No flinging disarm...? [Archive] - Wizards Community

No flinging disarm...? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
bolobaby
08-06-07, 09:58 AM I've been looking through the source books, trying to find a "Flinging Disarm" feat, but haven't been able to spot one anywhere. Basically, I want a feat that throws the weapon aside some distance on a successful disarm attempt (instead of it dropping right at the opponent's feet).

I can't believe this technique HASN'T been covered in 3.5. After all, flinging an opponent's weapon away with a disarm attempt is a STAPLE of fantasy/swordplay movies.

So, please, for the love of god, someone tell me I'm mistaken and that the feat is out there someplace... Dragon mag, some campaign setting, somewhere!

(Furthermore, it would be awesome to see a higher level feat where, on a successful flinging disarm, you control the direction of the flung weapon such that it becomes a free ranged attack...)
Dalthbar
08-06-07, 10:03 AM I'm not aware of a feat to do this and without coming up with one, the best option I can give you is to just disarm your opponent unarmed (a la monk). This will allow you to end up with the weapon at the end of your disarm attempt (if you succeed) and you can then drop it in your square (as a free action) - which would prohibit your target from getting it unless they move into your square first.

The only real downside is that unarmed attacks count as light weapons and thus take a -4 to the opposed rolls. I personally always thought that this should be errataed for monks, but whatev, just my opinion.
Dheran
08-06-07, 10:57 AM I'm not aware of a feat to do this and without coming up with one, the best option I can give you is to just disarm your opponent unarmed (a la monk). This will allow you to end up with the weapon at the end of your disarm attempt (if you succeed) and you can then drop it in your square (as a free action) - which would prohibit your target from getting it unless they move into your square first. This won't prevent the opponent from just picking up the weapon. Their natural reach lets them access your square to hit you in it, so they can reach into it for other purposes as well. Picking up an item provokes an AoO, of course.
jaelis
08-06-07, 11:04 AM This won't prevent the opponent from just picking up the weapon. Their natural reach lets them access your square to hit you in it, so they can reach into it for other purposes as well. Picking up an item provokes an AoO, of course.

I tend to agree, but not everyone does. The rules don't really say.

But I think that if you play this way, you should probably also say that the monk could drop the weapon in to any square he reaches. So then just drop the weapon behind you and you're still good.
bolobaby
08-06-07, 11:41 AM OK, so in light of the fact that it doesn't seem to be out there (which is just stupid - put it in the next sourcebook Wizards!)

Let's try building a feat tree:

Starts with

Combat Expertise (Int 13)
Improved Disarm (Combat Expertise)

Flinging Disarm
Prerequisites: Int 13, Combat Expertise, Improved Disarm, base attack bonus +4
Benefit: If you successfully disarm an opponent, you can fling their weapon in any direction up to 30'. Although the weapon flies through the air, it does not threaten any creatures in the path of it's flight.

Improved Flinging Disarm
Prerequisites: Int 13, Combat Expertise, Improved Disarm, Flinging Disarm, base attack bonus +8
Benefit: If you successfully disarm an opponent, you can fling their weapon at any other opponent within 30 feet as a free ranged attack. Normal ranged attack rules apply. If the weapon does not normally have a range increment, it has a range increment of 10' and is -4 to hit. If the weapon hits, it does only the damage associated with the weapon. That is, the weapon's base damage plus any magical modifiers.

Stunning Fling
Prerequisites: Int 13, Combat Expertise, Improved Disarm, Flinging Disarm, Improved Flinging Disarm, base attack bonus +12
Benefit: If you successfully disarm an opponent, you can fling their weapon at any other opponent within 30 feet and attempt to stun that opponent. You must succeed on a ranged touch attack and normal ranged attack rules apply. If the weapon does not normally have a range increment, it has a range increment of 10' and is -4 to hit. If the weapon hits, the target must make a Fortitude save versus DC 10 + 1/2 character level + your strength bonus or be stunned for one turn.
GrogMcGee
08-06-07, 12:26 PM OK, so in light of the fact that it doesn't seem to be out there (which is just stupid - put it in the next sourcebook Wizards!)

