Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Eothain 04-17-07, 10:03 AM	When I Take Nymph Kiss... the extra skill point at 1st level is multiplied by four? Like the racial Skill bonus of humans and those of intelligence?? About VoP... the exalted strike feature does also applies (in the case of a druid) to her Natural Weapons when wildshaped?. Are my claws attacks in form of a bear considered magic +1 on damages and attacks rolls?
Shadowhowler 04-17-07, 02:31 PM	I don't know about the skill point... As far as the ES goes, the way I read it, yes... however, you DM's opinion may vary.
Eothain 04-17-07, 03:00 PM	So Id not lose my benefit when wildshape and can multiply the Nymph kiss extra skill point x4, right??? What about Companion Spellbond? It state the my Share Spell extends to 30'! From SRD At the druid’s option, she may have any spell (but not any spell-like ability) she casts upon herself also affect her animal companion. The animal companion must be within 5 feet of her at the time of casting to receive the benefit. If the spell or effect has a duration other than instantaneous, it stops affecting the animal companion if the companion moves farther than 5 feet away and will not affect the animal again, even if it returns to the druid before the duration expires. So... I can cast Bulls Strenght even if my animal companion its 20 feet away from me, but it still get the benefits???
DarkRhystar 04-17-07, 03:05 PM	When I Take Nymph Kiss... the extra skill point at 1st level is multiplied by four? Like the racial Skill bonus of humans and those of intelligence?? No. You gain 1 skill point per level starting with the level you take the feat. You do not gain 4 skill points if you take this feat at 1st level. You do not gain skill points retroactively if you take this feat after 1st level.
Scion of Coldshard 04-17-07, 03:09 PM	If someone takes this feat, or a feat like it, at first level I have the skill points multiply. I do not see a good reason not to really and I like forcing the issue early on ;)
Shedeo 04-17-07, 03:15 PM	If someone in my game took the feat at first level, I'd count it like the Human racial ability. So +4 at first level, +1 every level thereafter.
Eothain 04-17-07, 04:01 PM	What about Companion Spellbond? It state the my Share Spell extends to 30'! So... I can cast Bulls Strenght even if my animal companion its 20 feet away from me, but it still get the benefits??? Also... will be worth it to take a level of warshaper??? Gaining immunities to critical hits and increasing damage of natural weapon as move action??
Eothain 04-17-07, 09:24 PM	WHat does cheese mean?
runestar 04-17-07, 10:12 PM	It is that odd smell which inexplicably permeates the room when a dm allows the skill points granted by nymph's kiss to be multipled by 4 at first lv...:P Personally, I do not see why it should be multiplied(I refuse to buy into that "so he can max out a skill" argument), though the final call is still up to your dm.:)
Shadowhowler 04-17-07, 10:27 PM	WHat does cheese mean? That guy went on a forum spaming ramapage... they removed most of his threads... but there are still a few around. Very annoying.
Scion of Coldshard 04-18-07, 12:02 AM	Personally, I do not see why it should be multiplied(I refuse to buy into that "so he can max out a skill" argument), though the final call is still up to your dm.:) For the same reason that the humans is multiplied at first level?
Jaxgaret 04-18-07, 12:12 AM	For the same reason that the humans is multiplied at first level? Humans are humans from the day they are born. A character with the Nymph's kiss feat didn't start boffing their Feyfriend until well after their birth. Probably. So, no extra skill points at 1st level.
runestar 04-18-07, 12:14 AM	4 extra skill points at 1st level and 1 extra skill point at each additional level. The human's bonus skill point is not so much multiplied at 1st lv. Rather, it explicitly states that it gets 4 extra skill points at 1st lv, as a special exception to it typically getting just 1 extra skill point each lv thereafter. I do not recall nymph's kiss getting a similar special treatment...:confused:
DarkRhystar 04-18-07, 01:12 AM	I do not recall nymph's kiss getting a similar special treatment...:confused: That's because it doesn't. What we have here is a terminal case of "Wishful Thinking" which will eventually transition into "Broken Hearted-ness" and then evolve into either "Lying and Cheating" or "Crushing Despair" based upon the relevant intelligence score (DM's that is).
