Paladin and Force of Personality [Archive] - Wizards Community

Paladin and Force of Personality [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
pukunui
12-20-07, 06:29 AM Hi all,

Quick question: can a paladin benefit from the Force of Personality feat (CAdv)? That is to say, can they apply their CHA modifier to their Will save twice?

In my campaign world, I've converted the paladin to a spontaneous caster (uses the spellthief's spells known progression). To lessen the MAD a bit, I changed their casting stat to CHA (since virtually everything else the paladin does is CHA-based anyway, it makes sense ...). This means that a paladin can dump WIS. That's what one of my players has done (WIS 7).

He thought he'd take Force of Personality since his CHA is 18 (20 w/ a cloak of charisma +2) and get a +4 boost to his Will save instead of a -2 penalty. However, the paladin already adds his CHA modifier to all saves thanks to divine grace or whatever. So can he add his CHA modifier to Will saves twice?

Thanks in advance.

Cheers,
Jonathan
Greco
12-20-07, 06:52 AM I was thinking of this exact question yesterday. I would say no because devine grace already gives the Paladin + ChaMod to all saves it would be over kill to grant it again with force of Personality.

In the ToB it says the Indominatable soul which I believe was suppose to say Force of personality because the feat and the class ability are one in the same declares it doesn't stack.
ff6shadow
12-20-07, 06:56 AM Works just fine. Divine Grace gives his Charisma modifier as an unamed bonus to saves. Force of Personality does the same. Unamed bonuses always stack, except for when they come from the same source. One bonus is given by Force of Personality, the other by Divine Grace.
Rebel581
12-20-07, 06:56 AM Force of Personality doesn't add anything to the Will save. It allows you to use your Cha instead of your Wis. So it is not the same as Indomitable Will or Divine Grace in any way or form. It is more similar to Weapon Finesse.

It would work.
pukunui
12-20-07, 06:57 AM I was thinking of this exact question yesterday. I would say no because devine grace already gives the Paladin + ChaMod to all saves it would be over kill to grant it again with force of Personality.

In the ToB it says the Indominatable soul which I believe was suppose to say Force of personality because the feat and the class ability are one in the same declares it doesn't stack.Thanks guys.

@ff6shadow: couldn't you argue that they do come from the same source since they're both coming from his CHA stat?
Rebel581
12-20-07, 07:11 AM OK. The reason I asked is because divine grace provides a CHA-based bonus to saves, while the Force of Personality feat actually changes the key stat tied to Will saves from WIS to CHA, so the base modifier changes and then divine grace could potentially add the CHA modifier on again on top as a bonus.

EDIT: Ah, some other people responded while I was typing this. Thanks guys.

@ff6shadow: couldn't you argue that they do come from the same source since they're both coming from his CHA stat?

Same source refers to the ability that gave the result. They may both come from Charisma, but they come from Charisma in different ways. What it's referring to is saying that you can't have the AC Bonus of a Monk and a Ninja stack, even though those bonuses stack with every other bonus.

EDIT: Bah, you changed your post. I'm not changing my quote though.
Tedronai
12-20-07, 07:12 AM Do note that Force of Personality does NOT allow you to use Cha on ALL Will saves, just those against mind-affecting spells and abilities. That might include the typically most dangerous will-based effects, but not all of them by all means (Inflict/Harm effects come easily to mind)
Greco
12-20-07, 07:18 AM OK. The reason I asked is because divine grace provides a CHA-based bonus to saves, while the Force of Personality feat actually changes the key stat tied to Will saves from WIS to CHA, so the base modifier changes and then divine grace could potentially add the CHA modifier on again on top as a bonus.

EDIT: Ah, some other people responded while I was typing this. Thanks guys.

@ff6shadow: couldn't you argue that they do come from the same source since they're both coming from his CHA stat?

DUH. No kidding the force of personality switches WIS with CHAR. I just miss read the IS class feature. If you want to do it fine, but don't do it because people claim that the bonus is coming from unnamed sources because it is coming from the same source twice you're ability mod for charisma. So NO it should not work.

If people want to argue this go for it and think of it this way:

Normal: Base save + Wis mod + divine grace( Char mod)
FofP : Base save + Char mod + divine grace (Char mod)

It's like saying Amulet of Natural Armor stacks with Racial Natural armor
pukunui
12-20-07, 07:21 AM Do note that Force of Personality does NOT allow you to use Cha on ALL Will saves, just those against mind-affecting spells and abilities. That might include the typically most dangerous will-based effects, but not all of them by all means (Inflict/Harm effects come easily to mind)Yes I just noticed that. That's why I edited my post.