Let's try building a feat tree:

Starts with

Combat Expertise (Int 13)
Improved Disarm (Combat Expertise)

Flinging Disarm
Prerequisites: Int 13, Combat Expertise, Improved Disarm, base attack bonus +4
Benefit: If you successfully disarm an opponent, you can fling their weapon in any direction up to 30'. Although the weapon flies through the air, it does not threaten any creatures in the path of it's flight. ...

Looks neat ... however, 30' is fairly large (15 or 20 seems more appropriate). Though more importantly I'd say this it can only move left or right from the target getting more and more random as it moves further from point of origin. Say a 30' cone.
jaelis
08-06-07, 12:28 PM What about when you fling it straight up in the air, sheath your own weapon, and then catch your opponent's on the way down? :)
GrogMcGee
08-06-07, 12:40 PM What about when you fling it straight up in the air, sheath your own weapon, and then catch your opponent's on the way down? :)

That's one dexterous fling - and really hard. Very classic fantasy so I'm sure it could be mechanically done.
Dheran
08-06-07, 12:46 PM I tend to agree, but not everyone does. The rules don't really say.

But I think that if you play this way, you should probably also say that the monk could drop the weapon in to any square he reaches. So then just drop the weapon behind you and you're still good.The rules do say this:Drop an Item

Dropping an item in your space or into an adjacent square is a free action.
Rustmonster
08-06-07, 12:47 PM Complete Warrior, Pg 103.
jaelis
08-06-07, 12:57 PM The rules do say this:
Well there you go then.
bolobaby
08-06-07, 01:36 PM Complete Warrior, Pg 103.

I think you missed the point. I'm not talking about ranged disarm, I'm talking about tossing your opponent's weapon out of his hands some distance.

To GrogMcGee:

I went with 30' because normal thrown weapons go out 5x range increment. Since the minimum range increment on weapons that don't HAVE a range increment is 10 - and that would put the max range of a normal throw at 50 - I thought 30 would be a reasonable reduction.

Maybe the answer could be 30 feet for normal weapons and lighter, 20 feet for heavy weapons.

That adds an unnecessary layer of complexity, though, that gets people's panties in a wad. I can hear the Sage Advice questions now: what about a giant's dagger? That's a light weapon to the giant, etc etc.

I'd say just go 30' and be done with it. Remember: this is a cinematic, dramatic effect that isn't necessarily grounded in reality. Just compare what some OTHER feats allow you to do! Heh.
Sigfried Trent
08-06-07, 01:41 PM Here is the version we have in the Netbook of Feats
www.datadeco.com/nbofeats

It didn't get especialy good scores but I must have liked it since I'm the one who wrote this one.

DISARM AND DENY [General, Fighter]
You can steal a weapon from your opponent.
Prerequisite: Int 13, Combat Expertise, Improved Disarm
Benefit: When you succeed at an armed disarm attempt and have a free hand, you can catch your opponent’s weapon after they drop it as a free action. If you do not wish to catch the weapon, or if you do not have a free hand, you may knock the weapon up to 20’ instead of your opponent’s square. You may choose the square the weapon lands in, but there must be an unobstructed straight path to that square and the square must not be occupied.
Normal: You can snatch an opponent’s weapon using disarm but only if you performed the disarm attempt unarmed. A successful armed disarm drops the opponent’s weapon in their current space.
DISARM AND DENY Copyright 2005, Sigfried Trent
Balance: 3.20 (Purp 3.60, Pow 3.20, Port 3.00, Comp 3.20, Rule 3.00)

We are working on a submission that is similar but allows you to fling the disarmed weapon at a foe.
StruckingFuggle
08-06-07, 03:17 PM But I think that if you play this way, you should probably also say that the monk could drop the weapon in to any square he reaches. So then just drop the weapon behind you and you're still good.

