On the back of a Black Dragon Dracolich... [Archive] - Wizards Community

On the back of a Black Dragon Dracolich... [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Lanathan
04-29-07, 09:44 PM Today, my group encountered a Gargantuan Black Dragon Dracolich that was flying above them using the Hover skill and launching spells & using its breath weapon. The partys ranged abilities are nothing compared to their melee, so 2 members decided that they would teleport up onto the back of the hovering dragon. That same round the dragon cast Acid Sheath on itself. The dragon is hovering almost 200ft in the air at the moment, but can move at anytime, what do you feel are appropriate skill checks or saves for this situation? Thankfully this all happened just as our session was ending, I was real unsure what the DCs should be set at or even what checks it should be. Strength? Climb? Any input is welcome and as always thank you for your time.
bobothechimp
04-29-07, 10:20 PM Ride checks, with various situational bonuses and penalties for you to decide.
calvinNhobbes
04-29-07, 10:38 PM Ride checks, with various situational bonuses and penalties for you to decide.

I disagree with Ride checks. That would imply the creature is an ally that is letting you control it.

For a hostile creature I would use a combination of Balance checks and reflex saves.
I think the balance DC should be dependent on what the dragon does. Stays hovering: DC 10, Flies around: DC 15, Tries to shake them off: DC 20.
If they fail the Balance check by 4 or less, then they can't take an action that turn.
If they fail by 5 or more, they fall and must make a DC 15 reflex save to catch themselves, and a DC 15 climb check to pull themselves back up. They must then make another balance check to stand up.
StruckingFuggle
04-30-07, 12:19 AM Hm. And can the Dragon hit them with any attacks while they're there? And what if it flips over and does a barrel roll?
Novacat
04-30-07, 12:42 AM I would call for grapple checks. If the PCs succeed, they can try to bring the dragon down, but if they fail, they're thrown off. This makes the acid sheath that much more treacherous.
Derren S.
04-30-07, 02:24 AM Ok, first the PCs have to make saves to not be paralyzed when touching the dracolich (imo). If they are paralyzed it would mean instant falling damage.

If they manage to stay on top of the draclich, let the dragon simply dimension door away to the casters and let those to melee characters fall down for sweet 20d6 damage.

Grapple would not work as the dracolich is probably too big for that. So I would use balance checks like Calvin said except that when the dragon tries to shake them off it should be a opposed roll BAB vs. Balance.

PS: i don't even think that teleport could be used to do this. Teleport is used for transportation to memorized location, not to transport to a moving target. They probably need dimension door instead.
StevenO
04-30-07, 07:25 PM Grapple checks to see if they can hang on. It may be big but if any creature wants you off you're going to have to do alot just to hang on. If the grapple is failed I may allow a reflex save as well to keep from falling off but it isn't going to be easy.
Darknight303
05-01-07, 01:18 PM You can't grapple something that is two sizes larger than you are. Grappling should be out of the question entirely
Ulandorf_TheBlue
05-01-07, 03:38 PM How about climb check to initiate "climbing aboard" or "hanging on" once teleported with a low DC like 10 (probably not hard to find something to hold on to...but could be situational). Then if tries to shake you off it rolls a grapple check opposed by your climb check.

This is similar to the "climb aboard" ability in the tactical feat: Giantsbane in CW. Fits pretty nice I think, and it makes sense. Instead of you literally climbing aboard, you teleport on its back (or dimension door I guess).
Derren S.
05-01-07, 04:12 PM Like Darknight said, grapple does not work because of the size and thus should not be used. Imo use balance instead.
calvinNhobbes
05-01-07, 04:21 PM How about climb check to initiate "climbing aboard" or "hanging on" once teleported with a low DC like 10 (probably not hard to find something to hold on to...but could be situational)
I think the DC should be higher than 10. From the climb skill:
DC10 = A surface with ledges to hold on to and stand on, such as a very rough wall or a ship’s rigging.
I think climbing dragon scales would be DC 15 or higher.
Darknight303
05-01-07, 04:32 PM You can't grapple it but it can make checks against you
Angus Cotton
05-01-07, 07:44 PM This is similar to the "climb aboard" ability in the tactical feat: Giantsbane in CW. Fits pretty nice I think, and it makes sense. Instead of you literally climbing aboard, you teleport on its back (or dimension door I guess).

Ya, but remember that the PCs don't have the feat. If you are going to allow them to make a tactical stunt without actually having the feat, at least make the check a hell of a lot higher? Gargantuan Black Dragon Dracolich? I say DC 40 Clinb check.

Then there are all the really good points that Derren S. made...
Angus Cotton
05-01-07, 08:12 PM Ok, first the PCs have to make saves to not be paralyzed when touching the dracolich (imo). If they are paralyzed it would mean instant falling damage.