It's like saying Amulet of Natural Armor stacks with Racial Natural armorDon't they? The amulet provides an enhancement bonus to natural armor, whereas racial natural armor is just that. It's not an enhancement.
Rebel581
12-20-07, 07:32 AM No, they're the same bonus. So Natural Armor doesn't stack with Natural Armor. You use whichever source gave you the highest mod.

Although that doesn't apply to this... and you aren't stacking the two because they're unnamed bonuses either.
ff6shadow
12-20-07, 07:44 AM Rebel is right. The source is the ability granting the bonus. You said Charisma is 20. In this case, Force of Personality provides a +5 bonus to Will saves for certain effects in place of the normal wisdom modifier. Divine Grace provides a +5 bonus to all saves. Two different sources, unamed bonuses, so they stack.

However, an amulet of natual armor does stack with a persons natural armor. An Amulet of Natural Armor provides an enhancement bonus to natural armor.
runestar
12-20-07, 07:57 AM No, they're the same bonus. So Natural Armor doesn't stack with Natural Armor. You use whichever source gave you the highest mod.

Although that doesn't apply to this... and you aren't stacking the two because they're unnamed bonuses either.

If you want to argue, at least get your facts right.

Unnamed bonuses stack, unless they are from the same source. Even if this were the case (which is not really relevant), you are getting one unnamed bonus from divine grace, and a 2nd unnamed bonus from force of personality, so they are from 2 separate and very different sources.

Amulet of NA grants an enhancement bonus to natural armour, which will stack with the base natural armour a creature has. For example, a kobold (NA+1) gets full benefit from an amulet of NA+5, for a total NA of +6.

I see no reason why it would not work. If you allow your wis mod to apply to will saves on top of divine grace (duh...:P ), your cha mod would apply in place of your wis against the appropriate spells.

All I have seen are arguments as to why they should not stack, which are, IMO, rather flimsy, rather than actual rules arguments are to why it would not work as per the RAW.:rolleyes:
Greco
12-20-07, 08:17 AM I don't mean to create a circled argument out of this just for my own understanding.

Grace enhances your saves from the Named Bonus Char Mod.
The FofP which lets you add you Named Bonus Char Mod even though it is triggered by seperate events still stack even though the sources are named.

To clearify I understand the general +2 to fear and what not are unnamed bounes and the feats that add to Initiatve like improved initative and others like keen eared scout stack. I think I might be getting what your trying to indicate with thinking through the Initative, but the FofP is directly taking the added bonus directly from your Charisma modifier while feats are direct bonuses to initiative that are not really considered named.

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20040120a
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20040127a
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20040203a
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20040210a
Greco
12-20-07, 09:34 AM If you want to argue, at least get your facts right.

Amulet of NA grants an enhancement bonus to natural armour, which will stack with the base natural armour a creature has. For example, a kobold (NA+1) gets full benefit from an amulet of NA+5, for a total NA of +6.

I see no reason why it would not work. If you allow your wis mod to apply to will saves on top of divine grace (duh...:P ), your cha mod would apply in place of your wis against the appropriate spells.

All I have seen are arguments as to why they should not stack, which are, IMO, rather flimsy, rather than actual rules arguments are to why it would not work as per the RAW.:rolleyes:

He did get his facts straight. You didn't.

Char Mod can be added to Wis mod for Will much like Wis to AC is added to Dex to AC because they are completely different sources. Char Mod depends on Charisma and Wis Mod on Wisdom they are completely different sources. Natural armor enchantment of race is the same as amulet NA. The difference with bark skin it specifies enchanment to existing NA.

I may have been wrong about the EofP because it uses the Charisma Modifer while Grace uses a bonus based on charisma, but I still argue that it doesn't stack because why would you take a feat that would give you negatives to a will save against a large range of mind altering affects. Though there are some will saves that don't include mind altering affects I can see the bases of the argument to allow the combination of the two.

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20040120a
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20040127a
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20040203a
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20040210a
strenoth
12-20-07, 10:13 AM the SOURCE of the saves in this question are the feat and Divine Grace.

The VALUES assigned to those sources are set by the charisma modifier, but the bonuses themselves come from two different sources.
Jaxgaret
12-20-07, 11:05 AM FoP and DG stack. End of story.

