New Skill: Muscle [Archive] - Wizards Community

New Skill: Muscle [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
simonbjerg
08-29-07, 03:56 PM Muscle: I would really like a strength default skill. Game mechanic vise I think it fills a gap. This skill would bring back “bend bars”, “break chains” and “open doors” to the game. The skill would also increase the max lift and carrying capacity of the character. This way a 10th level fighter would be able to kick in all mundane doors in one try, lift gates of the ground while his friends climb under, and carry his incapacitated allies to safety. The muscle skill would add flavour to fighter types the game. Maybe this skill also would grant extra damage against unanimated objects?
tarkin
08-29-07, 04:10 PM There ARE still bend bars rules.

You do realize you can do straight ability checks?

For Bend Bars, it is a straight Strength Check. That is what the Break DC next to things like Doors.

What you seem to be asking is a general skill to add to any strength checks. That does not seem reasonable to me, but I may be mistaken.

Stat out a couple of the things you want to be able to do with it, giving DC's for each of the things you want to do.

P.S. I would not stat out Bend Bards, they already have Break DC's which are calculated without having any 'skill ranks' to add to them.
Kouk
08-29-07, 06:24 PM The system was intentionally simplified to make Bending Bars and Lift Gate and such to just be plain STR checks.

How would you get better at having muscles? You can make a slight argument for "I know how my body works and how to move for the best leverage" but not much. Otherwise, just increasing your STR score will... make you stronger.

If you want to introduce another skill into the game, which will likely not see much of any use, you are free to.

I think there is a feat or two out there that improves your ability to break things.

There was also a Fighter variant from the Wizards website whereby Fighters gain a bonus to STR checks for breaking things, or Balance checks or such every couple of levels.
RobbyPants
08-30-07, 02:03 PM Yeah, if this were a skill, suddenly a 1st level character with 4 ranks and a 10 Str would be just as good at breaking things as a character with 0 ranks and an 18 Str.

Every level you add (assuming you have maxed ranks) is the equivalent of getting +2 Str. I refuse to believe that you could account for this much difference with skill alone. An average Str person with 10 ranks is now as strong as someone with a 30 Str!
Mark_Aged
08-30-07, 02:14 PM Actually, an average Str person with 10 ranks in Muscle would be as strong as someone with 32 or 33 with no ranks in Muscle. Remember, the average person has above average scores. And you could make it apply like, 5 ranks = +1 to Str modifier. It's might take some time to make it work, but it's a nice idea.
tarkin
08-30-07, 02:20 PM The average person has average scores, (unless you live in Lake Wobegone)

The average PLAYER CHARACTER has above average scores.

Here is a question for you.

Do you think that a 9th level Mage, with a strength of 8, but who maxed out "muscel" should be able to break down doors as well as someone with a strength of 14?

I don't.

The Mage wants to break down doors, he needs to boost his strenght. Maybe take a feat or two to help him out.

Skills looks like it is the wrong place to do this.
Istaran
08-30-07, 02:44 PM Perhaps a balanced way to get some skill involved?

Skill - Applied Force (Int)
When making a str check to break down a door, bend bars, etc. you can use your knowledge of materials and construction to better focus your efforts.
The time required to make the check increases to a full round action if it was a standard action or less; otherwise it increases by one round. Make a Applied Force skill check against the DC of the strength check you wish to make. If you succeed, you get a +2 circumstance bonus on the strength check.
If you use this skill while performing an Aid Another on a str check made by another character and you beat the DC by at least 5 you provide +4 to the other character's str check instead of only +2. If more than one character is attempting an Aid Another on the same str check, only one of them may attempt an Applied Force skill check to improve the result.
tafkamhokie
08-30-07, 10:27 PM Personally, I like the idea and have considered doing something similar myself.

If you think about breaking an object or even resisting being tripped, proper technique can absolutely trump brute force. It should definitely be possible to put ranks in lifting, pushing, or breaking things.

I disagree, however, that it would have any effect on carrying capacity. This skill is all about a burst of force with the proper leverage, not carrying a heavier load over time.

But one absolutely key mechanic would be to limit the heck out of who can put how many ranks in it. Otherwise you will have the 8 Str tenth level wizard busting out of chains just because they have a high INT and decided to sink some of their spare skill points into this.

Personally, I would call it a cross-class skill for fighters and monks and a prohibited skill for anyone else. Fighters and monks are all about martial study, so it makes sense that they have a better understanding of leverage and biomechanics than anyone else. Barbarians, while certainly strong, simply rely on brute force and not the tactical application of force. No other class has the pure martial aptitude to put ranks in this skill.

