Post/Author/DateTime	Post
TheWalkingLost 04-23-07, 02:51 PM	I'm playing a Warlock; I'm planning on taking only one craft item feat to at least make use of that savvy 12th level, don't need spells ability. (Technically two cause I am taking Craft Contigency Spell) I was wonder if any of you had suggestions of which one; perhaps which ones cover your favorite items or just cover real cool items. Any constructive opinion adored.
tarkin 04-23-07, 02:56 PM	Craft Wonderous Item. By far. Magic Item feats are taken for three reasons: 1. To save cash at the expense of XP. 2. Because the DM is being a prick and not offering magic items for sale 3. To make a custom magic item, not found in the DMG ------------------ #1 likes wonderous items. It offer you the most choices at most levels. I.E. Not all levels will you have the time/desire to make a staff/weapon/rod/potion etc. Even if you want a weapon, chances are you ALSO want a wonderous item. So you buy the weapon with the money you saved by making the wonderous item, instead of the other way around. #2 depends on the DM, but usually no feat is better #3 can most often be designed for wonderous items,
NineInchNall 04-23-07, 02:56 PM	Well ... Since the idea is to give the Warlock character level-appropriate abilities, the best way to do that is to give him high level spells. As such, pick up Craft Staff, which will give you access to spells of up to 9th level. If you think about it, the Warlock doesn't get anything appropriate to high-level play, so you need those staves. Craft Wondrous won't give you access to abilities anywhere near the utility of those granted by staves. I might suggest Craft Runestaff, but I have no idea how that item type interacts with UMD. I don't think anyone does, honestly.
TheWalkingLost 04-23-07, 02:59 PM	I agree that Craft Wonderous is the most broad and will give me the largest amount of Item option NIN(nice name by the way), has a very good point though; and that would vastly improve my list of possible abilities.
Evil DM Mk3 04-23-07, 03:06 PM	I might suggest Craft Runestaff, but I have no idea how that item type interacts with UMD. I don't think anyone does, honestly. It doesn't as you require to use a spell slot regardless. In the same way UMD can't use a wand without expending a charge UMD can't use a runestaff without using up a spell. Warlocks have no spells.
tarkin 04-23-07, 03:14 PM	NIN makes a good argument for OWNING staffs. His argument is not helpfull for determinging whether you should make your staves or buy them. Staves are expensive. They take a lot of time to make. How many do you wish to own and carry at one time? I would not make staves, I would buy them. Note, if your DM is not letting you buy stuff, that is a different story entirely.
TheWalkingLost 04-23-07, 03:16 PM	Itty bitty issue...
TheWalkingLost 04-23-07, 03:18 PM	Or more easily said -- it's a different story entirely :D
Nathreet 04-23-07, 03:20 PM	Having taking a good look at this before, I'm gonna have to disagree with craft wondorous item. It seems the most versatile on the surface, but many items have some pre-reqs thay you might not meet. Especially the standard items; especially the good ones. Not to mention that, while less varied, many of the standard items aren't wondorous. By standard I mean magic armor, ring of protection, stat boosters, cloak of resistance, etc. I'd say craft magic arms and armour, because the pre-reqs are low. You mostly just need a high enough crafter level. For weapons you'll likely be best off with some type of energy damage, and you'll probably have the pre-req for one of types. However, the main point is to look at what items you want to craft. Then remove those whose pre-reqs you can't satisfy (i.e., requiring spells you can't cast). Then see which feat provides the greatest quantity and quality of items on your list.
tarkin 04-23-07, 03:48 PM	Nahroot, you have a reasonable argument for wizards, a good arguement for Sorcerors/Bards. But your argument does not really apply to: A. Warlocks of 12th level or higher. Because of their special ability to "Imbue" magic items B. Clerics/Druids, cause they "know" all the spells on their list. He is playing a Warlock of 12th level spell and may make a Use Magic Device roll to create a magic item whose spell pre-reqs he does not know.
TheWalkingLost 04-23-07, 03:51 PM	I'm starting to think that Staff is my best choice since it will basically give me a rechargeable/changeable Spell Casting ability. Albeit expensive both in money and life force(xp). Having a list of options would be nice. The DM is pretty cool about giving out cool gear during adventures(like staples: stat boosters, RoPs and so on), and I don't want to become the party factory.
