Overuse of Improved Initiative? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Overuse of Improved Initiative? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Singer_of_the_Song
04-22-07, 11:08 PM I've just written a campaign that takes the PCs from level 1-4. It's pretty heavy on NPC opponents. I've noticed that I have given many of my hostile NPCs improved initiative, especially NPCs that fight the PCs by themselves. Is this poor design? Will this be too hard for my PCs? Am I just being a jerk by doing it?
runestar
04-22-07, 11:21 PM I guess there is a line between "poor game design" and "it is just so good that you have to be a moron not to take it". Improved initiative just happens to fall into the latter...or maybe it is just me...:embarrass
Baron Rod
04-22-07, 11:26 PM It all depends on how you roll initiative. I roll one initiative for my NPCs. So if I want them to have the +4 all of them must have Imp. Initiative. If you roll one initiative and all of them don't have the feat then I would not use it. If you are wasting a feat on all of your NPCs for the +4 then it would be balanced towards your players. Now Unless your NPCs are hired/sent to battle the players you shouldn't build your NPCs with the feats designed to defeat the PCs...

Baron Rod
fatal error
04-22-07, 11:30 PM I guess there is a line between "poor game design" and "it is just so good that you have to be a moron not to take it". Improved initiative just happens to fall into the latter...or maybe it is just me...:embarrass

According to my group, it would be just you. Everyone in my gaming group thinks it is one of the worst feats in the PHB, though they agree it is better than Toughness and Endurance.
Vaelan
04-22-07, 11:38 PM Every opponent should have Improved Initiative at those levels. If they don't get the first action, they probably won't get one at all.
Singer_of_the_Song
04-22-07, 11:48 PM That's kind of what I was thinking.
Vaelan
04-23-07, 03:40 AM Well then I would say, to answer your questions, that it is excellent design, it shouldn't be too hard for the PCs, and you aren't being a jerk.

It is the exact same reason why we have Small opponents for low-level parties. Dexterity bonus? Good because it grants a bonus to initiative. Strength penalty and lower damage due to smaller weapons? Good because it means that they won't use that bonus to initiative to one-shot a PC.

If you're really worried about it, don't use opponents that kill people in one hit.
runestar
04-23-07, 03:50 AM What if that npc was a rogue? Goes first, uses surprise round to snipe with a poisoned crossbow bolt, dealing sneak attack and poison damage.

Or a barb which charges with power attack.

Or a spellcaster who starts combat with web.

However I look at it, for lower lv combat, the people going first have a very big advantage. You aren't all that strong, and can still barely withstand 1 or 2 direct hits. First blood can literally mean last blood as well, if you hit your opponent fast and hard enough to disable him before he can retaliate.:)
Kemev
04-23-07, 04:36 AM It sort of depends.

If your PCs lose initiative on every single encounter they face, they're likely to get frustrated.

That being said, there are classes that are basically built to go first, like rogue or beguiler. Improved initiative is a given in the pre-packaged builds of those characters, and it is reasonable given their mission.

Also, even at low levels, there are abilities available to players to prevent being constantly bushwhacked. Animal companions with scent can provide a heads up on enemies, characters who win spot/listen checks can act in the surprise round, and PCs with combat reflexes can make AoOs even when flat-footed.
Nadaka
04-23-07, 11:28 AM II is a good feat. And that is mostly because its hard to get initiative bonuses from anything else.

The only class I can mention off the top of my head that grants an initiative bonus as a class feature is the Swordsage. And there are IIRC 2 FRCS feats that give a +2 init and some other bonus.
Manic Man
04-23-07, 11:42 AM Improved Initiative is really good for a feat but the dividends won't be visible until ~7th and above for PCs.

At level 1, don't give your opponents improved initiative. You have endless monsters but your party has only so much healing and hp. If every encounter wins initiative and inflicts 5 damage or even crits, well they will find it a lot tougher,

Give toughness for level 1 monsters instead, it helps
tarkin
04-23-07, 12:23 PM Improved Initiative is a good feat, but often not the best.

