Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Jaith 06-19-07, 04:59 PM	Unorthodox Training- Description-You have been trained in a school not usually studied by those that follow the same path of the sublime way at the expense of another school. Prerequisites- Crusader, Swordsage, or Warblade level 1 Benefits- Choose 1 school that is not available to your class. You may now treat that school as one available to your class. Pick one school that is normally available to your class. You now treat this school as unavailable to your class. Special- You may only take this feat at level one. You may not take this feat multiple times(Human bonus feat). What do you guys think, is this balanced?
AllisterH 06-19-07, 06:31 PM	What do you guys think, is this balanced? Basically, you're switching one school for another. Wouldn't be worth a feat IMO, just consider it a la the class variant feature as seen in the PHB II. IIRC, Mike Mearls (designer on ToB) mentions that there's nothing inherently unbalancing behind switching the schools based on power concerns. Might be an issue of fluff though since each class has their own specific school, crusader:devoted spirit, swordsage: desert wind/shadow hand and warblade:iron heart and in a party situation with multiple martial adepts, you might have a swordsage that has all the fluff of a crusader.
Neutronium_Dragon 06-19-07, 10:47 PM	As long as there's a thematic fit to the switch out then there isn't really a need to spend a feat for it. The selection of disciplines for each class were made on the basis of theme, not power, and you can shuffle them around (or even give access to every discipline) without creating any problems. It would be advisable to at least maintain some form of theme relation, however. It wouldn't be too unusual for a Warblade from an Arabian Nights-themed campaign (or region) to have Desert Wind rather than (say) Tiger Claw or Stone Dragon, and a crusader for the cause of Malar (a god of bestial savagery) might make more sense having Tiger Claw rather than White Raven. Etc.
The_Vortex 06-20-07, 01:49 AM	From my PoV, this feat is quite powerfull since it allows Warblades to be nice healers with the Devoted Spirit Maneuvers or Access to Desert Wind with its Maneuvers that affect every attack you make.. I don't think that the desciplines are equal in power, some are better than others.. and I, for one, don't wan't to have someone who can heal 3d6+5 every other round by attacking the enemy at level 5!
Karla 06-20-07, 10:04 AM	From my PoV, this feat is quite powerfull since it allows Warblades to be nice healers with the Devoted Spirit Maneuvers or Access to Desert Wind with its Maneuvers that affect every attack you make.. I don't think that the desciplines are equal in power, some are better than others.. and I, for one, don't wan't to have someone who can heal 3d6+5 every other round by attacking the enemy at level 5! I guess you'd better hope that nobody multiclasses Martial adepts anywhere near you soon - or indeed uses the Master of Nine prestige class... Besides, whilst the ability to heal 15 or so hp every other round is somewhat useful, doing so means using no offensive strikes whatsoever during that combat which does rather negate the point of being a martial fighter!
Nifft 06-20-07, 11:25 AM	IMHO, there are three "top tier" schools which are exclusive to one particular class. Shadow Hand, Devoted Spirit and Iron Heart. There are three tier 2 schools: Diamond Mind, White Raven and Desert Wind. There are three tier 3 schools: Tiger Claw, Stone Dragon and Setting Sun. I'd restrict the trades so that you can't ever trade up. You can't trade out Desert Wind to gain Iron Heart, for example, but you could trade Desert Wind for White Raven. Cheers, -- N
Dyrrl 06-20-07, 12:54 PM	IMHO, there are three "top tier" schools which are exclusive to one particular class. Shadow Hand, Devoted Spirit and Iron Heart. There are three tier 2 schools: Diamond Mind, White Raven and Desert Wind. There are three tier 3 schools: Tiger Claw, Stone Dragon and Setting Sun. I'd restrict the trades so that you can't ever trade up. You can't trade out Desert Wind to gain Iron Heart, for example, but you could trade Desert Wind for White Raven. How are these tiers decided? As far as raw power, Devoted Spirit is by far one of the weakest disciplines (balanced but weak). And I think Diamond Mind is one of the most powerful (time stands still, Diamond nightmare blade, etc..). No offence intended, but that whole tier thing seems broken to me. I found all schools to be very well done and balanced in their own right. Why would you tier them? I can understand (I guess) not distributing exclusive schools but you can just take feats if you really want... and Mo9 is teh most pwnage for your maneuver buck. :twocents: I'm Kevin Neilan, and that's news to me....