NineInchNall 04-23-07, 03:57 PM	I would not make staves, I would buy them. Note, if your DM is not letting you buy stuff, that is a different story entirely. The problem with buying a staff is that a staff is expensive. The really good staves will not even be available for purchase anywhere, since they'll be above the price limit of anything smaller than a planar metropolis. So it's better to craft a staff than to buy one, because that will give one access items that you wouldn't otherwise be able to purchase. The second reason to craft a staff rather than buying one is ... Staves are expensive. The money one saves by crafting staves is a little more than significant. In fact, it's crazy-go-nuts. By crafting that staff of passage, we save over 85,000 gp. The things that you'll be wanting to buy are wondrous items, since the best ones are super-cheesy-broken. With one candle of invocation, your Warlock can abuse efreet to get whatever items he wants, making craft feats basically irrelevant. (Use the candle to gate in an efreeti. Bargain with the efreeti: he gives you two untwisted wishes in exchange for your making a wish to benefit him. Wish for a candle of invocation and any magic item. Repeat.) Stupid candle of invocation. In any case, most of the wondrous items you'll be wanting will be well within price limits of your standard metropolis. The +6 stat boosters cost a paltry 36,000 gp, easily within the gp limit of a large city, and easily within the 85,000 gp that we saved by crafting our own staff. Those are my thoughts on the matter. :) It comes down to a matter of taste, but I think the cost issue is slightly in favor of grabbing Craft Staff. 'Cause there's no way a character's ever going to craft a +5 tome prior to epic levels anyway.
tarkin 04-23-07, 04:17 PM	That is silly. You made my argument for me, and don't seem to realize it. 1. Staves are expensive, but can be purchased used at a pro-rated price That is, while staves are always expensive to MAKE, they are often cheaper to buy. I roll 1d100 when a staff is being purchased. 50 or greater = fully charged. Otherwise, it has some charges used up, and the price is adjusted down (25 charges = 1/2 price). 2. At almost any level, you can get another wonderous item. Usually you just don't have the time to make another staff and don't want to cause you are already carring 3. 3. You can UPGRADE your existing magic items, but not if they are staves. I.E. you have a free week and some gold? Turn that +3 amulet of Natural Armor into +4. You can't do that with a staff (it can only be made fully charged). The item type to choose for CRAFTING (as opposed to owning), should be: A. have cheap things. (letting you make them when you have limited gold/xp/time) B. Have expensive things. (letting you make them when you have lots of gold/xp/time) C. Be upgradeable D. Be something you easy to carry in large numbers E. Be something you are likely to pay to own lots of them. That is not a staff. P.S. You don't know how to play efreeti, particularly with wishes. When they wish, it costs them XP, among other things. Wishes also count as a high value service, which can NOT be purchased by promising them to give them a single wish - you need to PAY them for the wish, not pay them with their own service. House Painters do not agree to paint your two house in exchange for painting their own house. As a DM I would laugh at your silly attempt to game a wish, and have the Efreeti cheat you blatantly. Among other things, they are evil.
NineInchNall 04-23-07, 04:17 PM	It doesn't as you require to use a spell slot regardless. In the same way UMD can't use a wand without expending a charge UMD can't use a runestaff without using up a spell. Warlocks have no spells. I don't think you can definitively state that. To wit, here's the relevant text from UMD: Emulate a Class Feature Sometimes you need to use a class feature to activate a magic item. In this case, your effective level in the emulated class equals your Use Magic Device check result minus 20. This skill does not let you actually use the class feature of another class. It just lets you activate items as if you had that class feature. If the class whose feature you are emulating has an alignment requirement, you must meet it, either honestly or by emulating an appropriate alignment with a separate Use Magic Device check (see above). UMD should allow you to activate the item as if you had used the relevant class feature. In the case of a runestaff, that class feature is spellcasting. This is not the same as expending a charge from an item; that is what happens when the item is activated. The item activates, and one charge is expended (sometimes more than one is expended.) For example, Lidda finds a magic chalice that turns regular water into holy water when a cleric or experienced paladin channels positive energy into it as if turning undead. She attempts to activate the item by emulating the cleric's undead turning ability. This is possible despite the fact that Lidda has no uses of turn undead to expend in order to activate the chalice. The problem, of course, is that this leads us to neverending spells from a runestaff. But whatever, this is WotC we're talking about.