If you don't know which feat to take or simply just don't want to be bothered picking out the best feat for this minor NPC that you KNOW the PC's are going to kill, often it is simpler just to take Improved Initiative.
Scion of Coldshard
04-23-07, 12:45 PM It likely makes sense for a dm to use it a lot. I think that the dm of my current game is going to start using it more often actually. He seems to be getting frustrated with 4 pc's with a couple of them giving the party initiative boosts and a couple of them already having high dex anyway.

Two of the pc's often have initiatives in the mid 20's, not many creatures are going to beat that with regularity.

Considering that I would be ok with a leader type npc who made himself and all of his followers within a certain range 'take 15' for initiative checks. Less rolling for him, along with the potential to beat out a couple of pc's while still giving everyone a chance to beat them.
Morwen
04-23-07, 12:49 PM I often think about giving my NPCs Improved Initiative, and then decide to remove it after some thought, since it simply doesn't do enough for them. The only NPCs I usually end up giving ImpInit are the ones that also have a high Dex modifier or that cast spells (for those NPCs it actually matters).
Someone
04-23-07, 01:23 PM Which would explain why most of the humanoid monsters in the MM have alertness as their feat. :uh-huh:

An alternative feat for something that would end up soloing the party might be Combat Reflexes.
RobbyPants
04-23-07, 01:34 PM I can see the OPs tendancy to use the feat a lot. This is mainly for two reasons:

If the BBEG is acting alone, and has not had time to buff up, then losing initiative usually means death.
Improved Initiative is one of those useful-to-everyone feats that is at the top of my list to take if I find unused feat slots for my NPCs. I tend to fill those slots with Improved Initiative, or feats that boost saves.

I think it's a good feat, but what makes it good isn't so much its power, but rather that everyone can benifit from it, and it has no prereqs.
ShubNiggurath
04-23-07, 05:49 PM II is good only for players/DM that use poor strategy.
If you are a good strategist, you will get a surprise round anyway, so II will not be really useful compared to, say, ashbound, spell penetration or spell focus.
malignor
04-23-07, 06:10 PM According to my group, it would be just you. Everyone in my gaming group thinks it is one of the worst feats in the PHB, though they agree it is better than Toughness and Endurance.What? I love Endurance. It's not high on my list, but it sure comes in handy. Able to sleep in light armor (counter-ambush strategy), get +4 versus environmental effects, which my DMs love throwing at us. I tell you, when it comes to long-distance running, fighting while you hold your breath underwater or in a gas cloud, being stranded and left for dead in a desert, or stuck in the frozen wastes, Endurance is a life saver!
Thalspar
04-23-07, 07:20 PM What? I love Endurance. It's not high on my list, but it sure comes in handy. Able to sleep in light armor (counter-ambush strategy), get +4 versus environmental effects, which my DMs love throwing at us. I tell you, when it comes to long-distance running, fighting while you hold your breath underwater or in a gas cloud, being stranded and left for dead in a desert, or stuck in the frozen wastes, Endurance is a life saver!

heyr heyr to that
Vaelan
04-23-07, 07:27 PM II is good only for players/DM that use poor strategy.
Or DMs that run creatures that aren't brilliant tacticians. Ever think of that?

If you are a good strategist, you will get a surprise round anyway, so II will not be really useful compared to, say, ashbound, spell penetration or spell focus.
Another action is another action, regardless of surprise rounds.

Also, not all opponents and situations will give either side a surprise round. I know I don't play Black Puddings as though they have 36 Intelligence.
Lixith
04-23-07, 09:34 PM I don't think your being a jerk.... but when you have 5 NPC's to create, and ur doing it quick and don't want to spend 30 min on each... and you're looking for a usefull feat without pouring through 4 books.... ya... Improved Init... all the way.
Dark1ord
04-24-07, 01:57 PM What? I love Endurance. It's not high on my list, but it sure comes in handy. Able to sleep in light armor (counter-ambush strategy)bet you mean "medium armor":
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#endurance
"Also, you may sleep in light or medium armor without becoming fatigued."
"A character without this feat who sleeps in medium or heavier armor is automatically fatigued the next day."

you've already got the light armor sleeping goodness.

yes, I like endurance too. :)
runestar
04-24-07, 11:13 PM I agree that it is one of those feats you can just take and forget. Like weapon focus/spec, improved toughness, improved initiative etc. No need to worry about keeping track of what they do, since they have already been factored into their stats. Useful for streamlining your npcs and keeping them simply to run. Just move and attack. :)

