New Skill: Wit [Archive] - Wizards Community

New Skill: Wit [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
bkdubs123
08-24-07, 06:08 PM A friend and I were talking about what our ability scores and feats, and class levels etc, etc would be one day, when we came across a peculiarity. Often times we both consider ourselves to be quite charismatic and generally well-liked. However, if we venture too far outside our circle we find this not to always be the case. Our jokes aren't as well received, our allusions and references not picked up on. The problem we discovered was that often times when an Intellectual person talks to a more or less Ignorant the Intellectual can be perceived by the Ignorant as the "stupid" one. Perhaps if the Intellectual were more Charismatic this would be less of a problem. However, within the Intellectual community the semblance of charisma can be maintained, for those with the proper knowledge or etiquette are regarded as equals within that community.

I propose a new skill to reflect that sort of "percieved charisma." It is a social interaction skill much like Diplomacy or Intimidate, but it is based upon Intelligence rather than Charisma. The skill Wit works by making two opposed skill checks (both Wit checks). The hope is that both parties can achieve a similar result. If that is the case then the initiator can influence the other's perceptions and even feelings toward him much like with Diplomacy.

Anyway, before I go too far with mechanics, what do you think of this idea?
T_Stalker
08-25-07, 11:33 AM Personally, I think it's redundant.
There is in fact a section in the DMG about reputation. Which seems to me, what you are getting at. (Under the Leadership feat, Cohorts section. It's really small, but it has a little table ;) )
Furthermore, with skillpoints being low enough already, just stick to Diplomacy, which can be broken easy enough. You can always talk to your DM about adding Int to Diplomacy instead of Cha, or maybe getting a bonus from it, but really, I think it's fine as it is already.
bkdubs123
08-26-07, 04:46 PM Wit, it's how I often make new friends and associates. Drawing on my knowledge of several different cultures (popular culture, scientific culture, politics, religion, etc). I feel like it works different enough from Diplomacy to warrant a new skill. The way (and reason) it works is you say something (making some reference to a specific culture) and if the person understands then you've made social progress. Make sense?

Speaking of redundancy, isn't Intimidate more redundant compared against Diplomacy?
T_Stalker
08-26-07, 05:24 PM Like I said, I suggest you just play it with another ability as the modifier, namely Int. Intimidate could be totally based on Strength, I personally have no idea why they made it a Charisma based skill. It's not like you need a great personality to threaten someone into giving you what you want. Grabbing someone by the collar and saying you're going to break his neck, no matter how much you stutter or spit while you talk should be pretty effective I say.
But don't confuse real life with DnD rules, you are ofcourse free to houserule it in a way that makes more sense to you.
I agree the way you explain it works in real life, but I wouldn't make an entirely new skill over it, certainly not one that needs that same skill in an opposed role.
On the other hand, no matter how much sense you might make while telling your tale, if you sound like an <donkey pit> while doing it, some people don't tend to appreciate it and might choose to ignore rational thought and like to act like an idiot, just to spite you.
Just my two cents.
EpicEvokerElf
08-26-07, 10:35 PM I recommend Rich Burlew's Diplomacy skill, found here (http://www.giantitp.com/articles/jFppYwv7OUkegKhONNF.html). On the topic, though, I really don't see the need. Burlew's Diplomacy has mechanics for that stuff. (He's the guy who writes Order of the Stick, if you didn't know.)

Just my 2cp.
LazyNinja
08-27-07, 01:10 PM The problem we discovered was that often times when an Intellectual person talks to a more or less Ignorant the Intellectual can be perceived by the Ignorant as the "stupid" one.

Big words hurt head. Talky man speak too fast. Me tink you is dumb one! Bwahaha!

I think there are too many skills already. I'd make it a feat. Witty: Use your Intelligence modifier in place of your Charisma modifier on Charisma-based skill checks.

Maybe add a small bonus to one or two skills as well.
supersod
08-27-07, 06:58 PM i think ill steal this, when you think about it, you use intelligence to sense your audience and then your knowledge on the subject determines if people will respect what your saying.
bkdubs123
08-27-07, 11:34 PM Huh, someone else actually thinks the idea is worthwhile. I could make a feat simply called Witty that substitutes Intelligence for charisma based skill checks, but that would be boring (although its a fair solution).

The mechanics would basically work exactly the same as Diplomacy (for changing dispositions at least) except each party would have to make some arbitrary DC. Perhaps you attempt a certain DC at the onset. First you try to match it, and then the other party tries to match it. If you meet or beat the DC you have chance to influence the target, but wait -- do they actually get it? They make Wit check and try to match it. As long as they get within 5 points of the set DC you have successfully gotten somewhere. However if you succeed the DC by more than 10 you might have gone over their head. In that case the other party must meet or exceed the check DC.

