optimizing two-weapon fighting [Archive] - Wizards Community

optimizing two-weapon fighting [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
the_dark_one_of_twilight
02-24-08, 08:11 PM alright to help everyone out there
ive been seeing people asking a lot of questions on two-weapon fighting
so heres what im gonna say
lets make a whole thread about it
just two-weapon fighting
i want to hear everyones personal views of two-weapon fighting
their personal favorite weapons for two weapon fighting (statics would be enjoyed)
and of course feats that would go with two-weapon fighting(prereqs. and benefits would also be enjoyed)
and why you like what you posted
hope this really helps some people out
Shadezeta
02-24-08, 08:28 PM I think my favorite weapons would be a two scimitars, of course to do that I would match Fighter levels with Dervish levels.

and I would definitely take the Tempest levels as well just because removing those two weapon fighting penalties is just helpful to lose. In addition you get a free +3 untyped bonus to your AC.

Featwise I'd probably take for feats TWF, Impr. TWF, Greater TWF, two weapon defense, impr. two weapon defense, greater two weapon defense, and since I took fighter levels I could get weapon focus, and weapon specializaiton both with the scimitar of course, and since I need them to take tempest I'd need dodge, mobility, and spring attack.

Obviously I picked the scimitar so that if I make them both keen I'll have a lot of attacks and thereby give myself more chances to critically strike.
LunarWolfPrime
02-24-08, 08:45 PM I love Tiger Claw Warblades with 2 kukri's and TWF, oh on aside not what about unarmed attacks with TWF?
runestar
02-24-08, 11:54 PM Warblade with pouncing charge, raging mongoose, haste, a 2-handed weapon, IUS+superior unarmed strike+greater magic fang and an animated shield.:D

Best of all 3 worlds.
LunarWolfPrime
02-25-08, 08:06 PM Warblade with pouncing charge, raging mongoose, haste, a 2-handed weapon, IUS+superior unarmed strike+greater magic fang and an animated shield.:D

Best of all 3 worlds.

You are nut's
RobbyPants
02-27-08, 02:06 PM If I'm going to use two weapons, I try to get my per attack damage up. My prefered way is through sneak attack. A character I made for a one shot campaign used two short swords, and I took swashbuckler levels and the Daring Outlaw feat to be able to get full Sneak Attack progression with a near full BAB.

When I played him, he was Rogue 4/Swashbuckler 3. It was a fun character.
pigknight
02-27-08, 08:50 PM Personally I like the look of 2 scimitars, longsword and scimitar, flail and longsword, dagger and longsword, double bladded sword, staff and longsword, dagger and rapier, and sword and shield (shield bash). The two scimitar thing is not a Drizzt thing, it just looks cool. And of course adding any elemental enchantments boosts damage.
ToastedAmphibian
02-27-08, 11:07 PM Optomized two weapon fighting? Multiweapon fighting
Seriously, if two is better than one....

I like fire lashes with oversized two-weapon fighting. One handed touch attack with 15ft range that is finessable and powerattackable. http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/prestigeClasses/pyrokineticist.htm
unundindur
02-28-08, 07:08 AM Although its not primarily a twf-build, my favourite concept have always been the dual-scimitar wielding high elf bladedancer.

That turned out to be a Ranger 3/Wizard2/Abjurant champion5/Eldritch knight 10
Take all the twf feats you can, and have fun. Its not the most powerful, but imo its the one that best captures what I want to acomplish.

EDIT: You can of course change ranger into swashbuckler :)
RobbyPants
02-28-08, 07:22 AM While certainly not a requirement for a TWF build, I almost always wield two of the same type of weapon, unless the character concept dictates otherwise. This is only to get the most milage out of feats. If you have two different weapons, than every weapon-specific feat needs to be taken twice to boost both of your weapons.