Limit it that way, and this could certainly work. Plus, if nothing else, it throws the much maligned Fighter a bone and gives them something to spend their paltry skill points on that might be useful.
zorgling25
08-31-07, 12:38 AM If you think about breaking an object or even resisting being tripped, proper technique can absolutely trump brute force. It should definitely be possible to put ranks in lifting, pushing, or breaking things.

You could make it a skill trick, that's based around ranks in Knowledge: Architecture and Engineering.
imakuni67
08-31-07, 01:15 AM You could make it a skill trick, that's based around ranks in Knowledge: Architecture and Engineering.

You could make 5 ranks in Knowledge: Architecture and Engineering give a +2 synergy bonus to strength checks to break/bend/snap things. That skill isn't very useful for much else!
Someone
08-31-07, 01:11 PM This might be better off as a feat- call it "Attribute Focus (Strength)" or something. A +1 or 2 to all strength checks (including opposed checks like bull rush or trip) would be useful without being too powerful.
Istaran
08-31-07, 02:12 PM Personally, I would call it a cross-class skill for fighters and monks and a prohibited skill for anyone else. Fighters and monks are all about martial study, so it makes sense that they have a better understanding of leverage and biomechanics than anyone else. Barbarians, while certainly strong, simply rely on brute force and not the tactical application of force. No other class has the pure martial aptitude to put ranks in this skill.

You are somehow of the opinion that only fighters and monks have the mental capabilities to learn this stuff? There is a reason they stopped prohibiting skills to classes; it's silly. Anyone who takes the time to learn can learn this stuff. Fighters and monks are certainly more appropriate classes to get it as class skills than most others though.

Also, as mentioned above, I don't think it is wise to have it be a straight roll to replace the traditional str check. Either people will be doing things way out of proportion with thier strength, or the DCs will have to be scaled up to where normal brute force is no longer given its due. That's why I recommended making it a skill check to get a +2 on the str check - using leverage better you give yourself a mechanical advantage, but someone much stronger is still going to have an easier time.
Istaran
08-31-07, 02:13 PM This might be better off as a feat- call it "Attribute Focus (Strength)" or something. A +1 or 2 to all strength checks (including opposed checks like bull rush or trip) would be useful without being too powerful.

