of fighter as a pre-req to the feat. That way a fighter could get this ability but it will be after a CoCL could get the ability. My third suggestion is to look at the epic feats to make sure that the feat you're proposing is not stronger than an epic feat (Insightful strike is an epic feat in CW that uses Int to Damage instead of Str to damage). Now whether you think the epic feat should be epic is up to you or the DM to determine but its a starting point in evaluating how balanced a feat is.
Zardnaar 08-27-07, 04:30 PM	BTW I am the DM. To be honest my players weren't overly impressed with my errated dodge and not many PrCs require it now and spring attack isn't that good anyway. In context I've tweaked the Fighter class in y game since everyone thinks it "sucks" with some justification. Essentially they are the same as the PHB except they get 4/skill points a level and have a better skill list. The Swashbuckler also has some interesting abilities but is very weak so I merged it with the fighter class and are seeing how to convert some of its abilities to normal feats. I don't use all PrCs such as the Champion of Corelion Larethian but some of them have interesting abilities such as dexterity to damage. Also you kinda have to be an Elf to get that PrC and I hate most elven PrCs as they tend to be better than generic ones. New feats being designed for fighters are alot more powerful than the PHB ones- see the Complete Warrior and Players Handbook 2. Its well known feats don't scale very well when compared to spells. I'm also trying to power up the other various fighting forms apart from Two Handed Weapon style. Any barbarian/fighter type with a greatsword and powerattack can probably deal more damage than a finesse type PC who has to spend multiple feats to even come close and is still weaker. I lke the feedback so far anyway and I will be tweaking the feats. I'm thinking of putting a BAB requirement on improved weaon finesse (+8?) and I'm not to sure about insightful strike. Several 3.0 epic feats have since been downgraded to non epic feats BTW such as that 2 weapon rend feat. Personally I have no problem with a finesse type swordsman dealing more damage (in certain situations) than a two handed weapon fighter if they have spent multiple feats to do so. One should also remember that the THW fighter type has probably spent his feats on things like Cleave, Weapon Focus, Weapon Specialization and has probably qualified for Weapon Mastery as well for about the same amount of feats as the weapon finesse fighter. Its true that the weapon finesse fighters AC will be higher and can use a shield but TWF can just get an animated shield at higher level anyway.
wonlee76 08-27-07, 05:41 PM	Well, putting BAB pre-reqs to powerful feats don't really solve the "fighter sucks" mentality. Simply put, if you don't put a meaningful "Fighter Level" pre-req to a feat, any non-fighter could eventually take the feat. Putting a +8 BAB pre-req to your proposed Improved Weapon Finesse feat simply makes it a "must have" feat for level 12 finesse rogue types. It makes the rogue more powerful. Putting a Level 8 Fighter pre-req instead of a +8 BAB pre-req makes it a "real" fighter feat that helps the fighter and not other classes (or at least requires hefty multi-classing in fighter to gain the feat).
ragoftag 08-28-07, 06:56 PM	I found a lot of fighter feat upgrades around these boards and am tooling up other 'sucky' feats that should scale and are easily done. Someone grouped them and I'm adding to give focused players an incentive. They include: AGILITY FEATS, ARCHERY FEATS, ARMORY FEATS, COMMAND FEATS, MOUNTED FEATS, MURDER FEATS, POWER FEATS, SPIRIT FEATS, STEALTH FEATS, TALENT FEATS, UNARMED FEATS, VITALITY FEATS, WEAPONRY FEATS. Oddly enough, most feats fit into one or more without effort.