Now, if you aren't planning on taking any of those feats in your build, then you don't need to worry about it.
runestar
02-28-08, 08:12 AM Thank goodness for the aptitude weapon property from ToB then...:D
LordTarmos
02-28-08, 08:44 PM I think the best way to go is to increase damage with sneak (such as rogue levels) take the feat telling blow(sneak whenever you crit)pick one weapon to use in both hands with a large crit range(kukri18-20) since you only need 1 feat for both weapons choose improved crit for that weapon now threat range is (15-20)(now you crit 30% of the time) in the range you are most likely to hit. even when you are not flanking a large number of your attacks are sneak attacks. next begin increasing your AOO to increse the number of attacks you have per round with combat reflexes and robilars gambit. then you are set.
StruckingFuggle
02-29-08, 01:15 AM What about a Revenant Blade?
SamyMerchi
02-29-08, 11:46 AM Here are some feats I'm using in my campaign. I haven't paid attention to balance though, so you might want to consider their balance before taking a shine to them.

Two-Weapon Equilibrium [General, Fighter]
You have learned to counterbalance a weapon with another of the same type.

Prerequisites
Str 13+, Two-Weapon Fighting, Base Attack Bonus +1
Benefit
You may treat an off-hand weapon as a light weapon if you have a weapon of the same type in your primary hand and if that weapon type is normally one-handed for you. Masterwork and magical bonuses do not need to match. Thus, a human could wield a magical longsword and a regular longsword and receive the benefits of a light off-hand weapon. Wielding a longsword and a battleaxe would not receive the benefits of a light off-hand weapon because the two weapons are not of the same type.
Normal
Using a (non-light) one-handed weapon in your off-hand incurs an extra -2 penalty to two-weapon fighting.
Special
This feat does not allow two-handed weapons wielded one-handed (such as with the Monkey Grip feat) to be considered light weapons.

Two-Weapon Equilibrium, Improved [General, Fighter]
You can counterbalance two-handed weapons.

Prerequisites
Str 13+, Two-Weapon Fighting, Two-Weapon Equilibrium, Monkey Grip, Base Attack Bonus +4
Benefit
You receive the benefits of Two-Weapon Equilibrium when two-weapon fighting with two two-handed weapons. The two-handed weapons do not receive the penalty for not being light weapons. Normal Monkey Grip penalties to hit still apply, of course. With this feat, your attack penalties are -4 from Monkey Grip and -2 for a light off-hand weapon.
Normal
Wielding two two-handed weapons incurs a -4 penalty from Monkey Grip and -4 penalty for not having a light off-hand weapon.

Two-Weapon Power [General, Fighter]
Your off-hand is stronger.

Prerequisites
Str 15+, Two-Weapon Fighting
Benefit
You receive 0.75 times your full strength bonus (rounded down) on all damage rolls with your off-hand weapon.
Normal
You receive 0.5 times your full strength bonus (rounded down) on all damage rolls with your off-hand weapon.

Two-Weapon Power, Improved [General, Fighter]
Your off-hand is as strong as your primary hand.

Prerequisites
Str 15+, Two-Weapon Fighting, Two-Weapon Power
Benefit
You receive your full strength bonus on all damage rolls with your off-hand weapon.
Normal
You receive 0.5 times your full strength bonus (rounded down) on all damage rolls with your off-hand weapon.
sn0rb
02-29-08, 12:02 PM Here's mine, which relies on being human, having a lot of Dex and stuff my DM would barely let me get away with.

Level 1-6: Fighter.
Level 7-11: Anything with a full BAB progression.

Level 1: Two-Weapon Fighting
Human: Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Bastard Swords)
Fighter 1: Oversized Two-Weapon Fighting (CompAdv)
Fighter 2: Two-Weapon Defense
Level 3: Dodge
Fighter 4: Mobility
Level 6: Improved Two-Weapon Fighting
Fighter 6: Spring Attack
Level 9: Improved Two-Weapon Defense
Level 12: Greater Two-Weapon Fighting
Level 15: Greater Two-Weapon Defense

This makes bastard swords light weapons for this character (but, sadly, not finessable...)
Urithair
02-29-08, 01:45 PM Like Runestar, only Swordsage/Craven/ShadowBlade
runestar
02-29-08, 10:16 PM Here's mine, which relies on being human, having a lot of Dex and stuff my DM would barely let me get away with.