Drachasor 04-18-07, 01:23 AM	That's because it doesn't. What we have here is a terminal case of "Wishful Thinking" which will eventually transition into "Broken Hearted-ness" and then evolve into either "Lying and Cheating" or "Crushing Despair" based upon the relevant intelligence score (DM's that is). Dude, don't get so worked up over 3 skill points. Personally I'd let the player have them, but I'd not cause any significant fuss if my DM told me "no." Unless he did it like Ted Stevens. -Drachasor
Drachasor 04-18-07, 01:27 AM	Humans are humans from the day they are born. A character with the Nymph's kiss feat didn't start boffing their Feyfriend until well after their birth. Probably. So, no extra skill points at 1st level. No Boffing is necessary, just the affection/love of a Nymph. If the PC was raised by a Nymph and had a semi-incestuous relationship with her (she's extra Chaotic that way), would you give them 4 skill points then? -Drachasor
DarkRhystar 04-18-07, 02:01 AM	Dude, don't get so worked up over 3 skill points. No one is getting worked up (though my last post may have needed more smileys :P ). Personally I'd let the player have them, but I'd not cause any significant fuss if my DM told me "no." Unless he did it like Ted Stevens. Why? You said it yourself, it's only 3 skill points, so why break the rules for just 3 skill points?
Drachasor 04-18-07, 02:14 AM	Why? You said it yourself, it's only 3 skill points, so why break the rules for just 3 skill points? A lot of characters generally get too few skill points, imho, anyhow. 3 won't hurt anything, and it would make the player a bit happier. So if it just helps people have fun (even if only a little bit more), then why not? It also seems more in tune with the general principle that all characters have 4 times the normal skill points at 1st level. So there's a synergy to letting the player have the 3 more skill points. It's not like it can get exploited in any real way. -Drachasor
Shadowhowler 04-18-07, 03:13 AM	I would not give them the extra skill points at first. Not cuz it's overpowered, not cuz it 'breaks' anything... but just becuase the feat does not read that way, I don't belive it was intended that way, it gives other benifits in addition to skill points, so it's well rounded enough allready without buffing it, and lastly, becuase there is no real reason to change it from the way it was ment to work. I houserule as much as the next guy... actually, I houserule way more then the next guy, but only when I feel it's needed. Don't see the need here.
Eothain 04-18-07, 06:37 AM	Ok, I get it... not x4 skill point! Not big deal, my ride skill wont be great ;) On the other hand... all of you consider that my natural attacks when wildshape will get the benefits of Exalted Strike???
runestar 04-18-07, 06:42 AM	What does the ability do? Since VOP is ultimately a feat, its benefits should carry over to wildshape. So your new natural attacks should benefit accordingly.
Nicholas the Paladin 04-18-07, 06:50 AM	What about Companion Spellbond? It state the my Share Spell extends to 30'! So... I can cast Bulls Strenght even if my animal companion its 20 feet away from me, but it still get the benefits??? that's how this feats work, yes. But it doens't work that way with bullsstrength: the +4 gets'divided between the druid and his companion. A +4 to AC however does apply to both. I don't know where this is found, but our Druid found it out in our previous group
Eothain 04-18-07, 07:44 AM	Bonus divided? According to SRD the share spell ability allows to target your animal companion even if that spell cant be cast on animals or even if has a target or personal...the way I understand it is that the effect applies on both, but not get divided... my question about the feat is that I dont fully understand how does it works, because it also say that I can cast a touch spell as a range close spell... and that confuses me.