Sounds like something that will be shunned for being too reasonable. Everyone will agree it's balanced and then choose not to take it because feats are too precious of a commodity.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
simonbjerg 08-29-07, 03:56 PM	Muscle: I would really like a strength default skill. Game mechanic vise I think it fills a gap. This skill would bring back “bend bars”, “break chains” and “open doors” to the game. The skill would also increase the max lift and carrying capacity of the character. This way a 10th level fighter would be able to kick in all mundane doors in one try, lift gates of the ground while his friends climb under, and carry his incapacitated allies to safety. The muscle skill would add flavour to fighter types the game. Maybe this skill also would grant extra damage against unanimated objects?
tarkin 08-29-07, 04:10 PM	There ARE still bend bars rules. You do realize you can do straight ability checks? For Bend Bars, it is a straight Strength Check. That is what the Break DC next to things like Doors. What you seem to be asking is a general skill to add to any strength checks. That does not seem reasonable to me, but I may be mistaken. Stat out a couple of the things you want to be able to do with it, giving DC's for each of the things you want to do. P.S. I would not stat out Bend Bards, they already have Break DC's which are calculated without having any 'skill ranks' to add to them.
Kouk 08-29-07, 06:24 PM	The system was intentionally simplified to make Bending Bars and Lift Gate and such to just be plain STR checks. How would you get better at having muscles? You can make a slight argument for "I know how my body works and how to move for the best leverage" but not much. Otherwise, just increasing your STR score will... make you stronger. If you want to introduce another skill into the game, which will likely not see much of any use, you are free to. I think there is a feat or two out there that improves your ability to break things. There was also a Fighter variant from the Wizards website whereby Fighters gain a bonus to STR checks for breaking things, or Balance checks or such every couple of levels.
RobbyPants 08-30-07, 02:03 PM	Yeah, if this were a skill, suddenly a 1st level character with 4 ranks and a 10 Str would be just as good at breaking things as a character with 0 ranks and an 18 Str. Every level you add (assuming you have maxed ranks) is the equivalent of getting +2 Str. I refuse to believe that you could account for this much difference with skill alone. An average Str person with 10 ranks is now as strong as someone with a 30 Str!
Mark_Aged 08-30-07, 02:14 PM	Actually, an average Str person with 10 ranks in Muscle would be as strong as someone with 32 or 33 with no ranks in Muscle. Remember, the average person has above average scores. And you could make it apply like, 5 ranks = +1 to Str modifier. It's might take some time to make it work, but it's a nice idea.
tarkin 08-30-07, 02:20 PM	The average person has average scores, (unless you live in Lake Wobegone) The average PLAYER CHARACTER has above average scores. Here is a question for you. Do you think that a 9th level Mage, with a strength of 8, but who maxed out "muscel" should be able to break down doors as well as someone with a strength of 14? I don't. The Mage wants to break down doors, he needs to boost his strenght. Maybe take a feat or two to help him out. Skills looks like it is the wrong place to do this.
Istaran 08-30-07, 02:44 PM	Perhaps a balanced way to get some skill involved? Skill - Applied Force (Int) When making a str check to break down a door, bend bars, etc. you can use your knowledge of materials and construction to better focus your efforts. The time required to make the check increases to a full round action if it was a standard action or less; otherwise it increases by one round. Make a Applied Force skill check against the DC of the strength check you wish to make. If you succeed, you get a +2 circumstance bonus on the strength check. If you use this skill while performing an Aid Another on a str check made by another character and you beat the DC by at least 5 you provide +4 to the other character's str check instead of only +2. If more than one character is attempting an Aid Another on the same str check, only one of them may attempt an Applied Force skill check to improve the result.
tafkamhokie 08-30-07, 10:27 PM	Personally, I like the idea and have considered doing something similar myself. If you think about breaking an object or even resisting being tripped, proper technique can absolutely trump brute force. It should definitely be possible to put ranks in lifting, pushing, or breaking things. I disagree, however, that it would have any effect on carrying capacity. This skill is all about a burst of force with the proper leverage, not carrying a heavier load over time. But one absolutely key mechanic would be to limit the heck out of who can put how many ranks in it. Otherwise you will have the 8 Str tenth level wizard busting out of chains just because they have a high INT and decided to sink some of their spare skill points into this. Personally, I would call it a cross-class skill for fighters and monks and a prohibited skill for anyone else. Fighters and monks are all about martial study, so it makes sense that they have a better understanding of leverage and biomechanics than anyone else. Barbarians, while certainly strong, simply rely on brute force and not the tactical application of force. No other class has the pure martial aptitude to put ranks in this skill. Limit it that way, and this could certainly work. Plus, if nothing else, it throws the much maligned Fighter a bone and gives them something to spend their paltry skill points on that might be useful.
zorgling25 08-31-07, 12:38 AM	If you think about breaking an object or even resisting being tripped, proper technique can absolutely trump brute force. It should definitely be possible to put ranks in lifting, pushing, or breaking things. You could make it a skill trick, that's based around ranks in Knowledge: Architecture and Engineering.
imakuni67 08-31-07, 01:15 AM	You could make it a skill trick, that's based around ranks in Knowledge: Architecture and Engineering. You could make 5 ranks in Knowledge: Architecture and Engineering give a +2 synergy bonus to strength checks to break/bend/snap things. That skill isn't very useful for much else!
Someone 08-31-07, 01:11 PM	This might be better off as a feat- call it "Attribute Focus (Strength)" or something. A +1 or 2 to all strength checks (including opposed checks like bull rush or trip) would be useful without being too powerful.
Istaran 08-31-07, 02:12 PM	Personally, I would call it a cross-class skill for fighters and monks and a prohibited skill for anyone else. Fighters and monks are all about martial study, so it makes sense that they have a better understanding of leverage and biomechanics than anyone else. Barbarians, while certainly strong, simply rely on brute force and not the tactical application of force. No other class has the pure martial aptitude to put ranks in this skill. You are somehow of the opinion that only fighters and monks have the mental capabilities to learn this stuff? There is a reason they stopped prohibiting skills to classes; it's silly. Anyone who takes the time to learn can learn this stuff. Fighters and monks are certainly more appropriate classes to get it as class skills than most others though. Also, as mentioned above, I don't think it is wise to have it be a straight roll to replace the traditional str check. Either people will be doing things way out of proportion with thier strength, or the DCs will have to be scaled up to where normal brute force is no longer given its due. That's why I recommended making it a skill check to get a +2 on the str check - using leverage better you give yourself a mechanical advantage, but someone much stronger is still going to have an easier time.
Istaran 08-31-07, 02:13 PM	This might be better off as a feat- call it "Attribute Focus (Strength)" or something. A +1 or 2 to all strength checks (including opposed checks like bull rush or trip) would be useful without being too powerful. Sounds like something that will be shunned for being too reasonable. Everyone will agree it's balanced and then choose not to take it because feats are too precious of a commodity.