Depending on how high you set the DC you can yield better results. If you start up a conversation with the Princess herself at the ball and you manage to keep up with the intricacies of court, politics, and etiquite and even make your own reference to your disapproval of Count Bando's hunting expeditions into Orc territory (DC 30), then you would have a greater success than if you merely perhaps surprised her with a quick quip about her Waltz is slightly off (DC 20).

The deeper I go into this the more I like it.
zorgling25
08-27-07, 11:43 PM There was an Innuendo skill in 3.0. It got subsumed into the Bluff and Diplomacy skills for a reason, namely, it became too tedious for players to be putting skill points into a skill with such specific focus. To me, this doesn't look very different from the old Innuendo skill.
Sir_Chivalry
08-27-07, 11:48 PM Actually, Wit is a division of the many versions of Perform. Dragon magazine.
bkdubs123
08-28-07, 01:22 PM ??? Perform (Wit)???

Whaaaat? How on earth does that work? Tell me that a Bard can bardic music using wit. Just tell me that.

Wit isn't something you can just do. Its a social interaction. Someone says something and then you say something witty back. Perhaps a word play, or a juxtaposition of meaning. Perhaps you make a reference to popular culture that not everyone will get.

How do you perform Wit?
was_fired
08-28-07, 02:11 PM Actually, yeah it does make sense for a bard to be able to use wit to inspire others. Constant snarky remarks in a battle about the enemies, amusing jokes to keep up the spirits, and hilarious anecdotes. As for not being able to make people from different social circles think you're witty that normally has to do with the person not knowing their own limitations, and what jokes and comments play well with a given audience. No one can be perfect, but it isn't a matter of intellectualism. It's a matter of interests.
bkdubs123
08-28-07, 04:22 PM Hmm... I was a little tired this morning so sorry you'll have to excuse me. I can see how a Bard can inspire with Wit, but it still doesn't seem to fit exactly with the perform skill. You can't make money with Wit. You can make money with Wit supplementing Perform (comedy). That's somewhat different. You can use Wit in a combat situation, but only because the enemy has done something stupid and you are able to respond with something snappy, funny, and fitting to the action and environment. You can't sit on a streetcorner just spouting out witty sayings. If you aren't interacting with something you can't be witty. You can sit on a streetcorner and Perform (dance) or Perform (drama) or Perform (comedy). These don't rely on social interaction, they are prepared actions. Wit is spontaneous.
dknight100
08-28-07, 10:00 PM just with the int bonus to social skills - you pretty much already have an int bonus to social skills - its how many ranks you can put in it.
DwarvinJedi
08-28-07, 10:12 PM Give a synergy bonus due to Knowledge (whatever) skill ranks. If you are knowledgeable about Pop culture and talk to someone else knowledgeable, then they are likely to catch references, it doesn't mean that because you are knowledgable you are diplomatic.
bkdubs123
08-29-07, 01:53 AM No of course not, it wouldn't work exactly like Diplomacy, just a lot like it. You wouldn't be able to get as far with wit as you might with Diplomacy, but you know you make some references here and there based on your varied knowledge (I kinda like the synergy bonuses idea though) and if they get it you can get responses like, "Oh, you know about the Unearthed War?" or "Really? Arcane energies are actually manipulated by gravity? Tell me more..." which generally give the other party a higher opinion of you than they had before. Make sense?

Maybe your Bard isn't getting anywhere with his silver tongue and then the Wizard makes some off the wall comment under his breath and the NPC picks up on a reference made and he and the Wizard hit it off.
Captain_Kobold
08-29-07, 12:02 PM Maybe your Bard isn't getting anywhere with his silver tongue and then the Wizard makes some off the wall comment under his breath and the NPC picks up on a reference made and he and the Wizard hit it off.

This sounds more like a case of the Bard failing his Diplomacy roll, and the Wizard making his. You can coldly analyse a social situation as much as you want, but when it comes to picking up on social cues (Sense Motive) or actually getting along with people (Diplomacy), it is your perception (Wisdom) and Charisma that determine how well you do.

Knowing how to get on with people, including pop-culture references from social strata other than your own is a function of your ranks in diplomacy. Your inlelligence already has an influence here, by making more ranks available to you.
When it comes to actually applying this knowledge in a situation with real people, you use charisma a a base.

Its partly the same reason Charisma is used for Intimidate. You can scare someone with strength, or other abilities, and demonstrating these can give you a positive modifier on the roll, but at heart, it is the way you put your point across that determines whether they do as you say or not.

