Post/Author/DateTime	Post
FrostHammer 03-12-07, 04:41 AM	Do you feel that there is a lot of potential for the feat Versatile Spellcaster (let's you use two spells slots of level X to cast a spell of level x+1) when you've got so many a class with as many spell slots as Ultimate Magus? Beguiler/Wizard into Ultimate Magus for the win!
tarkin 03-12-07, 11:26 AM	Versatile spellcaster does not strike me as all that impressive. It is expensive. For example, generally, I would rather cast two 8th level spells than a 9th level spell. I can think of few levels where that is usually worth it. Not even level 0, I can't see giving up too many Detect Magics and Read Magics. Any Ultimate Magus will always be 3 full levels behind a pure Wizard. That is, assuming they take at least 5 levels of Ultimate Magus, they will not be able to cast 9th level spells until level 20. It's main advantage is the metamagic feats, which themselves cost you multiple spells. If you use your spells to get a higher levle one and also do the metamagic feat stuff, you will run out of spells. P.S. Versatile caster is not entirely clear about certain things. As a DM, I would also expect the following; Strict Game only: You can only combine spells for spontaneous casting classes, not for spells that you prepare. Loose/Power/Anything Goes: If you have the feat, you can use it for any spell, even ones that you prepare. Strict or Loose Game: You can not combine spells from two different classes, they must be of the same class, and the spell you cast must be from that class, not another class. Power: You can combine spells from different classes, the spell you use it for can be of either class. Anything Goes: You can combine spells from different classes, the spell you use it for can be of any class you know.
Merestil Haye 03-12-07, 01:16 PM	I'm not that fond of Ultimate Magus because for all the benefits you have to give up 9th level spells in both classes, as far as I can tell. You can meet all bar one of the entry requirements by level 4 - say Wiz 3 / Sor 1. The problem is that you can't meet the Spellcraft prereq until 5th level so you'll be either Wiz 4/Sor 1 or Wiz 3/Sor 2. In either case, after taking all ten levels of UM you will have the spellcasting capacity of a Wiz 11/Sor 11 at character level 15. (Your caster level will be 15 for both classes.) This means that the best you can do with spellcasting is to get one of the classes to a capacity of 16 - ie 8th level spells. Depending on how your DM reads the text of the Spellcasting class ability, you may be able to tweak this result and get 9th level spells with the preparing class, at the sacrifice of spellcasting capacity for the spontaneous class. This demands that you take a metamagic feat and Practiced Spellcaster by 3rd level (since you select class before feat(s)). This would see you with the spellcasting capacity of Wiz 13/Sor 9 at the end of the UM progression (and a CL of 17 in both classes) - in theory you could get 9th level Wizard and 5th level Sorcerer spells. (You can substitute pretty much any spontaneous arcane caster other than Bard for Sorcerer and the results are the same). I assume Versatile Spellcaster is in PHB2, which I don't have available so I can't comment on that.
StevenO 03-12-07, 02:44 PM	Although I'd have to find Versatile Spellcaster I would presume that both spells given up must be the exact same type (ie. from the same casting progression) to use a higher level spell of that same type. That is to say having multiple spells don't help that much when they are of different types. As for the Ultimate Magus, to maximize the class you really do need to use the practiced spellcaster "trick" to weigh the class more one way or the other. If mixing Wizard and Sorcerer I'd be happy giving up 2 wizard caster levels for the 4th level spells of a Sorcerer 9; using those 4th level spontaneos spells to apply +4 level metamagics to 5th level spells should make up for the loss of a few 9th level spells. With UM you should usually end up with casting abilities 18/9 if wizard heavy or 17/10 with either side being the high one at 20th level.
FrostHammer 03-12-07, 07:53 PM	Bah, I need to go check out the UM handbook. I think there is a preliminary version now...