Nifft 06-20-07, 09:56 PM	How are these tiers decided? As far as raw power, Devoted Spirit is by far one of the weakest disciplines (balanced but weak). And I think Diamond Mind is one of the most powerful (time stands still, Diamond nightmare blade, etc..). No offence intended, but that whole tier thing seems broken to me. I found all schools to be very well done and balanced in their own right. Why would you tier them? I can understand (I guess) not distributing exclusive schools but you can just take feats if you really want... and Mo9 is teh most pwnage for your maneuver buck. :twocents: I'm Kevin Neilan, and that's news to me.... My criteria were: 1/ Exclusivity; 2/ Applicability; and 3/ Power. (Note that you can only ever gain three maneuvers total via feats. You can gain an unlimited number of stances via feats, though.) The top tier schools are each exclusive to one of the three Martial Adept classes. The are what I consider the defining school of each class. The three in the middle are Diamond Mind, White Raven and Desert Wind. Two of them are very strong, but are not exclusive; the third is moderately powerful to strong (depending on campaign), but exclusive to one class. The three at the bottom are situational. Stone Dragon is the worst in this regard (thanks to its initiation requirement), but Setting Sun's throws are bad against big (or flying or swimming) targets, and many Tiger Claw strikes require a check that is hard to make while flying or under water (and TWF is weaker than two-handed unless you've got Assassin's Stance, which is from a Tier 1 school). Anyway. My basic point is: you shouldn't be allowed to trade Stone Dragon and gain Iron Heart. (Note that for a Crusader, Stone Dragon is actually a decent school, thanks to Stone Power. So Crusaders have a hard choice. The other two classes have more schools available, so the temptation to switch should be reduced a bit.) Does that make sense? Cheers, -- N
Vaelan 06-20-07, 11:25 PM	The three at the bottom are situational. Stone Dragon is the worst in this regard (thanks to its initiation requirement), but Setting Sun's throws are bad against big (or flying or swimming) targets... You're shortchanging Setting Sun. It uses a Trip check, but the limitations on Trip are part of the attack and the result, not the check. ...and many Tiger Claw strikes require a check that is hard to make while flying or under water (and TWF is weaker than two-handed unless you've got Assassin's Stance, which is from a Tier 1 school). You need more than Assassin's Stance. Also, flying carpets are a rather nice substitute for a boring old Fly spell and allow you to Jump. They are a bit slower, though.
Dyrrl 06-21-07, 09:35 AM	Anyway. My basic point is: you shouldn't be allowed to trade Stone Dragon and gain Iron Heart. Agreed, treat Stone Dragon like divination... you can never give it up..