Drachasor 04-18-07, 08:02 AM	that's how this feats work, yes. But it doens't work that way with bullsstrength: the +4 gets'divided between the druid and his companion. A +4 to AC however does apply to both. I don't know where this is found, but our Druid found it out in our previous group You both get a +4 Strength bonus from Bull's Strength. The only exception I have ever seen to full sharing is with healing spells. If a spell heals X damage, then you divide up X between yourself and your companion. That's what the Sage has said anyhow. (So if you heal 9 damage with a spell, you can have your animal healed for 3 and heal yourself for 6, but you can't both be healed for 9 with that one spell)*. -Drachasor *Note that the Vigor spells give you Fast Healing, so you'd both get the full amount of fast healing from them. That makes them a much better deal if you are both damaged.
Eothain 04-18-07, 09:11 AM	What kind of spells can I share? All spells available??? Thats the part I dont understand very well
D-Dus 04-18-07, 10:18 AM	What kind of spells can I share? All spells available??? Thats the part I dont understand very well Any spell that you can cast on yourself. So yeah, basically any spell you can cast that has a target (ofcourse it wouldn't be useful to cast a targeted damage spell on yourself, but that's obvious :P).
Scion of Coldshard 04-18-07, 10:34 AM	Humans are humans from the day they are born. A character with the Nymph's kiss feat didn't start boffing their Feyfriend until well after their birth. Probably. A sexual relationship is not necissarily required ;) Besides, skill points are given by the class you choose and after you choose that they all get multiplied. I have a hard time figuring out why every other source of skill points that you have at first level is multiplied but this one is not. Taking the feat at first level cuts off and/or delays other options. Plus it makes for a nice addition to the backstory. I think that giving the extra skill points just makes it fit in line with the rules already present along with making it a more attractive option for a player which can help me as a dm. It is a win/win! Ok, I get it... not x4 skill point! Not big deal, my ride skill wont be great Dont let them get to you Eothain! ;) Just get the extra 3 skill points, make sure your dm understands the reasoning.. if he is a nice guy he will let you have them.
Jaxgaret 04-18-07, 11:32 AM	Besides, skill points are given by the class you choose and after you choose that they all get multiplied. I have a hard time figuring out why every other source of skill points that you have at first level is multiplied but this one is not. There is a feat called Open Minded that grants 5 extra skill points. If a character takes this feat at 1st level, will you give them 20 skill points instead of 5?
Scion of Coldshard 04-18-07, 11:36 AM	There is a feat called Open Minded that grants 5 extra skill points. If a character takes this feat at 1st level, will you give them 20 skill points instead of 5? You mean kindof like how vow of poverty takes 2 feats to get there but can give you 11 back? Immediate benefit vs long term benefit. And yeah, feats that can only be taken at first level are usually a bit stronger than other feats. In this case the feat may be taken later but you only get the big benefit if you take it at first level, and really you only get most of the benefits if you take it as early as possible anyway. Two very different things. As a side example lets say you want to splash a multiclass. At some point you take this extra class and if you had taken nymphs kiss you would get 1 extra skill point to use on the new skills but if you take open minded right now you can possibly max out the new skill quickly so that you dont have to worry about it anymore, 5 ranks immediately is enough to hit the synergy bonus at least. Two different feats that are similar but have different uses. Although, with that said, I certainly would not mind open minded to be a little bit stronger.
Drachasor 04-18-07, 11:39 AM	There is a feat called Open Minded that grants 5 extra skill points. If a character takes this feat at 1st level, will you give them 20 skill points instead of 5? Open Mind doesn't give you 1 skill point every level. Nymph's Kiss clearly functions just like the human racial skill bonus or having a intelligence that is 2 higher. At least this is clear at all levels except for level 1. I would merely say that there's no good reason not to rule it works the same in all cases.
DarkRhystar 04-18-07, 12:00 PM	Open Mind doesn't give you 1 skill point every level. Nymph's Kiss clearly functions just like the human racial skill bonus or having a intelligence that is 2 higher. At least this is clear at all levels except for level 1. I would merely say that there's no good reason not to rule it works the same in all cases. What about the fact that the feat doesn't say it works that way? What about the fact that even before level 5 the feat is far stronger than most normal feats? It is a strong feat and doesn't need a house rule to make it even stronger.