So, overall, I would point out that the uses that you propose for your Wit skill are already covered in the Diplomacy skill description, and that the mechanic of using Charisma when applying such skills fits. The best way of applying a similar mechanic to your suggested Wit skill would be to ask your DM if you can create a feat that does so.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
bkdubs123 08-24-07, 06:08 PM	A friend and I were talking about what our ability scores and feats, and class levels etc, etc would be one day, when we came across a peculiarity. Often times we both consider ourselves to be quite charismatic and generally well-liked. However, if we venture too far outside our circle we find this not to always be the case. Our jokes aren't as well received, our allusions and references not picked up on. The problem we discovered was that often times when an Intellectual person talks to a more or less Ignorant the Intellectual can be perceived by the Ignorant as the "stupid" one. Perhaps if the Intellectual were more Charismatic this would be less of a problem. However, within the Intellectual community the semblance of charisma can be maintained, for those with the proper knowledge or etiquette are regarded as equals within that community. I propose a new skill to reflect that sort of "percieved charisma." It is a social interaction skill much like Diplomacy or Intimidate, but it is based upon Intelligence rather than Charisma. The skill Wit works by making two opposed skill checks (both Wit checks). The hope is that both parties can achieve a similar result. If that is the case then the initiator can influence the other's perceptions and even feelings toward him much like with Diplomacy. Anyway, before I go too far with mechanics, what do you think of this idea?
T_Stalker 08-25-07, 11:33 AM	Personally, I think it's redundant. There is in fact a section in the DMG about reputation. Which seems to me, what you are getting at. (Under the Leadership feat, Cohorts section. It's really small, but it has a little table ;) ) Furthermore, with skillpoints being low enough already, just stick to Diplomacy, which can be broken easy enough. You can always talk to your DM about adding Int to Diplomacy instead of Cha, or maybe getting a bonus from it, but really, I think it's fine as it is already.
bkdubs123 08-26-07, 04:46 PM	Wit, it's how I often make new friends and associates. Drawing on my knowledge of several different cultures (popular culture, scientific culture, politics, religion, etc). I feel like it works different enough from Diplomacy to warrant a new skill. The way (and reason) it works is you say something (making some reference to a specific culture) and if the person understands then you've made social progress. Make sense? Speaking of redundancy, isn't Intimidate more redundant compared against Diplomacy?
T_Stalker 08-26-07, 05:24 PM	Like I said, I suggest you just play it with another ability as the modifier, namely Int. Intimidate could be totally based on Strength, I personally have no idea why they made it a Charisma based skill. It's not like you need a great personality to threaten someone into giving you what you want. Grabbing someone by the collar and saying you're going to break his neck, no matter how much you stutter or spit while you talk should be pretty effective I say. But don't confuse real life with DnD rules, you are ofcourse free to houserule it in a way that makes more sense to you. I agree the way you explain it works in real life, but I wouldn't make an entirely new skill over it, certainly not one that needs that same skill in an opposed role. On the other hand, no matter how much sense you might make while telling your tale, if you sound like an <donkey pit> while doing it, some people don't tend to appreciate it and might choose to ignore rational thought and like to act like an idiot, just to spite you. Just my two cents.
EpicEvokerElf 08-26-07, 10:35 PM	I recommend Rich Burlew's Diplomacy skill, found here (http://www.giantitp.com/articles/jFppYwv7OUkegKhONNF.html). On the topic, though, I really don't see the need. Burlew's Diplomacy has mechanics for that stuff. (He's the guy who writes Order of the Stick, if you didn't know.) Just my 2cp.
LazyNinja 08-27-07, 01:10 PM	The problem we discovered was that often times when an Intellectual person talks to a more or less Ignorant the Intellectual can be perceived by the Ignorant as the "stupid" one. Big words hurt head. Talky man speak too fast. Me tink you is dumb one! Bwahaha! I think there are too many skills already. I'd make it a feat. Witty: Use your Intelligence modifier in place of your Charisma modifier on Charisma-based skill checks. Maybe add a small bonus to one or two skills as well.
supersod 08-27-07, 06:58 PM	i think ill steal this, when you think about it, you use intelligence to sense your audience and then your knowledge on the subject determines if people will respect what your saying.
bkdubs123 08-27-07, 11:34 PM	Huh, someone else actually thinks the idea is worthwhile. I could make a feat simply called Witty that substitutes Intelligence for charisma based skill checks, but that would be boring (although its a fair solution). The mechanics would basically work exactly the same as Diplomacy (for changing dispositions at least) except each party would have to make some arbitrary DC. Perhaps you attempt a certain DC at the onset. First you try to match it, and then the other party tries to match it. If you meet or beat the DC you have chance to influence the target, but wait -- do they actually get it? They make Wit check and try to match it. As long as they get within 5 points of the set DC you have successfully gotten somewhere. However if you succeed the DC by more than 10 you might have gone over their head. In that case the other party must meet or exceed the check DC. Depending on how high you set the DC you can yield better results. If you start up a conversation with the Princess herself at the ball and you manage to keep up with the intricacies of court, politics, and etiquite and even make your own reference to your disapproval of Count Bando's hunting expeditions into Orc territory (DC 30), then you would have a greater success than if you merely perhaps surprised her with a quick quip about her Waltz is slightly off (DC 20). The deeper I go into this the more I like it.