Nifft 06-21-07, 12:08 PM	You're shortchanging Setting Sun. Entirely possible. It could be a Tier 2. You need more than Assassin's Stance. Also, flying carpets are a rather nice substitute for a boring old Fly spell and allow you to Jump. They are a bit slower, though. Also, jumping off flying carpets has a bit of a downside if you can't actually fly... ;) -- N
Nifft 06-21-07, 12:10 PM	Agreed, treat Stone Dragon like divination... you can never give it up.. Something I allowed a PC in my game to do was give up Stone Dragon and another school Tier 2 school to gain access to Diamond Mind. Access to Stone Dragon is actually not all that sucky, because it's the most cherry-pick friendly school. Bonecrusher? Mountain Tombstone Strike? No prerequisites! Erp. Cheers, -- N
Chimaera2000 06-21-07, 06:31 PM	IMHO, there are three "top tier" schools which are exclusive to one particular class. Shadow Hand, Devoted Spirit and Iron Heart. There are three tier 2 schools: Diamond Mind, White Raven and Desert Wind. There are three tier 3 schools: Tiger Claw, Stone Dragon and Setting Sun. I'd restrict the trades so that you can't ever trade up. You can't trade out Desert Wind to gain Iron Heart, for example, but you could trade Desert Wind for White Raven. Cheers, -- N How are these tiers decided? As far as raw power, Devoted Spirit is by far one of the weakest disciplines (balanced but weak). And I think Diamond Mind is one of the most powerful (time stands still, Diamond nightmare blade, etc..). No offence intended, but that whole tier thing seems broken to me. I found all schools to be very well done and balanced in their own right. Why would you tier them? I can understand (I guess) not distributing exclusive schools but you can just take feats if you really want... and Mo9 is teh most pwnage for your maneuver buck. :twocents: I'm Kevin Neilan, and that's news to me.... I can't say that I really agree with some of those rankings. In my opinion (and many others on the boards), White Raven is easily the strongest discipline in the book. You improve not just yourself, but your entire team; their stances are exceptionally good for this. They also have access to devastating maneuvers like White Raven Hammer, War Master's Charge and arguably the strongest maneuver in the entire book, White Raven Tactics. You don't have to have White Raven to be an effective martial adept, but sweet Pelor is it powerful. I also find Devoted Spirit to be much stronger than some give it credit for. It does have the disadvantage of having some maneuvers be alignment-restricted, but it has a wide range of very strong maneuvers. Its healing ability is unique and is a huge part of the crusader's nigh-unkillability. You can deal out hefty damage with Divine Surge, Radiant Charge and Greater Divine Surge. It's unparalled in its ability to focus attention on yourself, allowing you to protect squishy party members while you instead soak up damage like a sponge. Finally, you can make a devastating Attack of Opportunity-focused character with Devoted Spirit: Defensive Rebuke and Thicket of Blades let you absolutely crush the enemy even when you're healing yourself with Revatilizing Strike. In response to the OP, I'd say to talk to the DM about the idea and see how they feel about swapping out one school for another. I do think that some schools are less potent than others (Desert Wind being very weak and Stone Dragon being powerful but highly limited). I'm not sure why, but a warblade with Shadow Hand or Setting Sun just rubs me the wrong way. It's not going to break the game, but I'm not sure whether that ability can just be done with an alternate class feature or is worth a feat. If a feat is required, you'll probably want to add some minor benefit to it as well, like +2 to a relevant skill or the like.
Nifft 06-23-07, 04:05 PM	I can't say that I really agree with some of those rankings. In my opinion (and many others on the boards), White Raven is easily the strongest discipline in the book. White Raven is very, very strong (for larger groups). No argument. But we're talking about swapping out schools, and two of the base classes already have White Raven. What is White Raven worth to the Swordsage, the only class that doesn't get access to it already? Is it worth Stone Dragon? (Easily.) Is it worth Shadow Hand? (No way.) Is it worth Desert Wind? (Yes.) I also find Devoted Spirit to be much stronger than some give it credit for. No argument here -- it's one of the top tier schools IMHO. But please, if you think there's a better way to organize the schools for the purpose of helping a DM swap them in a non-broken way, post it! :) Cheers, -- N
hiryuu 06-23-07, 04:53 PM	Our group has been using "every discipline, every class" since we first got the book, and we've not run into any problems so far (mostly because nobody in the group wanted a class whose abilities are effectively random). Most of the time a character sticks to one or two disciplines that fit thematically with the character concept, and that works pretty well.
Jaith 06-23-07, 09:39 PM	Thanx for all the responses folks, but everything aside, do you think the feat is balanced. I was thinking of just letting the players pick thier own schools, six for swordsage, and 5 for warblade. Leaving Crusader alone for fluff reasons. I just don't see how they could screw up the balance that bad.
Neutronium_Dragon 06-24-07, 12:47 AM	Well, no, I don't think it's balanced because it's supposing that you should spend a feat to do something which by the design you ought to be able to do anyway, so in effect you're spending a feat for no benefit.