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Singer_of_the_Song 04-22-07, 11:08 PM	I've just written a campaign that takes the PCs from level 1-4. It's pretty heavy on NPC opponents. I've noticed that I have given many of my hostile NPCs improved initiative, especially NPCs that fight the PCs by themselves. Is this poor design? Will this be too hard for my PCs? Am I just being a jerk by doing it?
runestar 04-22-07, 11:21 PM	I guess there is a line between "poor game design" and "it is just so good that you have to be a moron not to take it". Improved initiative just happens to fall into the latter...or maybe it is just me...:embarrass
Baron Rod 04-22-07, 11:26 PM	It all depends on how you roll initiative. I roll one initiative for my NPCs. So if I want them to have the +4 all of them must have Imp. Initiative. If you roll one initiative and all of them don't have the feat then I would not use it. If you are wasting a feat on all of your NPCs for the +4 then it would be balanced towards your players. Now Unless your NPCs are hired/sent to battle the players you shouldn't build your NPCs with the feats designed to defeat the PCs... Baron Rod
fatal error 04-22-07, 11:30 PM	I guess there is a line between "poor game design" and "it is just so good that you have to be a moron not to take it". Improved initiative just happens to fall into the latter...or maybe it is just me...:embarrass According to my group, it would be just you. Everyone in my gaming group thinks it is one of the worst feats in the PHB, though they agree it is better than Toughness and Endurance.
Vaelan 04-22-07, 11:38 PM	Every opponent should have Improved Initiative at those levels. If they don't get the first action, they probably won't get one at all.
Singer_of_the_Song 04-22-07, 11:48 PM	That's kind of what I was thinking.
Vaelan 04-23-07, 03:40 AM	Well then I would say, to answer your questions, that it is excellent design, it shouldn't be too hard for the PCs, and you aren't being a jerk. It is the exact same reason why we have Small opponents for low-level parties. Dexterity bonus? Good because it grants a bonus to initiative. Strength penalty and lower damage due to smaller weapons? Good because it means that they won't use that bonus to initiative to one-shot a PC. If you're really worried about it, don't use opponents that kill people in one hit.
runestar 04-23-07, 03:50 AM	What if that npc was a rogue? Goes first, uses surprise round to snipe with a poisoned crossbow bolt, dealing sneak attack and poison damage. Or a barb which charges with power attack. Or a spellcaster who starts combat with web. However I look at it, for lower lv combat, the people going first have a very big advantage. You aren't all that strong, and can still barely withstand 1 or 2 direct hits. First blood can literally mean last blood as well, if you hit your opponent fast and hard enough to disable him before he can retaliate.:)
Kemev 04-23-07, 04:36 AM	It sort of depends. If your PCs lose initiative on every single encounter they face, they're likely to get frustrated. That being said, there are classes that are basically built to go first, like rogue or beguiler. Improved initiative is a given in the pre-packaged builds of those characters, and it is reasonable given their mission. Also, even at low levels, there are abilities available to players to prevent being constantly bushwhacked. Animal companions with scent can provide a heads up on enemies, characters who win spot/listen checks can act in the surprise round, and PCs with combat reflexes can make AoOs even when flat-footed.
Nadaka 04-23-07, 11:28 AM	II is a good feat. And that is mostly because its hard to get initiative bonuses from anything else. The only class I can mention off the top of my head that grants an initiative bonus as a class feature is the Swordsage. And there are IIRC 2 FRCS feats that give a +2 init and some other bonus.
Manic Man 04-23-07, 11:42 AM	Improved Initiative is really good for a feat but the dividends won't be visible until ~7th and above for PCs. At level 1, don't give your opponents improved initiative. You have endless monsters but your party has only so much healing and hp. If every encounter wins initiative and inflicts 5 damage or even crits, well they will find it a lot tougher, Give toughness for level 1 monsters instead, it helps
tarkin 04-23-07, 12:23 PM	Improved Initiative is a good feat, but often not the best. If you don't know which feat to take or simply just don't want to be bothered picking out the best feat for this minor NPC that you KNOW the PC's are going to kill, often it is simpler just to take Improved Initiative.