Hm. I wonder ... What would the action be to toss a weapon in your hands away from you and your enemy, potential even to another ally? (heh. Two monks playing Keep Away with a battleaxe...)
neilthrun
08-06-07, 03:21 PM I have a solution! The throw anything feat in complete warrior. Disarm opponent, and on your next attack throw the weapon at a wall or something.
bolobaby
08-06-07, 03:26 PM I have a solution! The throw anything feat in complete warrior. Disarm opponent, and on your next attack throw the weapon at a wall or something.

This only works if you have an empty hand to catch the disarmed weapon. I was thinking about disarming with two handed weapons. You know, the classic two-handed sword swirl and toss or, better yet, a Heavy Flail snatching up the weapon and flinging it far and wide.

CLEARLY, a new set of feats are needed in this category. Just about every other feat tree goes deeper except disarm. Time to get creative, WotC! :-)
StruckingFuggle
08-06-07, 04:07 PM I have a solution! The throw anything feat in complete warrior. Disarm opponent, and on your next attack throw the weapon at a wall or something.

why would you need Throw Anything (which is for weaponized throwing) to simply toss something away from you? If you pick up an apple, do you need a feat to chuck it away from you? Do you need a feat to lob it underhandedly towards your friend Bob?

What about even if it's a dagger? Do you need a feat to just go "yeah, I don't want this" or "I don't want this to be near you" and toss it away?

Now, if you wanted to peg a target with the point of the dagger, sure, but that's not what we're really talking about here.

The Throw Anything feat is overkill for just that, and also requires making an attack.

(though if you DO have it, you can throw a weapon - since it's not really "throw anything", only "throw weapon" - away from you, targeting a square. Which should allow you to get it to 50' rather easily in some cases, which IIRC would be the maximum distance you could reach).

Now, tossing it away without touching their weapon with your hands (if both your hands are full or you don't want to use them), that might be worth a feat. MAYBE. Though it'd be better as one of the things you can do with a Tactical Feat, since it's kind of conditional and not too useful, it's too expensive at the cost of just "a feat", but if you roll it into a number of things ... Flinging Disarm, some sort of Cleaving Disarm, and something else... maybe.
MrCustomer
08-06-07, 04:56 PM It depends on what weapon you are using. If you disarm a person with a club, then you are simply beating it out of their hand, if you are using a rapier then you are twisting it with a flick of your risk, if you are using a whip you are literally pulling it away from them.

In this case I would say it's the DM's call. Say you wish to not only disarm your opponent but to send the weapon flying, I would suggest that you roll disarm like normal, but have to make it at a penelty to be able to fling the weapon out of reach. Your DM can decide an extra feat is required for this (flinging disarm) or not. here is an example.

Blunt Weapons: -10 to disarm causing the weapon to fly out of reach
Slashing/peircing Weapon: -6
Weapons that qualify for Weapon Finnese (rapier): -4
Whip: -2 (stacks with the +2 bonus)

The Flinging Disarm Feat:
Lowers the penelty to throw the opponent's weapon out of reach by 4 (minimum 0)
bolobaby
08-06-07, 05:42 PM MrCustomer,

Who is to say that I can't swirl my quarterstaff around in the same fashion as your rapier and fling your weapon away? Who is to say that clubbing the dagger out of your hand with a mace will somehow make it go less distance than wrapping it up in a flail? (In this case, I'd almost argue it might go *farther*.)

By applying modifiers based on weapon type, I think you are needlessly complicating matters. Sure, it might make the system more realistic, but fun play is often about smooth play. Sometimes, less is more.

Many weapons already have a bonus to disarm attempts based upon their physical design. You also get pluses and minuses based on the size of the weapon. I'd say leave it at that.

So, with the existing bonuses in mind, all you need is a single feat that lets you put the disarmed weapon some distance away. Someone mentioned that there should be a clear path to the target square. I say "bleh." Again - needlessly complicated. I would say that you should need line of sight to the square and that's about it. If there is an intervening opponent or ally, assume that you flipped the weapon up over their heads. They also said that the weapon should land in an empty square. Again - why bother? If I was surrounded by creatures in every available square, couldn't I flip it up and over everyone's head, having the weapon fall in an occupied square? KISS. It's not "Improved", so it doesn't do damage - it just falls there at THAT character or creature's feet.