Scion of Coldshard 04-18-07, 12:02 PM	It is a strong feat and doesn't need a house rule to make it even stronger. It is a very strong feat, but ruling this way does not add much power to it at all. I would suggest modifying the part that is incredibly powerful instead of toying with the bit that is a fairly minor bit.
DarkRhystar 04-18-07, 12:05 PM	It is a very strong feat, but ruling this way does not add much power to it at all. But why does it need a house rule to make it even more powerful?
Scion of Coldshard 04-18-07, 12:09 PM	But why does it need a house rule to make it even more powerful? Given that you can pick up the feat before the multiplication I do not see it as a houserule. It is merely a place where they forgot a specific point of reminder text that they usually put in everywhere ;)
DarkRhystar 04-18-07, 12:12 PM	Given that you can pick up the feat before the multiplication I do not see it as a houserule. It is merely a place where they forgot a specific point of reminder text that they usually put in everywhere ;) What makes you say that they forgot it? If they had really meant to have the points multiplied why wouldn't they have just said "Your intelligence score is treated as though it were 2 points higher for the purpose of determining skill points gained each level." That would have been a simple way of wording exactly what you want. But they didn't do it that way. They worded it specifically so you get 1 skill point per level and only 1. What makes you think they forgot anything?
Zherog 04-18-07, 12:18 PM	You both get a +4 Strength bonus from Bull's Strength. The only exception I have ever seen to full sharing is with healing spells. If a spell heals X damage, then you divide up X between yourself and your companion. That's what the Sage has said anyhow. (So if you heal 9 damage with a spell, you can have your animal healed for 3 and heal yourself for 6, but you can't both be healed for 9 with that one spell)*. Got a source link and quote for that? I've never seen it (or if I've seen it, it failed to make enough of an impression on me) As far as I know, the share spells ability (both for animal companions and familiars) duplicates the spell effect for every targeted spell the caster casts on himself.
Scion of Coldshard 04-18-07, 12:19 PM	What makes you say that they forgot it? Because if they had remembered it then it would be there? It likely would have been best if they had said specifically either way. They could have said, 'You get 1 extra skill point each level. This bonus is/is not multiplied by 4 at first level' or something equivalent. If they had really meant to have the points multiplied why wouldn't they have just said "Your intelligence score is treated as though it were 2 points higher for the purpose of determining skill points gained each level." You mean like they did for humans? Oh.. wait...
Scion of Coldshard 04-18-07, 12:20 PM	Got a source link and quote for that? I've never seen it (or if I've seen it, it failed to make enough of an impression on me) As far as I know, the share spells ability (both for animal companions and familiars) duplicates the spell effect for every targeted spell the caster casts on himself. The sage makes up rules sometimes. It is generally best to ignore him.
DarkRhystar 04-18-07, 12:23 PM	Because if they had remembered it then it would be there? So... you can go back in time and read the developer's minds? Cool. You mean like they did for humans? Oh.. wait... Pointing out Humans is pretty ironic. If the developers had wanted it to give 4x skill points at level 1, wouldn't they have explicitly worded it like that? You know, like they did with Humans. :P
Scion of Coldshard 04-18-07, 12:25 PM	So... you can go back in time and read the developer's minds? Good thing for me I didnt make this statement. Of course that doesnt stop people from making up strawmen about it :( Pointing Humans is pretty ironic. I dont think that word means what you think it means. And hey look at that, they remembered the reminder text there but forgot it elsewhere. That is too bad. Hopefully they will do a better job with nymphs kiss when it is reprinted ;)
DarkRhystar 04-18-07, 12:32 PM	I dont think that word means what you think it means. Hm? And hey look at that, they remembered the reminder text there but forgot it elsewhere. That is too bad. Hopefully they will do a better job with nymphs kiss when it is reprinted ;) Reminder text? What is that? By the way, you still haven't given a convincing argument for why the DM should make a house rule to make a powerful feat even more powerful. ;)
Zherog 04-18-07, 12:44 PM	The sage makes up rules sometimes. It is generally best to ignore him. I'm well aware that Andy (and Skip before him) make up stuff. Doesn't mean I don't want to see the quote, though.