They don't even have the same effect. It would be ludicrous for them not to stack.
Avatar of Kokusho
12-20-07, 11:15 AM Considering that Divine Grace and Force of Personality are completely different things, they should stack. Or are you all for disallowing the poor paladin from adding his Con to Fortitude, etc? The feat merely allows the use of a nother stat modifier in place of the one normally used against specific forms of mental assault. It's limited and nowhere nears as good as I thought it was when I glanced over it the first time (Yes, I read it was "to Will saves", skipping the part about mind-affecting) It's made for characters who pump into Cha because it's a good stat for their class (spontaneous casters, marshals, paladins). No different from the other feats that allow the same thing for other saving throws.
pukunui
12-20-07, 02:57 PM OK, I'm going with the "they do stack" side of the story. However, my player may not want the feat after all (when I told him about it, I forgot that it was conditional, so he was thinking that he'd be able to use his good CHA mod instead of his bad WIS mod for all Will saves ...).

I'm now more interested in resolving the natural armor debate, even though it's off-topic. As far as I'm concerned, a magical enhancement bonus to natural armor does stack with a creature's base natural armor (which is not a magical enhancement bonus). Can someone show me a reference in the rules that states otherwise?
Jaxgaret
12-20-07, 06:03 PM my player may not want the feat after all (when I told him about it, I forgot that it was conditional, so he was thinking that he'd be able to use his good CHA mod instead of his bad WIS mod for all Will saves ...).

It would be an overall +7 to Will saves vs. mind-effecting effects, correct (-2 vs. +5)? And it would get even higher with stronger cloaks. It's probably worth it, even as one of very few feats a Paladin gets. The percentage of Will saves that aren't covered by FoP is IIRC not that large.

I'm now more interested in resolving the natural armor debate, even though it's off-topic. As far as I'm concerned, a magical enhancement bonus to natural armor does stack with a creature's base natural armor (which is not a magical enhancement bonus). Can someone show me a reference in the rules that states otherwise?

A natural armor bonus improves Armor Class resulting from a creature's naturally tough hide. Natural armor bonuses stack with all other bonuses to Armor Class (even with armor bonuses) except other natural armor bonuses. Some magical effects (such as the barkskin spell) grant an enhancement bonus to the creature's existing natural armor bonus, which has the effect of increasing the natural armor's overall bonus to Armor Class. A natural armor bonus doesn't apply against touch attacks.

Racial NA stacks with magical NA.

To make this really simple: treat creatures without NA (such as the PHB races) as considered as having racial NA +0. If enhancement NA bonuses did not stack with racial NA, then enhancement NA bonuses would not work for any character.
pukunui
12-20-07, 07:21 PM It would be an overall +7 to Will saves vs. mind-effecting effects, correct (-2 vs. +5)? And it would get even higher with stronger cloaks. It's probably worth it, even as one of very few feats a Paladin gets. The percentage of Will saves that aren't covered by FoP is IIRC not that large.He's decided to take Ride-By Attack instead though.

Racial NA stacks with magical NA.

To make this really simple: treat creatures without NA (such as the PHB races) as considered as having racial NA +0. If enhancement NA bonuses did not stack with racial NA, then enhancement NA bonuses would not work for any character.That's what I thought. I was very confused when people started saying that it didn't stack. I knew it said something somewhere about PHB races being considered as having NA +0 but I couldn't remember where exactly ...

The reason I thought it was relevant to resolve is because my player has a unicorn mount (+6 natural armor) and he wanted to give it an amulet of natural armor +1. I knew it stacked (that's what e-Tools was telling me too although it gets it wrong often enough as well ... it incorrectly applies natural armor bonuses to Touch AC, for instance).
zeratulcraft
12-20-07, 07:51 PM Be a Paladin of Freedom and just be immune to all mind-affecting effects.
pukunui
12-20-07, 08:21 PM Be a Paladin of Freedom and just be immune to all mind-affecting effects.
:heehee I just love it when people make these sorts of suggestions: "just get x/y/z magic item" or "just be x/y/z race/class" ... as if no DM ever put any restrictions on anything and everyone has access to absolutely everything that's ever been written for 3.5. What's even funnier is when the suggestion is put to the DM rather than the player, which makes it pretty obvious that the person suggesting it didn't read the whole thread ... :rolleyes:

Anyway, I'll suggest it to him (because a CG paladin would fit into the party theme better) but I don't think he'll be keen on losing Diplomacy as a class skill.
joshmvii
12-21-07, 04:38 AM Some people in here are misunderstanding what "sources" mean I think. You're saying they both let you use charisma for something, so the source is the same and they don't stack.