Again - I'm just shocked that this hasn't been covered somewhere in Dragon or a splat book. Seems like a no-brainer...

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
bolobaby 08-06-07, 09:58 AM	I've been looking through the source books, trying to find a "Flinging Disarm" feat, but haven't been able to spot one anywhere. Basically, I want a feat that throws the weapon aside some distance on a successful disarm attempt (instead of it dropping right at the opponent's feet). I can't believe this technique HASN'T been covered in 3.5. After all, flinging an opponent's weapon away with a disarm attempt is a STAPLE of fantasy/swordplay movies. So, please, for the love of god, someone tell me I'm mistaken and that the feat is out there someplace... Dragon mag, some campaign setting, somewhere! (Furthermore, it would be awesome to see a higher level feat where, on a successful flinging disarm, you control the direction of the flung weapon such that it becomes a free ranged attack...)
Dalthbar 08-06-07, 10:03 AM	I'm not aware of a feat to do this and without coming up with one, the best option I can give you is to just disarm your opponent unarmed (a la monk). This will allow you to end up with the weapon at the end of your disarm attempt (if you succeed) and you can then drop it in your square (as a free action) - which would prohibit your target from getting it unless they move into your square first. The only real downside is that unarmed attacks count as light weapons and thus take a -4 to the opposed rolls. I personally always thought that this should be errataed for monks, but whatev, just my opinion.
Dheran 08-06-07, 10:57 AM	I'm not aware of a feat to do this and without coming up with one, the best option I can give you is to just disarm your opponent unarmed (a la monk). This will allow you to end up with the weapon at the end of your disarm attempt (if you succeed) and you can then drop it in your square (as a free action) - which would prohibit your target from getting it unless they move into your square first. This won't prevent the opponent from just picking up the weapon. Their natural reach lets them access your square to hit you in it, so they can reach into it for other purposes as well. Picking up an item provokes an AoO, of course.
jaelis 08-06-07, 11:04 AM	This won't prevent the opponent from just picking up the weapon. Their natural reach lets them access your square to hit you in it, so they can reach into it for other purposes as well. Picking up an item provokes an AoO, of course. I tend to agree, but not everyone does. The rules don't really say. But I think that if you play this way, you should probably also say that the monk could drop the weapon in to any square he reaches. So then just drop the weapon behind you and you're still good.
bolobaby 08-06-07, 11:41 AM	OK, so in light of the fact that it doesn't seem to be out there (which is just stupid - put it in the next sourcebook Wizards!) Let's try building a feat tree: Starts with Combat Expertise (Int 13) Improved Disarm (Combat Expertise) Flinging Disarm Prerequisites: Int 13, Combat Expertise, Improved Disarm, base attack bonus +4 Benefit: If you successfully disarm an opponent, you can fling their weapon in any direction up to 30'. Although the weapon flies through the air, it does not threaten any creatures in the path of it's flight. Improved Flinging Disarm Prerequisites: Int 13, Combat Expertise, Improved Disarm, Flinging Disarm, base attack bonus +8 Benefit: If you successfully disarm an opponent, you can fling their weapon at any other opponent within 30 feet as a free ranged attack. Normal ranged attack rules apply. If the weapon does not normally have a range increment, it has a range increment of 10' and is -4 to hit. If the weapon hits, it does only the damage associated with the weapon. That is, the weapon's base damage plus any magical modifiers. Stunning Fling Prerequisites: Int 13, Combat Expertise, Improved Disarm, Flinging Disarm, Improved Flinging Disarm, base attack bonus +12 Benefit: If you successfully disarm an opponent, you can fling their weapon at any other opponent within 30 feet and attempt to stun that opponent. You must succeed on a ranged touch attack and normal ranged attack rules apply. If the weapon does not normally have a range increment, it has a range increment of 10' and is -4 to hit. If the weapon hits, the target must make a Fortitude save versus DC 10 + 1/2 character level + your strength bonus or be stunned for one turn.