Point noted, Derren is right on; they have to touch the dragon and thus have to save vs. paralysis. The players might say something cheesy like, "I got really thick boots," but that still does not explain how they hold on (assuming you have to touch the dragon with your hands to actually hold on).

If they manage to stay on top of the draclich, let the dragon simply dimension door away to the casters and let those to melee characters fall down for sweet 20d6 damage.

Point two noted, really this isn't the end of it. There are really a number of wickedly horrible things that the dragon can do at this point to the players. Technically, you should no even try to fight a dragon out in the open if they have movement advantage. If you can outfly them, then it might be worth it to try, but if he can outfly you you are boned.

PS: i don't even think that teleport could be used to do this. Teleport is used for transportation to memorized location, not to transport to a moving target. They probably need dimension door instead.

Point three noted. While I do not think your DM was wrong in allowing a teleport to the back of a dragon, he certainly stretched definition of what qualifies as a 'destination' (Is the back of a dracolich a "destination", I mean?). Still, if the players had done this in my game, I would have probably allowed it too, as the thought to me seems so crazy, I would want to know what the hell they think they were doing (I would let them play out their tactic).

Why they chose to teleport in the first place seems crazy as mentioned, I mean, they can cast teleport, so why not cast "Fly"? Porting to the dracolich gives the dracolich battlefield control....he decides where the two players go now, lest thye cast some other spell. D-Door is just one of the many things he can do to counter this. What about just simply flying into a lake or the ocean (sucks if they are in metal armor)? flying higher? flying into orbit? diving toward the ground and sandwiching the party between the weight of the dracolich and the flatness of the ground at full force? Have him fly over to a volcano, then shaking the party off? or simply just flying far enough away with the two party members, effectively taking the rest of the party out of the fight (kind of a divide and conquer strat)?

Your best bet in this situation is just to run. If you encounter a dragon out in the open, just run. You want to take him in an area he is confined in, where it is hard for him to just simply fly away--his lair for example. Course, that presents a whole new set of challenges, such as traps and minions, but at least when you finally do fight him, he will only have hometurf advantage and not battlefield control.
Izzak
05-01-07, 08:48 PM Hes a dracolich right, heck D-door inside him. Nothings working in there right. Hack and slash the old organs and then you have all day and night to try to kill him. And the dragon will hate itself and try to tear you out, i bet hurting himself a great deal in the process. Just a odd ball idea:lightbulb