I don't see why any fair DM would ban this? As far as I can tell, it is a fairly weak build. :confused:

You have spring attack, which does not mesh well with TWFing (since it precludes the use of full-attack actions).
sn0rb
03-01-08, 10:50 AM I don't see why any fair DM would ban this? As far as I can tell, it is a fairly weak build. :confused:

You have spring attack, which does not mesh well with TWFing (since it precludes the use of full-attack actions).

I think he'd either ban it ("No, you're not going to be some bastard-sword dualwielding psychopath!") or just shrug and say "O...kay,". I'm tempted to try it one day just to see if he'll let me do it.

Now, a real build for TWF. Not sure what Dark One of Twilight's DM says regarding multiple PrCs, but I'm rather fond of this one build. The only sticking point is, ask your DM if he'll let you take level-based feats BEFORE picking a class (which this kinda relies on):

Str 16 Dex 16 Con 15 Int 14 Wis 14 Cha 16
Human Bonus Feat: Dodge
Level 1 (Swashbuckler 1): Two-Weapon Fighting
Level 2 (Fighter 1): Mobility
Level 3 (Swashbuckler 2): Combat Expertise
Level 4 (Swashbuckler 3): +1 Dexterity
Level 5 (Swashbuckler 4): Nothing
Level 6 (Dervish 1): Weapon Focus (Scimitars)
Level 7 (Dervish 2): Nothing
Level 8 (Dervish 3): +1 Strength
Level 9 (Tempest 1): Improved Two-Weapon Fighting
Level 10 (Tempest 2): Nothing
Level 11 (Tempest 3): Nothing
Level 12 (Tempest 4): +1 Strength, Greater Two-Weapon Fighting
Level 13 (Tempest 5): Nothing
Level 14 (Dervish 4): Nothing
Level 15 (Dervish 5): Dual Strike
Level 16 (Dervish 6): +1 Strength
Level 17 (Dervish 7): Nothing
Level 18 (Dervish 8): Improved Two-Weapon Defense
Level 19 (Dervish 9): Nothing
Level 20 (Dervish 10): +1 Strength

What do we get out of all this?
*Automatic Weapon Finesse
*+1 Ref in light armor (Grace +1)
* The ability to add your Int mod to damage against living enemies (Insightful Strike)
* +3 AC bonus similar to a Monk's
* The ability to move your full speed during a full-round attack and add a total of +5 damage with slashing weapons (Dervish Dance) and not be fatigued afterwards (Tireless Dance)
* The ability to take 10 on Jump, Perform (Dance), and that all-important Tumble (Movement Mastery)
* Scimitars are now light weapons (Slashing Blades)
* +15 Speed in light armor (Fast Movement)
* The effects of Cleave during your Dervish Dance (Dance of Death)
* +2 Initiative (Improved Reaction)
* An extra +4 AC while fighting defensively/total defense action (Elaborate Parry)
* The ability to double the amount of attacks you can make once per day, and Great Cleave while you're doing it (A Thousand Cuts)
* +3 AC while using two weapons (Tempest Defense)
* The ability to apply Weapon Focus/Specialization to your other weapon (Two-Weapon Versatility, moot because by this point you're dual-wielding Scimitars.)
* The ability to use both weapons during Spring Attack (Two-Weapon Spring Attack)
* Aaaaaand last but not least, Ambidexterity (-2/+0). If you're using a one-handed weapon in your off hand, the penalty is now -2 instead of -4. If you're using a light weapon (which a scimitar is, at this point), the TWF penalty is entirely negated.