Scion of Coldshard 04-23-07, 12:45 PM	It likely makes sense for a dm to use it a lot. I think that the dm of my current game is going to start using it more often actually. He seems to be getting frustrated with 4 pc's with a couple of them giving the party initiative boosts and a couple of them already having high dex anyway. Two of the pc's often have initiatives in the mid 20's, not many creatures are going to beat that with regularity. Considering that I would be ok with a leader type npc who made himself and all of his followers within a certain range 'take 15' for initiative checks. Less rolling for him, along with the potential to beat out a couple of pc's while still giving everyone a chance to beat them.
Morwen 04-23-07, 12:49 PM	I often think about giving my NPCs Improved Initiative, and then decide to remove it after some thought, since it simply doesn't do enough for them. The only NPCs I usually end up giving ImpInit are the ones that also have a high Dex modifier or that cast spells (for those NPCs it actually matters).
Someone 04-23-07, 01:23 PM	Which would explain why most of the humanoid monsters in the MM have alertness as their feat. :uh-huh: An alternative feat for something that would end up soloing the party might be Combat Reflexes.
RobbyPants 04-23-07, 01:34 PM	I can see the OPs tendancy to use the feat a lot. This is mainly for two reasons: If the BBEG is acting alone, and has not had time to buff up, then losing initiative usually means death. Improved Initiative is one of those useful-to-everyone feats that is at the top of my list to take if I find unused feat slots for my NPCs. I tend to fill those slots with Improved Initiative, or feats that boost saves. I think it's a good feat, but what makes it good isn't so much its power, but rather that everyone can benifit from it, and it has no prereqs.
ShubNiggurath 04-23-07, 05:49 PM	II is good only for players/DM that use poor strategy. If you are a good strategist, you will get a surprise round anyway, so II will not be really useful compared to, say, ashbound, spell penetration or spell focus.
malignor 04-23-07, 06:10 PM	According to my group, it would be just you. Everyone in my gaming group thinks it is one of the worst feats in the PHB, though they agree it is better than Toughness and Endurance.What? I love Endurance. It's not high on my list, but it sure comes in handy. Able to sleep in light armor (counter-ambush strategy), get +4 versus environmental effects, which my DMs love throwing at us. I tell you, when it comes to long-distance running, fighting while you hold your breath underwater or in a gas cloud, being stranded and left for dead in a desert, or stuck in the frozen wastes, Endurance is a life saver!
Thalspar 04-23-07, 07:20 PM	What? I love Endurance. It's not high on my list, but it sure comes in handy. Able to sleep in light armor (counter-ambush strategy), get +4 versus environmental effects, which my DMs love throwing at us. I tell you, when it comes to long-distance running, fighting while you hold your breath underwater or in a gas cloud, being stranded and left for dead in a desert, or stuck in the frozen wastes, Endurance is a life saver! heyr heyr to that
Vaelan 04-23-07, 07:27 PM	II is good only for players/DM that use poor strategy. Or DMs that run creatures that aren't brilliant tacticians. Ever think of that? If you are a good strategist, you will get a surprise round anyway, so II will not be really useful compared to, say, ashbound, spell penetration or spell focus. Another action is another action, regardless of surprise rounds. Also, not all opponents and situations will give either side a surprise round. I know I don't play Black Puddings as though they have 36 Intelligence.
Lixith 04-23-07, 09:34 PM	I don't think your being a jerk.... but when you have 5 NPC's to create, and ur doing it quick and don't want to spend 30 min on each... and you're looking for a usefull feat without pouring through 4 books.... ya... Improved Init... all the way.
Dark1ord 04-24-07, 01:57 PM	What? I love Endurance. It's not high on my list, but it sure comes in handy. Able to sleep in light armor (counter-ambush strategy)bet you mean "medium armor": http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#endurance "Also, you may sleep in light or medium armor without becoming fatigued." "A character without this feat who sleeps in medium or heavier armor is automatically fatigued the next day." you've already got the light armor sleeping goodness. yes, I like endurance too. :)
runestar 04-24-07, 11:13 PM	I agree that it is one of those feats you can just take and forget. Like weapon focus/spec, improved toughness, improved initiative etc. No need to worry about keeping track of what they do, since they have already been factored into their stats. Useful for streamlining your npcs and keeping them simply to run. Just move and attack. :)