GrogMcGee 08-06-07, 12:26 PM	OK, so in light of the fact that it doesn't seem to be out there (which is just stupid - put it in the next sourcebook Wizards!) Let's try building a feat tree: Starts with Combat Expertise (Int 13) Improved Disarm (Combat Expertise) Flinging Disarm Prerequisites: Int 13, Combat Expertise, Improved Disarm, base attack bonus +4 Benefit: If you successfully disarm an opponent, you can fling their weapon in any direction up to 30'. Although the weapon flies through the air, it does not threaten any creatures in the path of it's flight. ... Looks neat ... however, 30' is fairly large (15 or 20 seems more appropriate). Though more importantly I'd say this it can only move left or right from the target getting more and more random as it moves further from point of origin. Say a 30' cone.
jaelis 08-06-07, 12:28 PM	What about when you fling it straight up in the air, sheath your own weapon, and then catch your opponent's on the way down? :)
GrogMcGee 08-06-07, 12:40 PM	What about when you fling it straight up in the air, sheath your own weapon, and then catch your opponent's on the way down? :) That's one dexterous fling - and really hard. Very classic fantasy so I'm sure it could be mechanically done.
Dheran 08-06-07, 12:46 PM	I tend to agree, but not everyone does. The rules don't really say. But I think that if you play this way, you should probably also say that the monk could drop the weapon in to any square he reaches. So then just drop the weapon behind you and you're still good.The rules do say this:Drop an Item Dropping an item in your space or into an adjacent square is a free action.
Rustmonster 08-06-07, 12:47 PM	Complete Warrior, Pg 103.
jaelis 08-06-07, 12:57 PM	The rules do say this: Well there you go then.
bolobaby 08-06-07, 01:36 PM	Complete Warrior, Pg 103. I think you missed the point. I'm not talking about ranged disarm, I'm talking about tossing your opponent's weapon out of his hands some distance. To GrogMcGee: I went with 30' because normal thrown weapons go out 5x range increment. Since the minimum range increment on weapons that don't HAVE a range increment is 10 - and that would put the max range of a normal throw at 50 - I thought 30 would be a reasonable reduction. Maybe the answer could be 30 feet for normal weapons and lighter, 20 feet for heavy weapons. That adds an unnecessary layer of complexity, though, that gets people's panties in a wad. I can hear the Sage Advice questions now: what about a giant's dagger? That's a light weapon to the giant, etc etc. I'd say just go 30' and be done with it. Remember: this is a cinematic, dramatic effect that isn't necessarily grounded in reality. Just compare what some OTHER feats allow you to do! Heh.
Sigfried Trent 08-06-07, 01:41 PM	Here is the version we have in the Netbook of Feats www.datadeco.com/nbofeats It didn't get especialy good scores but I must have liked it since I'm the one who wrote this one. DISARM AND DENY [General, Fighter] You can steal a weapon from your opponent. Prerequisite: Int 13, Combat Expertise, Improved Disarm Benefit: When you succeed at an armed disarm attempt and have a free hand, you can catch your opponent’s weapon after they drop it as a free action. If you do not wish to catch the weapon, or if you do not have a free hand, you may knock the weapon up to 20’ instead of your opponent’s square. You may choose the square the weapon lands in, but there must be an unobstructed straight path to that square and the square must not be occupied. Normal: You can snatch an opponent’s weapon using disarm but only if you performed the disarm attempt unarmed. A successful armed disarm drops the opponent’s weapon in their current space. DISARM AND DENY Copyright 2005, Sigfried Trent Balance: 3.20 (Purp 3.60, Pow 3.20, Port 3.00, Comp 3.20, Rule 3.00) We are working on a submission that is similar but allows you to fling the disarmed weapon at a foe.
StruckingFuggle 08-06-07, 03:17 PM	But I think that if you play this way, you should probably also say that the monk could drop the weapon in to any square he reaches. So then just drop the weapon behind you and you're still good. Hm. I wonder ... What would the action be to toss a weapon in your hands away from you and your enemy, potential even to another ally? (heh. Two monks playing Keep Away with a battleaxe...)
neilthrun 08-06-07, 03:21 PM	I have a solution! The throw anything feat in complete warrior. Disarm opponent, and on your next attack throw the weapon at a wall or something.