The only weaknesses I see are: Magic's still gonna school you, Dual Strike is too far into the picture to be of any real use (You can Dervish Dance 3/Day by this point), and it's reliant on your DM letting you pick feats before you pick a class.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
the_dark_one_of_twilight 02-24-08, 08:11 PM	alright to help everyone out there ive been seeing people asking a lot of questions on two-weapon fighting so heres what im gonna say lets make a whole thread about it just two-weapon fighting i want to hear everyones personal views of two-weapon fighting their personal favorite weapons for two weapon fighting (statics would be enjoyed) and of course feats that would go with two-weapon fighting(prereqs. and benefits would also be enjoyed) and why you like what you posted hope this really helps some people out
Shadezeta 02-24-08, 08:28 PM	I think my favorite weapons would be a two scimitars, of course to do that I would match Fighter levels with Dervish levels. and I would definitely take the Tempest levels as well just because removing those two weapon fighting penalties is just helpful to lose. In addition you get a free +3 untyped bonus to your AC. Featwise I'd probably take for feats TWF, Impr. TWF, Greater TWF, two weapon defense, impr. two weapon defense, greater two weapon defense, and since I took fighter levels I could get weapon focus, and weapon specializaiton both with the scimitar of course, and since I need them to take tempest I'd need dodge, mobility, and spring attack. Obviously I picked the scimitar so that if I make them both keen I'll have a lot of attacks and thereby give myself more chances to critically strike.
LunarWolfPrime 02-24-08, 08:45 PM	I love Tiger Claw Warblades with 2 kukri's and TWF, oh on aside not what about unarmed attacks with TWF?
runestar 02-24-08, 11:54 PM	Warblade with pouncing charge, raging mongoose, haste, a 2-handed weapon, IUS+superior unarmed strike+greater magic fang and an animated shield.:D Best of all 3 worlds.
LunarWolfPrime 02-25-08, 08:06 PM	Warblade with pouncing charge, raging mongoose, haste, a 2-handed weapon, IUS+superior unarmed strike+greater magic fang and an animated shield.:D Best of all 3 worlds. You are nut's
RobbyPants 02-27-08, 02:06 PM	If I'm going to use two weapons, I try to get my per attack damage up. My prefered way is through sneak attack. A character I made for a one shot campaign used two short swords, and I took swashbuckler levels and the Daring Outlaw feat to be able to get full Sneak Attack progression with a near full BAB. When I played him, he was Rogue 4/Swashbuckler 3. It was a fun character.
pigknight 02-27-08, 08:50 PM	Personally I like the look of 2 scimitars, longsword and scimitar, flail and longsword, dagger and longsword, double bladded sword, staff and longsword, dagger and rapier, and sword and shield (shield bash). The two scimitar thing is not a Drizzt thing, it just looks cool. And of course adding any elemental enchantments boosts damage.
ToastedAmphibian 02-27-08, 11:07 PM	Optomized two weapon fighting? Multiweapon fighting Seriously, if two is better than one.... I like fire lashes with oversized two-weapon fighting. One handed touch attack with 15ft range that is finessable and powerattackable. http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/prestigeClasses/pyrokineticist.htm
unundindur 02-28-08, 07:08 AM	Although its not primarily a twf-build, my favourite concept have always been the dual-scimitar wielding high elf bladedancer. That turned out to be a Ranger 3/Wizard2/Abjurant champion5/Eldritch knight 10 Take all the twf feats you can, and have fun. Its not the most powerful, but imo its the one that best captures what I want to acomplish. EDIT: You can of course change ranger into swashbuckler :)