Scion of Coldshard 04-18-07, 12:52 PM	Reminder text? What is that? Text that is already covered by a rule but they mention it anyway in some/most cases. It happens a lot but is not universally in place. By the way, you still haven't given a convincing argument for why the DM should make a house rule to make a powerful feat even more powerful. As I have proposed no real houserules I fail to see why I would need to make an arguement for one. I could see a dm choosing to rule either way due to lack of evidence of either side of the issue and I do not see it adding much of any power to the feat. I would again recomend toning down the bits that are incredibly poweful rather than chopping off the benign part.
Scion of Coldshard 04-18-07, 12:55 PM	I'm well aware that Andy (and Skip before him) make up stuff. Doesn't mean I don't want to see the quote, though. I understand, it might be similar to why the moth likes that candle flame so very, very much.... ;) Just playing, no worries. I would like if he gave more detailed answers and explained his reasonings though.
DarkRhystar 04-18-07, 01:04 PM	As I have proposed no real houserules I fail to see why I would need to make an arguement for one. Oh I'm sorry, we're still assuming you can read the developer's minds and know exactly what they intended to write but didn't. I thought we were past that. I could see a dm choosing to rule either way due to lack of evidence of either side of the issue and I do not see it adding much of any power to the feat. Lack of evidence? The only evidence you need is the description of the feat. It does what it says it does, no more, no less. I would again recomend toning down the bits that are incredibly poweful rather than chopping off the benign part. Because an ability that grants FOUR TIMES the benefits of another feat by level 20 is such a benign part. And that's only a 3rd of what the feat does...
Scion of Coldshard 04-18-07, 01:40 PM	Oh I'm sorry, we're still assuming you can read the developer's minds and know exactly what they intended to write but didn't. Why are you trying so hard to be insulting? Why do you keep on making up strawmen? Any chance you could stop doing both of these things? Lack of evidence? The only evidence you need is the description of the feat. Which does not say one way or the other. So I look to other parts of the rules and everything else that gives you skill points each level gets multiplied at first. So, it looks like the default is the multiplication. Looks pretty vaild to me. Because an ability that grants FOUR TIMES the benefits of another feat by level 20 is such a benign part. You are ignoring the costs and the time involved. One is immediate, gives a bigger bonus on a per level basis, and has lesser restrictions. The other happens over a long period of time, many levels, and has extra restrictions. Toughness gives +3 hp, Improved toughness gives +1hp/hd. For levels 1 and 2 toughness gives more hp, at 3rd they are tied, and from then on improved toughness is better. Nymphs kiss is not even up to those lines however since skill points are not retroactive. If you do not take it at first you are not going to get nearly as many skill points as you would otherwise. In fact, you might never even get up to 5 skill points out of it because you did not gain enough levels after picking it up. Open minded does not have that limitation. And that's only a 3rd of what the feat does Already covered in other posts.