zorgling25 08-27-07, 11:43 PM	There was an Innuendo skill in 3.0. It got subsumed into the Bluff and Diplomacy skills for a reason, namely, it became too tedious for players to be putting skill points into a skill with such specific focus. To me, this doesn't look very different from the old Innuendo skill.
Sir_Chivalry 08-27-07, 11:48 PM	Actually, Wit is a division of the many versions of Perform. Dragon magazine.
bkdubs123 08-28-07, 01:22 PM	??? Perform (Wit)??? Whaaaat? How on earth does that work? Tell me that a Bard can bardic music using wit. Just tell me that. Wit isn't something you can just do. Its a social interaction. Someone says something and then you say something witty back. Perhaps a word play, or a juxtaposition of meaning. Perhaps you make a reference to popular culture that not everyone will get. How do you perform Wit?
was_fired 08-28-07, 02:11 PM	Actually, yeah it does make sense for a bard to be able to use wit to inspire others. Constant snarky remarks in a battle about the enemies, amusing jokes to keep up the spirits, and hilarious anecdotes. As for not being able to make people from different social circles think you're witty that normally has to do with the person not knowing their own limitations, and what jokes and comments play well with a given audience. No one can be perfect, but it isn't a matter of intellectualism. It's a matter of interests.
bkdubs123 08-28-07, 04:22 PM	Hmm... I was a little tired this morning so sorry you'll have to excuse me. I can see how a Bard can inspire with Wit, but it still doesn't seem to fit exactly with the perform skill. You can't make money with Wit. You can make money with Wit supplementing Perform (comedy). That's somewhat different. You can use Wit in a combat situation, but only because the enemy has done something stupid and you are able to respond with something snappy, funny, and fitting to the action and environment. You can't sit on a streetcorner just spouting out witty sayings. If you aren't interacting with something you can't be witty. You can sit on a streetcorner and Perform (dance) or Perform (drama) or Perform (comedy). These don't rely on social interaction, they are prepared actions. Wit is spontaneous.
dknight100 08-28-07, 10:00 PM	just with the int bonus to social skills - you pretty much already have an int bonus to social skills - its how many ranks you can put in it.
DwarvinJedi 08-28-07, 10:12 PM	Give a synergy bonus due to Knowledge (whatever) skill ranks. If you are knowledgeable about Pop culture and talk to someone else knowledgeable, then they are likely to catch references, it doesn't mean that because you are knowledgable you are diplomatic.
bkdubs123 08-29-07, 01:53 AM	No of course not, it wouldn't work exactly like Diplomacy, just a lot like it. You wouldn't be able to get as far with wit as you might with Diplomacy, but you know you make some references here and there based on your varied knowledge (I kinda like the synergy bonuses idea though) and if they get it you can get responses like, "Oh, you know about the Unearthed War?" or "Really? Arcane energies are actually manipulated by gravity? Tell me more..." which generally give the other party a higher opinion of you than they had before. Make sense? Maybe your Bard isn't getting anywhere with his silver tongue and then the Wizard makes some off the wall comment under his breath and the NPC picks up on a reference made and he and the Wizard hit it off.
Captain_Kobold 08-29-07, 12:02 PM	Maybe your Bard isn't getting anywhere with his silver tongue and then the Wizard makes some off the wall comment under his breath and the NPC picks up on a reference made and he and the Wizard hit it off. This sounds more like a case of the Bard failing his Diplomacy roll, and the Wizard making his. You can coldly analyse a social situation as much as you want, but when it comes to picking up on social cues (Sense Motive) or actually getting along with people (Diplomacy), it is your perception (Wisdom) and Charisma that determine how well you do. Knowing how to get on with people, including pop-culture references from social strata other than your own is a function of your ranks in diplomacy. Your inlelligence already has an influence here, by making more ranks available to you. When it comes to actually applying this knowledge in a situation with real people, you use charisma a a base. Its partly the same reason Charisma is used for Intimidate. You can scare someone with strength, or other abilities, and demonstrating these can give you a positive modifier on the roll, but at heart, it is the way you put your point across that determines whether they do as you say or not. So, overall, I would point out that the uses that you propose for your Wit skill are already covered in the Diplomacy skill description, and that the mechanic of using Charisma when applying such skills fits. The best way of applying a similar mechanic to your suggested Wit skill would be to ask your DM if you can create a feat that does so.