RobbyPants 02-28-08, 07:22 AM	While certainly not a requirement for a TWF build, I almost always wield two of the same type of weapon, unless the character concept dictates otherwise. This is only to get the most milage out of feats. If you have two different weapons, than every weapon-specific feat needs to be taken twice to boost both of your weapons. Now, if you aren't planning on taking any of those feats in your build, then you don't need to worry about it.
runestar 02-28-08, 08:12 AM	Thank goodness for the aptitude weapon property from ToB then...:D
LordTarmos 02-28-08, 08:44 PM	I think the best way to go is to increase damage with sneak (such as rogue levels) take the feat telling blow(sneak whenever you crit)pick one weapon to use in both hands with a large crit range(kukri18-20) since you only need 1 feat for both weapons choose improved crit for that weapon now threat range is (15-20)(now you crit 30% of the time) in the range you are most likely to hit. even when you are not flanking a large number of your attacks are sneak attacks. next begin increasing your AOO to increse the number of attacks you have per round with combat reflexes and robilars gambit. then you are set.
StruckingFuggle 02-29-08, 01:15 AM	What about a Revenant Blade?
SamyMerchi 02-29-08, 11:46 AM	Here are some feats I'm using in my campaign. I haven't paid attention to balance though, so you might want to consider their balance before taking a shine to them. Two-Weapon Equilibrium [General, Fighter] You have learned to counterbalance a weapon with another of the same type. Prerequisites Str 13+, Two-Weapon Fighting, Base Attack Bonus +1 Benefit You may treat an off-hand weapon as a light weapon if you have a weapon of the same type in your primary hand and if that weapon type is normally one-handed for you. Masterwork and magical bonuses do not need to match. Thus, a human could wield a magical longsword and a regular longsword and receive the benefits of a light off-hand weapon. Wielding a longsword and a battleaxe would not receive the benefits of a light off-hand weapon because the two weapons are not of the same type. Normal Using a (non-light) one-handed weapon in your off-hand incurs an extra -2 penalty to two-weapon fighting. Special This feat does not allow two-handed weapons wielded one-handed (such as with the Monkey Grip feat) to be considered light weapons. Two-Weapon Equilibrium, Improved [General, Fighter] You can counterbalance two-handed weapons. Prerequisites Str 13+, Two-Weapon Fighting, Two-Weapon Equilibrium, Monkey Grip, Base Attack Bonus +4 Benefit You receive the benefits of Two-Weapon Equilibrium when two-weapon fighting with two two-handed weapons. The two-handed weapons do not receive the penalty for not being light weapons. Normal Monkey Grip penalties to hit still apply, of course. With this feat, your attack penalties are -4 from Monkey Grip and -2 for a light off-hand weapon. Normal Wielding two two-handed weapons incurs a -4 penalty from Monkey Grip and -4 penalty for not having a light off-hand weapon. Two-Weapon Power [General, Fighter] Your off-hand is stronger. Prerequisites Str 15+, Two-Weapon Fighting Benefit You receive 0.75 times your full strength bonus (rounded down) on all damage rolls with your off-hand weapon. Normal You receive 0.5 times your full strength bonus (rounded down) on all damage rolls with your off-hand weapon. Two-Weapon Power, Improved [General, Fighter] Your off-hand is as strong as your primary hand. Prerequisites Str 15+, Two-Weapon Fighting, Two-Weapon Power Benefit You receive your full strength bonus on all damage rolls with your off-hand weapon. Normal You receive 0.5 times your full strength bonus (rounded down) on all damage rolls with your off-hand weapon.
sn0rb 02-29-08, 12:02 PM	Here's mine, which relies on being human, having a lot of Dex and stuff my DM would barely let me get away with. Level 1-6: Fighter. Level 7-11: Anything with a full BAB progression. Level 1: Two-Weapon Fighting Human: Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Bastard Swords) Fighter 1: Oversized Two-Weapon Fighting (CompAdv) Fighter 2: Two-Weapon Defense Level 3: Dodge Fighter 4: Mobility Level 6: Improved Two-Weapon Fighting Fighter 6: Spring Attack Level 9: Improved Two-Weapon Defense Level 12: Greater Two-Weapon Fighting Level 15: Greater Two-Weapon Defense This makes bastard swords light weapons for this character (but, sadly, not finessable...)