DarkRhystar 04-18-07, 01:51 PM	Why are you trying so hard to be insulting? Why do you keep on making up strawmen? Any chance you could stop doing both of these things? Sorry, but I just really don't like the "developers meant to do X instead of what they wrote" style arguments. They're so shallow that it just warrants a little condescension. Sorry 'bout offending you. :) Which does not say one way or the other. So I look to other parts of the rules and everything else that gives you skill points each level gets multiplied at first. So, it looks like the default is the multiplication. Looks pretty vaild to me. But the feat mentions nothing of multiplication. Even the Human racial ability doesn't involve multiplication; it gives a straight up +4 skill points at level 1. Nymph's Kiss doesn't even do that. You are ignoring the costs and the time involved. Umm... did you read what you quoted? Did you read the "by level 20" part? Are you sure? Nymphs kiss is not even up to those lines however since skill points are not retroactive. If you do not take it at first you are not going to get nearly as many skill points as you would otherwise. Unlike Improved Toughness, Nymph's Kiss has no prerequisites aside from that which it gains as an Exalted feat. It can be taken at level 1. Already covered in other posts. No it's not. When you get pressured you immediately turn to "Well you should be fixing the other parts of the feat" and that's a bit of a cop out that really doesn't cover anything.
Drachasor 04-18-07, 01:52 PM	I'm well aware that Andy (and Skip before him) make up stuff. Doesn't mean I don't want to see the quote, though. And here it is (though I don't think it is the first time he's said this): When the familiar and the master share a spell, they function as one being where the spell's effects are concerned. For example, if the master chooses to share a teleport spell with his familiar, the familiar doesn't count toward the spell's creature limit. Likewise, if the master shares a water breathing spell with his familiar, the familiar shares the master's portion of the spell's duration and does not count as another creature touched. A shared mirror image spell creates duplicates of both the master and the familiar, and a successful hit on either the master's or the familiar's image eliminates one duplicate master and one duplicate familiar. A shared protection from energy spell shields both the master and the familiar, but all energy damage that either the familiar or the master suffers is deducted from the total amount of energy the spell can absorb. In spite of the foregoing, some aspects of the master and familiar always remain distinct. The master and familiar have two separate pools of hit points. If the master casts a cure wounds spell, the hit points bestowed must go either to the master or to the familiar. If points are left over after the chosen recipient reaches full hit points, the excess can go to the other pool. In a similar fashion, the master and familiar both have their own ability scores, and magic that enhances or improves an ability score must all go to either the master or the familiar. from the Rules of the Game article on Familiars (share spells is the same for both familiars and animal companions though, so it should apply to both). I see where he is coming from (Share Spells doesn't say the spell effect is duplicated for the companion, just that it "also affects" the animal companion). Seems like the Sage feels full sharing is overpowered, but I don't think it really is. Rather, Animal Companions are perhaps a little too potent, but this is especially so given everything else the Druid has. It's still a rather small nerf, in my experience playing a Druid. Anyhow, here's a link to the article: http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20050913a
Jaxgaret 04-18-07, 01:56 PM	Humans * Medium: As Medium creatures, humans have no special bonuses or penalties due to their size. * Human base land speed is 30 feet. * 1 extra feat at 1st level. * 4 extra skill points at 1st level and 1 extra skill point at each additional level. * Automatic Language: Common. Bonus Languages: Any (other than secret languages, such as Druidic). See the Speak Language skill. * Favored Class: Any. When determining whether a multiclass human takes an experience point penalty, his or her highest-level class does not count. So a Human should really be getting 16 extra skill points at 1st level, because we need to multiply extra 1st level skill points by 4, right? /sarcasm
Scion of Coldshard 04-18-07, 01:57 PM	Sorry, but I just really don't like the "developers meant to do X instead of what they wrote" style arguments. Then, yet again, it is good I did not make that arguement. I said that they forgot but it could also be that they assumed it would be obvious that it would work that way or who knows what else. Frankly, I dont care what they were thinking, I just know that as written it is valid to say that it is multiplied based on the rest of the ruleset. But the feat mentions nothing of multiplication. I said this earlier actually. Umm... did you read what you quoted. Did you read the "by level 20" part? Are you sure? And if you took the feat at level 18? Unlike Improved Toughness, Nymph's Kiss has no prerequisites aside from that which it gains as an Exalted feat. It can be taken at level 1. So we have the exalted prereq, plus having to have a fey character associated to the character in some way that has the power to withdraw the feat. Sounds like several built in prereqs and continuing conditions. Woo! No it's not. Yes, it was actually. Glad we could cover that yet again as well. When you get pressured you immediately turn to "Well you should be fixing the other parts of the feat" and that's a bit of a cop out that really doesn't cover anything. Which means that your answer of 'no its not' was wrong and you knew it was wrong because you already saw how it was covered in other posts. This feat has multiple parts and I am discussing one of them. If you bring in what else it does to complain about its power level to me and somehow try to make that apply to my arguement I am going to call shenanigans because you are applying something that is completely seperate to what I am saying. I suppose I could bring up the aoo rules to discount your feelings on exalted if you like. It would have just as much bearing on the topic as your comments about the power level of the feat in its other aspects does on my topic.
