Post/Author/DateTime	Post
TheMagister 03-07-07, 03:26 AM	Okay, I had an epiphany of sorts while I was out driving, and I need someone to stop me before I break something. Note: If this all turns out legal, I have dibs on this concept. I've pitlorded for Maraxus' Balrog a couple times, and I've often thought: "where's he going with this?" That naturally led me down an optimizer's pipe-dream path, and this is what I've come up with. Male Centaur Psywar 4 (ECL10) Various Stats, but probably 24 Str and 18 Wis before items. Feats: 1HD: Ride-by Attack [General] 3HD: Spirited Charge [General] Psywar1: Psionic Weapon [Psionic] Psywar2: Deep Impact [Psionic] 6HD: Power Attack Equipment would include: Boots of Flying (pay credits to get the non-humanoid equivalent), Armor of the Rhino (ala Sir Valkin) Powers: the only important one comes at Psywar 4, which would be Psionic Lion's Charge. Everything else is icing (expansion, empty mind, etc.). The Lance would do x4 damage, the hooves and off-hand x2. Cohort: Level 8 Cleric of War/Strength built to Spirited Charge. Something with low HP and big strength, and decent intelligence (need a good ride skill). So the idea is to get two charges for the price of one. I'm smellin' cheese, but there's nothing that I can think of that'd be stopping the build from working like I think it would. I was thinking about this as well. If you spirited charge a target, and elect to Improved Trip that target, would your followup attack on a successful trip attempt gain the benefits of spirited charge? TM I fully, whole-heartedly approve of your gouda-build. Only two teency problem. Your centaur will not be able to use it's hooves on a charge as well, since Lance is a reach weapon, and you attack in the first possible square to do so. Problem number two, is your cleric will need to be half-giant using a large lance, otherwise, his reach won't be enough. ToK Well, see, I'm thinking that Ride-by Attack in conjunction with Psionic Lion's Charge solves that problem, as well as the reach problem of my rider. Lemme make a map: http://www.hwx.it/coco/coco.php;v=1;map=arena;a=Me,L,12,27,12,2 9,12,31,8,49,Centaur;b=Ride,M,13,27,13,2 9,13,31,9,49,Rider;c=Targ,M,14,33,Target So help me work through this step-by-step: Position 1 - Start: at least 10 ft. away. Check. Manifest Psionic Lion's Charge as a free action. Charge. Position 2 - target is within 20'; declare power attack -7/+14; expend focus for Deep Impact. Roll to hit. Don't Miss. Deal 2d6+[str*1.5]+[14]x3 dmg. Continue moving via Ride-by Attack. Position 3 - target is 10' away; cohort attacks with lance, declaring Divine Might and Smite (if applicable) and declaring the usage of his Strength domain. Yucky. Position 4 (not shown) - target is 5' away; make attacks with hooves and off-hand (armor spikes) at big penalties (-5 for secondary weapons, -4 for TWF, -7 for power attack, +2 charging. Hope for a 20.) via Psionic Lion's charge in conjunction with Ride-by Attack. Position 5 (shown) - Finish ride-by attack far, far away. Why wouldn't that work? Psionic Lion's charge changes the rules of charge to "when you charge you can make a full attack in the same round." And Ride-by Attack says that you don't have to stop at the nearest square from which you can attack your opponent. It seems pretty much tied up in a sack. Tell me what you think? TM
jaelis 03-07-07, 08:10 AM	RBA and Sprited Attack say that they will only work if you are mounted. A centaur is not actually mounted, he is just a quadruped with arms. So you wouldn't be able to use those feats yourself.
runestar 03-07-07, 08:18 AM	Some minor points of note: 1) I am not sure if you can trip at the end of a charge. 2) You do not need to pay extra for boots of flying. Centaurs can wear magical boots just fine(they will automatically resize to fit him) 3) That is a very convoluted of building a charging build. Are you sure you do not want to stick to the tried and tested shock trooper+power attack+leap attack+spirited charge combo?:P I suppose you could make a full attack in between moves by combining lion's pounce with ride by attack. However, I am not sure if centaurs can take the ride by attack feat(races of faerun only mentions that they may take spirited charge and trample feats without meeting the prereqs). However, the problem here is that Lance: A lance deals double damage when used from the back of a charging mount. It has reach, so you can strike opponents 10 feet away with it, but you can’t use it against an adjacent foe. Your hooves and armour spikes only have the basic 5ft reach. So you can only attack with either your lance or your hoove+spike combo, not both. Or am I missing something?
tarkin 03-07-07, 11:31 AM	Also, attacks added onto a charge do not count as 'charging' unless the ability that added them on specifically says so. That is, when you charge, the second your first attack hits, you are no longer charging. Period, end of charge. You still have the disadvantages of charging, but don't get the benefit. This is because the charge benefit involves converting your momentum from the charge into to hit/damage/etc. bonuses. All of that momentum is needed for the attack, and once used it is gone. Each charging person gets a single charge attack, that's it. But the basic idea of having a mounted character and mount character is a solid one, working together using charge related feats is a sound one. I have also seen Druid with Wildshape and Leadership builds that work well like this.
Someone 03-07-07, 01:30 PM	Don't R-BA and Spirited Charge have Mounted Combat as a prereq? i.e. your centaur is one feat short. Also, does lion's charge allow you to make a full attack as a standard action? I though it just let you do a full attack and a move when you charge. Because R-BA only lets you make a standard attack action in between (as opposed to only before or after) your movement.
FrostHammer 03-07-07, 02:57 PM	I count centaurs as having Mounted combat for the purposes of qualifying for other feats. It makes sense, and others think so too.
runestar 03-07-07, 09:13 PM	Don't R-BA and Spirited Charge have Mounted Combat as a prereq? i.e. your centaur is one feat short. Centaurs are allowed to take spirited charge without having to meet the prereq. Not sure about ride by attack though.:)
FrostHammer 03-07-07, 09:34 PM	I've got a question about charging on a mount. If you're riding a mount and do a cahrge attack, you can still use Leap attack right? As in, you use a ride check to get your mount to leap, and then both of you get the benefits? Or, if yourmount is intelligent, it just makes its own jump check and you both get the benefits?
runestar 03-07-07, 10:02 PM	It should work if you are your own mount, such as aforementioned centaur. I am not so sure for other for PCs which are actually mounted, but I believe it would work as well.:)
TheMagister 03-10-07, 06:25 PM	Don't R-BA and Spirited Charge have Mounted Combat as a prereq? i.e. your centaur is one feat short. Also, does lion's charge allow you to make a full attack as a standard action? I though it just let you do a full attack and a move when you charge. Because R-BA only lets you make a standard attack action in between (as opposed to only before or after) your movement. Thanks for all the replies, ya'll. From the reading of it, Lion's Charge replaces your standard "one-attack at the end of the charge" to "you can make a full attack at the end of a charge". Ride-by attack changes "you must stop after your attack on a charge" to "you can keep going after an attack on a charge". It just makes sense that you could charge, attack at lance range with your rider, keep going five feet and finish your full attack (hooves), and then continue on your way. You can 5' step in between attacks, so I dunno why it'd be a problem. @the fellow who mentioned leap attack/shock trooper: I'm in the Core Coliseum, so I don't have access to the Complete books for this character's purpose. We try to do more with less over there. You oughta stop by and check it out...some of the builds are pretty crazy, considering what we have to work with. On a related note: can you imagine taking this guy into Warmind? Talk about a master at breaking into formations...(sweeping strike, etc.) TM