Urithair 02-29-08, 01:45 PM	Like Runestar, only Swordsage/Craven/ShadowBlade
runestar 02-29-08, 10:16 PM	Here's mine, which relies on being human, having a lot of Dex and stuff my DM would barely let me get away with. I don't see why any fair DM would ban this? As far as I can tell, it is a fairly weak build. :confused: You have spring attack, which does not mesh well with TWFing (since it precludes the use of full-attack actions).
sn0rb 03-01-08, 10:50 AM	I don't see why any fair DM would ban this? As far as I can tell, it is a fairly weak build. :confused: You have spring attack, which does not mesh well with TWFing (since it precludes the use of full-attack actions). I think he'd either ban it ("No, you're not going to be some bastard-sword dualwielding psychopath!") or just shrug and say "O...kay,". I'm tempted to try it one day just to see if he'll let me do it. Now, a real build for TWF. Not sure what Dark One of Twilight's DM says regarding multiple PrCs, but I'm rather fond of this one build. The only sticking point is, ask your DM if he'll let you take level-based feats BEFORE picking a class (which this kinda relies on): Str 16 Dex 16 Con 15 Int 14 Wis 14 Cha 16 Human Bonus Feat: Dodge Level 1 (Swashbuckler 1): Two-Weapon Fighting Level 2 (Fighter 1): Mobility Level 3 (Swashbuckler 2): Combat Expertise Level 4 (Swashbuckler 3): +1 Dexterity Level 5 (Swashbuckler 4): Nothing Level 6 (Dervish 1): Weapon Focus (Scimitars) Level 7 (Dervish 2): Nothing Level 8 (Dervish 3): +1 Strength Level 9 (Tempest 1): Improved Two-Weapon Fighting Level 10 (Tempest 2): Nothing Level 11 (Tempest 3): Nothing Level 12 (Tempest 4): +1 Strength, Greater Two-Weapon Fighting Level 13 (Tempest 5): Nothing Level 14 (Dervish 4): Nothing Level 15 (Dervish 5): Dual Strike Level 16 (Dervish 6): +1 Strength Level 17 (Dervish 7): Nothing Level 18 (Dervish 8): Improved Two-Weapon Defense Level 19 (Dervish 9): Nothing Level 20 (Dervish 10): +1 Strength What do we get out of all this? Automatic Weapon Finesse +1 Ref in light armor (Grace +1) * The ability to add your Int mod to damage against living enemies (Insightful Strike) * +3 AC bonus similar to a Monk's * The ability to move your full speed during a full-round attack and add a total of +5 damage with slashing weapons (Dervish Dance) and not be fatigued afterwards (Tireless Dance) * The ability to take 10 on Jump, Perform (Dance), and that all-important Tumble (Movement Mastery) * Scimitars are now light weapons (Slashing Blades) * +15 Speed in light armor (Fast Movement) * The effects of Cleave during your Dervish Dance (Dance of Death) * +2 Initiative (Improved Reaction) * An extra +4 AC while fighting defensively/total defense action (Elaborate Parry) * The ability to double the amount of attacks you can make once per day, and Great Cleave while you're doing it (A Thousand Cuts) * +3 AC while using two weapons (Tempest Defense) * The ability to apply Weapon Focus/Specialization to your other weapon (Two-Weapon Versatility, moot because by this point you're dual-wielding Scimitars.) * The ability to use both weapons during Spring Attack (Two-Weapon Spring Attack) * Aaaaaand last but not least, Ambidexterity (-2/+0). If you're using a one-handed weapon in your off hand, the penalty is now -2 instead of -4. If you're using a light weapon (which a scimitar is, at this point), the TWF penalty is entirely negated. The only weaknesses I see are: Magic's still gonna school you, Dual Strike is too far into the picture to be of any real use (You can Dervish Dance 3/Day by this point), and it's reliant on your DM letting you pick feats before you pick a class.