Drachasor 04-18-07, 01:59 PM	So a Human should really be getting 16 extra skill points at 1st level, because we need to multiply extra 1st level skill points by 4, right? /sarcasm No need to pretend to be obtuse about the spirit of the mechanic at work. With all things that give you +X skill points per level, you get 4X skill points at first level. That's how it is with humans, intelligence, and class skill points. Nymph's Kiss is the only other thing that gives you more skill points each level.
Jaxgaret 04-18-07, 02:19 PM	No need to pretend to be obtuse about the spirit of the mechanic at work. With all things that give you +X skill points per level, you get 4X skill points at first level. That's how it is with humans, intelligence, and class skill points. Nymph's Kiss is the only other thing that gives you more skill points each level. With three things that exist that give a character +X skill points per level, the character gets +4X sp at first level. And two of those are part of the same mechanic (Int skill bonus and class skill points). That hardly constitutes a canon. Humans are the separate one, and they state unequivocally that a Human gains 4 extra skill points at first level. And, as I stated before, a Human is a Human from the day they are born. A character with the Nymph's Kiss feat gains the benefit of that feat well after they are born, and thus would gain less from that feat by the time they reach first level - i.e. by only gaining one extra skill point at level 1 as opposed to 4 skill points. So I have both a rules-based AND an intention/flavor-based reason for it to only grant 1 extra skill point at level 1. What's the problem? Also, since we're arguing from an intention-based perspective, I read that feat and it screams sexual relationship. Everything about it. The name. The words "intimate relationship" which are completely out of character for a description of a feat. The fact that the Fey they mention are a Nymph and a Dryad, two sexualized feminine forms. The fact that all Fey now treat you as one of their own, which denotes partnership with the Fey you are intimately related with. I understand that it can be otherwise, but from an intention standpoint, it seems pretty clear to me, IMHO. So that also potentially counters the "raised by Fey" argument.
Zherog 04-18-07, 03:06 PM	And here it is (though I don't think it is the first time he's said this): >>Snippy McSnip Was Here!<< Thanks for digging it out. Skip Williams is no longer the sage (though he was one of the original designers of 3rd edition). I personally believe he's wrong - but I guess it's just personal opinion.
Shadowhowler 04-18-07, 04:46 PM	The sage makes up rules sometimes. It is generally best to ignore him. Right... we should ignore him, and instead listen to YOU. Uh huh. Sorry dude... I don't think it's overpowered to give them the extra 3 skill points, I just don't think it is at ALL needed, nor implied by the discription of the feat. Sugesting that people alter what the feat actauly DOES say it does in it's discription to make the feat less powerfull rather then not having it do something is does NOT say it does in its discription is a very strange argument to me. In the end, it's just 3 skill points and does not really matter... but I do find your interpritation to be at least a little bit suspect, and your unwillings to even consider you might be wrong to be a little bull headed. I'd sugest you ask Custsev but I'm sure you would say 'Well, I know better then them, I know better then the sage, I know better then everyone' so what would be the point? If your a DM, and you want to work it this way... cool, DM's always have the say as to how anything works. However, I belive it *IS* a house rule... cuz your having the feat do something it does not say it does.