bolobaby 08-06-07, 03:26 PM	I have a solution! The throw anything feat in complete warrior. Disarm opponent, and on your next attack throw the weapon at a wall or something. This only works if you have an empty hand to catch the disarmed weapon. I was thinking about disarming with two handed weapons. You know, the classic two-handed sword swirl and toss or, better yet, a Heavy Flail snatching up the weapon and flinging it far and wide. CLEARLY, a new set of feats are needed in this category. Just about every other feat tree goes deeper except disarm. Time to get creative, WotC! :-)
StruckingFuggle 08-06-07, 04:07 PM	I have a solution! The throw anything feat in complete warrior. Disarm opponent, and on your next attack throw the weapon at a wall or something. why would you need Throw Anything (which is for weaponized throwing) to simply toss something away from you? If you pick up an apple, do you need a feat to chuck it away from you? Do you need a feat to lob it underhandedly towards your friend Bob? What about even if it's a dagger? Do you need a feat to just go "yeah, I don't want this" or "I don't want this to be near you" and toss it away? Now, if you wanted to peg a target with the point of the dagger, sure, but that's not what we're really talking about here. The Throw Anything feat is overkill for just that, and also requires making an attack. (though if you DO have it, you can throw a weapon - since it's not really "throw anything", only "throw weapon" - away from you, targeting a square. Which should allow you to get it to 50' rather easily in some cases, which IIRC would be the maximum distance you could reach). Now, tossing it away without touching their weapon with your hands (if both your hands are full or you don't want to use them), that might be worth a feat. MAYBE. Though it'd be better as one of the things you can do with a Tactical Feat, since it's kind of conditional and not too useful, it's too expensive at the cost of just "a feat", but if you roll it into a number of things ... Flinging Disarm, some sort of Cleaving Disarm, and something else... maybe.
MrCustomer 08-06-07, 04:56 PM	It depends on what weapon you are using. If you disarm a person with a club, then you are simply beating it out of their hand, if you are using a rapier then you are twisting it with a flick of your risk, if you are using a whip you are literally pulling it away from them. In this case I would say it's the DM's call. Say you wish to not only disarm your opponent but to send the weapon flying, I would suggest that you roll disarm like normal, but have to make it at a penelty to be able to fling the weapon out of reach. Your DM can decide an extra feat is required for this (flinging disarm) or not. here is an example. Blunt Weapons: -10 to disarm causing the weapon to fly out of reach Slashing/peircing Weapon: -6 Weapons that qualify for Weapon Finnese (rapier): -4 Whip: -2 (stacks with the +2 bonus) The Flinging Disarm Feat: Lowers the penelty to throw the opponent's weapon out of reach by 4 (minimum 0)
bolobaby 08-06-07, 05:42 PM	MrCustomer, Who is to say that I can't swirl my quarterstaff around in the same fashion as your rapier and fling your weapon away? Who is to say that clubbing the dagger out of your hand with a mace will somehow make it go less distance than wrapping it up in a flail? (In this case, I'd almost argue it might go farther.) By applying modifiers based on weapon type, I think you are needlessly complicating matters. Sure, it might make the system more realistic, but fun play is often about smooth play. Sometimes, less is more. Many weapons already have a bonus to disarm attempts based upon their physical design. You also get pluses and minuses based on the size of the weapon. I'd say leave it at that. So, with the existing bonuses in mind, all you need is a single feat that lets you put the disarmed weapon some distance away. Someone mentioned that there should be a clear path to the target square. I say "bleh." Again - needlessly complicated. I would say that you should need line of sight to the square and that's about it. If there is an intervening opponent or ally, assume that you flipped the weapon up over their heads. They also said that the weapon should land in an empty square. Again - why bother? If I was surrounded by creatures in every available square, couldn't I flip it up and over everyone's head, having the weapon fall in an occupied square? KISS. It's not "Improved", so it doesn't do damage - it just falls there at THAT character or creature's feet. Again - I'm just shocked that this hasn't been covered somewhere in Dragon or a splat book. Seems like a no-brainer...