NineInchNall 04-23-07, 04:20 PM	2. At almost ANY level, you can get another wonderous item. Usually you just don't have the time to make another staff and DON'T want to cause you are already carring 3. 3. It is easier to UPGRADE your existing magic items if they are not staves. I.E. you have a free week and some gold? Turn that +3 amulet of Natural Armor into +4. And how many wondrous items does a Warlock really want that he will have a hard time purchasing? He wants his ring of protection, amulet of natural armor, cloak of charisma, chausuble of fell power, and ... Everything else is pretty much gravy or situational utility. P.S. You don't know how to play efreeti, particularly with wishes. When they wish, it costs them XP, among other things. Wishes also count as a high value service, which can NOT be purchased two for 1 from them. As a DM I would laugh at your silly attempt to game a wish, and have the Efreeti cheat you blatantly. 1. They are evil and 2. They can not benefit from their own wishes, even if the human makes it. Hence the requirement of the bargain: "You don't screw with my wishes, and I'll make a wish for you." I would think that the possibilities of that wish made for its benefit are pretty huge, no? Things like any nonmagical item of 25,000 gp value or a magical item of any value are pretty, um, what's the word, valuable. How in the crap can they not benefit from their own wishes? "I wish for a ruby of 25,000 gp value. *bam* Here you go, Mr. Efreeti, and thanks for your business." And no, they don't expend XP when wishing. XP is a spell component. SLAs don't have components.
tarkin 04-23-07, 04:34 PM	1. Runestaves do not help warlocks without some house ruling. You don't have a spell slots. UMD is not "Do anything you want with Magic Devices". It lets ACTIVATE them. For many people, activating a magic item is not helpfull. 2. NIN I updated my comments about wishes. Re-read my comments. The Sage specifically state that YES, supernatural abilities COST XP for wishes etc. If you wish to House Rule otherwise, fine. But it is not really relevant to this situation. Your argument is horrible and silly. NO SANE DM WILL LET YOU GET AWAY WITH IT Efreeti are not morons giving away wishes 2/1. You want a wish from an efreeti, it will cost you a LOT more than you think it will. They will not take your ridiculous offer, any more than a taxi driver will agree to drive you to the airport and back for free in exchange for riding in his car while he goes to pick up his children. If he makes the wish, HE is doing the work and he will NOT consider his own wish payment for giving you two wishes. If what you think worked, than the Efreeti would enslave a goblin and every day give them goblin one wish as long as it did not free the goblin, and have the goblin spend his own two wishes to help the Efreeti. And that would mean that every Efreeti would have their three wishes used up before you summoned him. No free wishes for you. 3. I have NEVER had a player run out of Wonderous Items they wish to upgrade. It is not that they have a hard time purchasing, it is that they ALWAYS want one. A belt, boots, gloves, etc. etc. etc. You own more of them, and they often are upgradeable directly - +2 gloves into +4, +4 into +6. You give a player 3 staves, and they do not want to buy another, they buy other things. They stop wanting staves almost immediately.
NineInchNall 04-23-07, 04:37 PM	NO SANE DM WILL LET YOU GET AWAY WITH IT Did I say it was not broken? I was pointing out something that is broken within the rules. Whether it's going to be rule zeroed away is irrelevant to whether it's broken or not.
Leress 04-23-07, 04:42 PM	P.S. You don't know how to play efreeti, particularly with wishes. When they wish, it costs them XP, among other things. Wishes also count as a high value service, which can NOT be purchased by promising them to give them a single wish - you need to PAY them for the wish, not pay them with their own service. House Painters do not agree to paint your two house in exchange for painting their own house. As a DM I would laugh at your silly attempt to game a wish, and have the Efreeti cheat you blatantly. Among other things, they are evil. It doesn't cost Efreetis xp to use wish since it is a spell like ability Spell-Like Abilities (Sp) Usually, a spell-like ability works just like the spell of that name. A few spell-like abilities are unique; these are explained in the text where they are described. A spell-like ability has no verbal, somatic, or material component, nor does it require a focus or have an XP cost. The user activates it mentally. Armor never affects a spell-like ability’s use, even if the ability resembles an arcane spell with a somatic component.
NineInchNall 04-23-07, 04:52 PM	Furthermore, you certainly can create staves at prorated costs: If desired, a spell can be placed into the staff at only half the normal cost, but then activating that particular spell costs 2 charges from the staff. The caster level of all spells in a staff must be the same, and no staff can have a caster level of less than 8th, even if all the spells in the staff are low-level spells. Given that there are spells in staves that expend 3 charges, then one can only assume that 3 charges costs the creator some amount less than 2 charges.
TheWalkingLost 04-23-07, 04:53 PM	Uh thanks a lot for your help guys ... but uh, its gone a little off topic; Thanks again.