Eothain 04-18-07, 04:46 PM	Thank you!!! I guess i can fight for those three points... but i can live without them likewise because they will be my ride ranks! :P I guess everything is clear.
Scion of Coldshard 04-18-07, 05:07 PM	Right... we should ignore him, and instead listen to YOU. The sage is often proven wrong and likes to make up rules pretty much wholecloth. If you choose to believe him in everything that he says then you are going to have a lot of issues with people who actually follow the rules. Any reason you are feeling so derisive? It really isnt helpful. I don't think it's overpowered to give them the extra 3 skill points, I just don't think it is at ALL needed Needed? nope. Nice, flavorful, and fitting in with the rest of the system? Yep! It isnt needed for toughness to give 3hp either, it could give 2, or 1, or even 0. It isnt needed to actually buy the d&d books to play it. It isnt even needed to play with all of the rules therein. I have no idea what your point is but of course it isnt needed, very few things really are. In the end, it's just 3 skill points and does not really matter Then you probably shouldnt be making a big deal about it. your unwillings to even consider you might be wrong Ahh.. so you have not actually read my posts. That is unfortunate :( I would suggest that you go back and do so. I'd sugest you ask Custsev but I'm sure you would say 'Well, I know better then them, I know better then the sage, I know better then everyone' so what would be the point? Actually I would say that custservs reputation for getting things blatantly wrong with incredible regularity renders anything they say obsolete. From what I have seen this is a pretty well held belief amoung many people and for good reason.
Scion of Coldshard 04-18-07, 05:08 PM	Thank you!!! I guess i can fight for those three points... but i can live without them likewise because they will be my ride ranks! :P I guess everything is clear. No worries ;) Just ask your dm and find out which way he wants to go. That is usually what it comes down to anyway.
runestar 04-18-07, 09:38 PM	While that extra 3 skill points is nice as it allows you to maintain 1 additional maxed skill, that would be exactly the reason why I would not allow it. To see the player with an extra skill 3 points below the max cap...:P Sorry, its just me...:embarrass
nameneeded 04-19-07, 07:48 PM	No one does not get x4 SP's for Nymphs Kiss. Skills are chosen BEFORE feats. Thats why they are listed before feats.Which is why you get extra SP's for being human.
BluEnigma 04-19-07, 08:58 PM	Meh. I'd allow the extra 3 skillpoints just because it makes the calculations easer. You can max 1 more skill. Simple.
Sarrazon 04-19-07, 09:39 PM	No one does not get x4 SP's for Nymphs Kiss. Skills are chosen BEFORE feats. Thats why they are listed before feats.Which is why you get extra SP's for being human. You can. You don't have to. I often jump around while making my characters.
DarkRhystar 04-19-07, 09:45 PM	You can. You don't have to. I often jump around while making my characters. No you can't. PHB pages 58 and 59 detail the order in which you take your level. Skills are step 6 and Feats are step 7.
runestar 04-19-07, 10:15 PM	You can. You don't have to. I often jump around while making my characters. You are free to change around the order however you like. But that does not really change how the rules interact for discussion purposes, IIRC. Sadly, this also means the education feat is useless...:(
Lord_of_Rivendell 10-11-07, 02:24 PM	Interestingly enough, my DM has read the Nymph's Kiss language "you gain 1 extra skill point per level" to mean that at first level you get 1 additional skill point, at fourth level you get 4 extra skill points, at sixth level you get 6 extra skill points, and so on. He said that had it been intended that you get an (as in 1) extra skill point at each level it would have said "you gain 1 extra skill point at each level." Thus, according to him, my sixth level human druid, who took Sacred Vow, Vow of Poverty, and Nymph's Kiss at first level has earned an additional 21 skill points (1 + 2 + 3 + 4 + 5 + 6, each earned at its respective level) so far. Although, this was not my initial reading of the language, I think he makes a tenable point and have not argued. LoR