edit
I do apologize for my out there comments.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Lanathan 04-29-07, 09:44 PM	Today, my group encountered a Gargantuan Black Dragon Dracolich that was flying above them using the Hover skill and launching spells & using its breath weapon. The partys ranged abilities are nothing compared to their melee, so 2 members decided that they would teleport up onto the back of the hovering dragon. That same round the dragon cast Acid Sheath on itself. The dragon is hovering almost 200ft in the air at the moment, but can move at anytime, what do you feel are appropriate skill checks or saves for this situation? Thankfully this all happened just as our session was ending, I was real unsure what the DCs should be set at or even what checks it should be. Strength? Climb? Any input is welcome and as always thank you for your time.
bobothechimp 04-29-07, 10:20 PM	Ride checks, with various situational bonuses and penalties for you to decide.
calvinNhobbes 04-29-07, 10:38 PM	Ride checks, with various situational bonuses and penalties for you to decide. I disagree with Ride checks. That would imply the creature is an ally that is letting you control it. For a hostile creature I would use a combination of Balance checks and reflex saves. I think the balance DC should be dependent on what the dragon does. Stays hovering: DC 10, Flies around: DC 15, Tries to shake them off: DC 20. If they fail the Balance check by 4 or less, then they can't take an action that turn. If they fail by 5 or more, they fall and must make a DC 15 reflex save to catch themselves, and a DC 15 climb check to pull themselves back up. They must then make another balance check to stand up.
StruckingFuggle 04-30-07, 12:19 AM	Hm. And can the Dragon hit them with any attacks while they're there? And what if it flips over and does a barrel roll?
Novacat 04-30-07, 12:42 AM	I would call for grapple checks. If the PCs succeed, they can try to bring the dragon down, but if they fail, they're thrown off. This makes the acid sheath that much more treacherous.
Derren S. 04-30-07, 02:24 AM	Ok, first the PCs have to make saves to not be paralyzed when touching the dracolich (imo). If they are paralyzed it would mean instant falling damage. If they manage to stay on top of the draclich, let the dragon simply dimension door away to the casters and let those to melee characters fall down for sweet 20d6 damage. Grapple would not work as the dracolich is probably too big for that. So I would use balance checks like Calvin said except that when the dragon tries to shake them off it should be a opposed roll BAB vs. Balance. PS: i don't even think that teleport could be used to do this. Teleport is used for transportation to memorized location, not to transport to a moving target. They probably need dimension door instead.
StevenO 04-30-07, 07:25 PM	Grapple checks to see if they can hang on. It may be big but if any creature wants you off you're going to have to do alot just to hang on. If the grapple is failed I may allow a reflex save as well to keep from falling off but it isn't going to be easy.
Darknight303 05-01-07, 01:18 PM	You can't grapple something that is two sizes larger than you are. Grappling should be out of the question entirely
Ulandorf_TheBlue 05-01-07, 03:38 PM	How about climb check to initiate "climbing aboard" or "hanging on" once teleported with a low DC like 10 (probably not hard to find something to hold on to...but could be situational). Then if tries to shake you off it rolls a grapple check opposed by your climb check. This is similar to the "climb aboard" ability in the tactical feat: Giantsbane in CW. Fits pretty nice I think, and it makes sense. Instead of you literally climbing aboard, you teleport on its back (or dimension door I guess).
Derren S. 05-01-07, 04:12 PM	Like Darknight said, grapple does not work because of the size and thus should not be used. Imo use balance instead.
calvinNhobbes 05-01-07, 04:21 PM	How about climb check to initiate "climbing aboard" or "hanging on" once teleported with a low DC like 10 (probably not hard to find something to hold on to...but could be situational) I think the DC should be higher than 10. From the climb skill: DC10 = A surface with ledges to hold on to and stand on, such as a very rough wall or a ship’s rigging. I think climbing dragon scales would be DC 15 or higher.
Darknight303 05-01-07, 04:32 PM	You can't grapple it but it can make checks against you
Angus Cotton 05-01-07, 07:44 PM	This is similar to the "climb aboard" ability in the tactical feat: Giantsbane in CW. Fits pretty nice I think, and it makes sense. Instead of you literally climbing aboard, you teleport on its back (or dimension door I guess). Ya, but remember that the PCs don't have the feat. If you are going to allow them to make a tactical stunt without actually having the feat, at least make the check a hell of a lot higher? Gargantuan Black Dragon Dracolich? I say DC 40 Clinb check. Then there are all the really good points that Derren S. made...
Angus Cotton 05-01-07, 08:12 PM	Ok, first the PCs have to make saves to not be paralyzed when touching the dracolich (imo). If they are paralyzed it would mean instant falling damage. Point noted, Derren is right on; they have to touch the dragon and thus have to save vs. paralysis. The players might say something cheesy like, "I got really thick boots," but that still does not explain how they hold on (assuming you have to touch the dragon with your hands to actually hold on). If they manage to stay on top of the draclich, let the dragon simply dimension door away to the casters and let those to melee characters fall down for sweet 20d6 damage. Point two noted, really this isn't the end of it. There are really a number of wickedly horrible things that the dragon can do at this point to the players. Technically, you should no even try to fight a dragon out in the open if they have movement advantage. If you can outfly them, then it might be worth it to try, but if he can outfly you you are boned. PS: i don't even think that teleport could be used to do this. Teleport is used for transportation to memorized location, not to transport to a moving target. They probably need dimension door instead. Point three noted. While I do not think your DM was wrong in allowing a teleport to the back of a dragon, he certainly stretched definition of what qualifies as a 'destination' (Is the back of a dracolich a "destination", I mean?). Still, if the players had done this in my game, I would have probably allowed it too, as the thought to me seems so crazy, I would want to know what the hell they think they were doing (I would let them play out their tactic). Why they chose to teleport in the first place seems crazy as mentioned, I mean, they can cast teleport, so why not cast "Fly"? Porting to the dracolich gives the dracolich battlefield control....he decides where the two players go now, lest thye cast some other spell. D-Door is just one of the many things he can do to counter this. What about just simply flying into a lake or the ocean (sucks if they are in metal armor)? flying higher? flying into orbit? diving toward the ground and sandwiching the party between the weight of the dracolich and the flatness of the ground at full force? Have him fly over to a volcano, then shaking the party off? or simply just flying far enough away with the two party members, effectively taking the rest of the party out of the fight (kind of a divide and conquer strat)? Your best bet in this situation is just to run. If you encounter a dragon out in the open, just run. You want to take him in an area he is confined in, where it is hard for him to just simply fly away--his lair for example. Course, that presents a whole new set of challenges, such as traps and minions, but at least when you finally do fight him, he will only have hometurf advantage and not battlefield control.
Izzak 05-01-07, 08:48 PM	Hes a dracolich right, heck D-door inside him. Nothings working in there right. Hack and slash the old organs and then you have all day and night to try to kill him. And the dragon will hate itself and try to tear you out, i bet hurting himself a great deal in the process. Just a odd ball idea:lightbulb edit I do apologize for my out there comments.