NineInchNall 04-23-07, 04:54 PM	Sorry about that. :P Let us know how it goes. :)
Nathreet 04-23-07, 05:48 PM	He is playing a Warlock of 12th level spell and may make a Use Magic Device roll to create a magic item whose spell pre-reqs he does not know. Oh.... that's what I get for not knowing about warlocks. Rest of the argument still applies. Pick the feat that gives more of the items you want, not just the feat that gives the most items. For a caster I imagine you'd want craft wondorous item to boost... um, whatever your caster stat is :P. Unless you want to consider the needs of the rest of your party too.
Novacat 04-23-07, 06:11 PM	Creating a staff with only a single 9th level spell will cost only 28,687.5g, and 2295xp (totaling 573g and 45.9xp per casting), while the same spell in a scroll costs 1912.5g and 153xp. Of course, you can spend this is smaller amounts by making the spell consume 2 charges, but the cost-per-casting remains the same.
liquidhypnotic 05-01-07, 01:10 AM	All of the OPs pressing need to know about Tarkin's vast knowledge of efreeti psychology aside, I just wanted to add that according to the FAQ, the crafter need not know the pre-req spell for a magic item ever, nor is there a caster level pre-req either; the creator merely needs to provide the XP and have the appropriate feat. The Spell Storing weapon quality expressly says that the creator must be CL 12th or higher, and Ioun Stones must be made by crafters of at least 12th character level, but I can't think of any others like that off the top of my head. The CLs listed are default guidelines for if your magic item is subject to dispelling or something of the sort. Of course, none of this is relevant to the Warlock at all, heh heh. I just wanted to clarify, and maybe make someone's day by letting them know ;-) OP, you face a tough decision. Staves kick ass; no question. For my oldest character, I'm planning on taking Craft Staff as soon as I can, but only because most of the default ones don't do much for me (Custom design: The Staff of Solutions, featuring the spells Dark Way (makes a bridge), Force Ladder, Easy Climb, Daylight, Greater Mage Hand, Knock, etc, most of which are in the Spell Compendium). The biggest advantage to staves is that you're much more likely to put powerful and super useful contingent spells in them, like Heal, or Remove Curse, Remove Disease, or what have you. (Staff of Succor, Staff of Freedom, Cursebreaker's Staff, Staff of Stealth, etc, etc, etc). Let's be honest, you're much less likely to put, say, Remove Disease, on a Wondrous Item. Staves handle things like healing much better than wondrous items traditionally have, just in terms of flavor. OF interest to your character: I dislike it myself, but any spell with the word "Cure" in it that appears on the bard spell list counts as an arcane spell, passing the UMD check DC's savings to you. These spells include CLW, CMW, CSW, CCW, mCLW, mCMW. Staves are much easier to price; for the most part, just stick to the guideline, and you're good to go. You save ridiculous amounts of money going staffy. Also, last but not least, staves are baaaad ass. Maybe you can heal a little, smack some dudes around, sling some eldritch blasts, etc. Go nuts. The cons of staves, however, are as Tarkin mentioned: You'll crank out finished staves much less often, and 50 charges isn't a lot. Wondrous items are GREAT. First of all, of course everyone wants their cloaks and gloves and belts (rings are, of course, under Forge Ring), circlets, amulets, what have you. Then there are the use once, forget about items, your dusts and candles and tokens and such. For me, though, the BIG thrill is in making permanent and re-usable items, from the very small to the very large. Examples: (1) I once made a small Stone of Water Purification that cost 1000gp by strict rules. It's powerful enough to plop into up to 8 gallons of water, and fish out of clean drinking water maybe a short while later (just to be a little less crazy about it; the spell is instantaneous). One of those big blue bottles that you see in office coolers holds either 5 or 6 gallons. (Craft Wondrous Item, Purify Food and Drink, CL 1, Use-Activated so SL(1/2 for a 0lvl spell) x CL(1 is fine) x 2000 according to the item creation rules). Depend a little less on the hired ranger in the woods, survive after a shipwreck (HELLO) on an island or floating on a raft, etc). (2) A pair of Gloves of Open/Close costs, well, let's even say 900gp, by adding a command word to it. My wizard wears a glove and points to doors and windows and says a word and they open and close (provided they are not locked, but that's what Knock is for). He does it all day long. Whatev; he's a wizard! Tactically, that means he can open doors from a distance, which is nice for avoiding traps, setting up tactical indoor combat, creating distractions ("Hunh, I thought I closed that, I'd better hyuurgh! Sneak Attack!"), etc. Actually, let's see: Gloves of Open/Close AND Silent Portal: let's go for the worst pricing scenario and call it 1000 + 1000 * 1.5 gp. 2500gp to be able to silently open any unlocked door from 25 feet away. Toss in the ability Knock once a day: tack on 1.5 * 3 * 2 * 1/5 * 2000 = 3600gp. We're talking about 6100gp here; just over your +2 Gloves of Dexterity. To make it more fair, let's even just jack up the price to 16,000gp. Whatever. Is it still an awesome item? Are the ninjas in the house drooling? (3) Maybe I enchant a piece of rope and put Rope Trick on it, usable once a day for 10 hours, command word activated. SL 2 * CL 10 * 1800gp for command word * 1/5 for once a day = 7200gp. YOU CAN ALWAYS REST. Just gotta find somewhere to hide the Bags of Holding, and it sure won't work on a ship! (well, it would, but with a very bad and soggy ending :P ) (4) I've always wondered that monks get so shafted for healing. I mean, for god's sake, give them Lay On Hands, based on Wisdom, or something. Well, my DM house ruled that Strands of Prayer Beads could have more beads on them, pricing them as appropriate. I don't see why a loner monk couldn't have like a giant strand of beads (think anime buddhist monks) with 6 beads of healing on them. I know he's not counting on Wholeness of Body to save him! Along the same vein, other characters could have a single good luck charm ("my mother gave me this") that functions like a Bead of Healing (takes up a neck body slot, SL 3, CL 5, Use-Activated (std), Useable once a day, 3*5*1/5*2000 = 6000gp.) A little costly, but not a single day would go by without your hitting that button. Actually something like a Remove Fear (as the spell) would be cooler; find it on the dead body of a little elven girl slain in the raid on your village, and you take it and vow to yadda yadda. Isn't that cool. The number one biggest problem with Wondrous Items, though, as you might have already guessed, is the pricing. For example, using a strict interpretation of the pricing rules, a pair of Goggles of Ebon Eyes (Spell Compendium, lets you see NORMALLY in normal AND MAGICAL darkness?!) that was constantly active would cost you, oh, 3000gp. A similar item, Goggles of Night, which grant you 60 ft darkvision (black and white only, ew)... costs 12,000gp. Again, going by the strict rules, and patterning after the Boots of Haste, my original Invisibility Scanner (eyewear) cost 2*3*2000*1/5=2400gp, functioned for a grand total of 30 minutes a day, and could be turned on and off in minute long intervals, plenty of time for him to tag the invisible dude with some Dust of Appearance or, my favorite, Faerie Fire arrows (ouch, no saving throw. This was on a ranger whose specialty was tagging invisible creatures). Sick powerful item. I've since tacked on a warm up (with decreasing percentage miss as they come into focus) and cool down time with penalties to other skills (Spot, Search, very temporary blindness), a less fine-grained activation (5 minute increments), and a restriction on those with Spot +5 or better. Jacked the price to 8,000gp. STILL, though. In the end, I personally think I've had more fun with Crafting Wondrous Items. Frankly, I actually think the crafting system needs a huuuge overhaul (Craft Magic Jewelry, Craft Magic Vestments, Craft Magic Trinkets, etc), precisely because Wondrous Item is such a huge and catchall category, but hey, take advantage of that :) I hope this was enjoyable.
liquidhypnotic 05-01-07, 01:21 AM	For all of my blah blah, I did a pretty poor job of making my first point: when crafting a magic item, the spell needs to be cast into the item in question, but it need not come from the crafter. This is basically the only way the Amulets of Natural Armor or Mighty Fists get made, for example. Potions of Barkskin. Ordinarily, say you've got a druid, a cleric, and a wizard, and they each have one different crafting feat, you can go to TOWN when you have downtime. I've personally made several low level characters worth of items (as in, enough xp to make 3rd level characters) in my one main campaign. In the OP's case, as long as he's been keeping his UMD up, he can pretend he has access to all arcane spells in the game. With a little more effort, he can fake divine spells, too. Note, however, that most if not all of the Cure spells can be counted as arcane, by the bard loophole. My final thoughts are that as a Warlock, you've already basically got your blasting figured out, and so I'd say go for utility and go for Wondrous. That feat lets you get creATIVE, son! I think crafting is my favorite part of the game. For real.
runestar 05-01-07, 01:39 AM	If you have an archivist in your party - scribe scroll.:)