The sources in question are Divine Grace, a class feature, and Force of Personality, a feat. Clearly these are two different sources that both allow charisma for something. Beyond that, they are unnamed bonuses, which will clearly stack. The only way this wouldn't work is if they both were listed as insight bonuses, or sacred bonuses, or whatever.

Saying these two things don't stack is like saying a Monk can't add his wisdom to his AC and his will save in the same turn, because both things are getting a bonus from his wisdom mod which is one source. This is a further extreme, but 'all saves' and 'saves versus mind affecting etc.' are two different things.

Of course, the argument is over before it begins when you just realize the feat and class bonus are two different sources that both give an unnamed bonus.
mplindustries
12-21-07, 06:26 AM Force of personality - I don't know if its OGL so I won't quote it, but it lets you use your Charisma bonus instead of your Wisdom bonus under certain circumstances. This is unequivocally your Charisma bonus that is being added to Will saves. The name of the bonus is "Charisma." It will absolutely not stack with any other bonus named "Charisma."

Divine Grace (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/paladin.htm): "At 2nd level, a paladin gains a bonus equal to her Charisma bonus (if any) on all saving throws." This is "a bonus." It has no name. The only name it could even possibly have is "Divine Grace." The bonus is equal to your Charisma bonus, but is in fact not your Charisma bonus. It is a separate and (probably) unnamed bonus the actual value of which is derived from your Charisma bonus.

In summation:
1) They are not both unnamed bonuses. Your Charisma bonus has a name.
2) Divine Grace's bonus, however, does not have a name despite the fact that its value is equal to another bonus that does have a name (And though it could be argued its name is "Divine Grace," that name is still not "Charisma").
3) "Is" and "is equal to" are not the same thing.
4) Force of Personality and Divine Grace stack. Period. End of Discussion.
narack
12-21-07, 07:56 AM Force of Personality = Normal Bonus
Divine Grace = Divine Bonus

Normal bonuses stacks with Divine bonuses
strenoth
12-21-07, 11:08 AM Seeing as how there is no such thing as a 'charisma bonus' as a TYPE of bonus (if it was, it would be in the DMG under the listing of possible types of bonuses), and there is no type listed, it is in fact still an unnamed bonus equal to your charisma modifier, Minimum zero.

Which is what is actually meant when the phrase "[ability score] bonus" is used, though i can not remember exactly where that is stated, but it was laid out pretty explicitly some where. "[ability score] bonus" refferences your positive modifier, but the [ability score] part of it references it's source, not it's Type. All ability scores provide unnamed bonuses or penalties to what ever they modify.

But I suppose that's nitpicking a bit in this argument, as we agree in the end that the feat & divine Grace stack.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
pukunui 12-20-07, 06:29 AM	Hi all, Quick question: can a paladin benefit from the Force of Personality feat (CAdv)? That is to say, can they apply their CHA modifier to their Will save twice? In my campaign world, I've converted the paladin to a spontaneous caster (uses the spellthief's spells known progression). To lessen the MAD a bit, I changed their casting stat to CHA (since virtually everything else the paladin does is CHA-based anyway, it makes sense ...). This means that a paladin can dump WIS. That's what one of my players has done (WIS 7). He thought he'd take Force of Personality since his CHA is 18 (20 w/ a cloak of charisma +2) and get a +4 boost to his Will save instead of a -2 penalty. However, the paladin already adds his CHA modifier to all saves thanks to divine grace or whatever. So can he add his CHA modifier to Will saves twice? Thanks in advance. Cheers, Jonathan
Greco 12-20-07, 06:52 AM	I was thinking of this exact question yesterday. I would say no because devine grace already gives the Paladin + ChaMod to all saves it would be over kill to grant it again with force of Personality. In the ToB it says the Indominatable soul which I believe was suppose to say Force of personality because the feat and the class ability are one in the same declares it doesn't stack.
ff6shadow 12-20-07, 06:56 AM	Works just fine. Divine Grace gives his Charisma modifier as an unamed bonus to saves. Force of Personality does the same. Unamed bonuses always stack, except for when they come from the same source. One bonus is given by Force of Personality, the other by Divine Grace.
Rebel581 12-20-07, 06:56 AM	Force of Personality doesn't add anything to the Will save. It allows you to use your Cha instead of your Wis. So it is not the same as Indomitable Will or Divine Grace in any way or form. It is more similar to Weapon Finesse. It would work.
pukunui 12-20-07, 06:57 AM	I was thinking of this exact question yesterday. I would say no because devine grace already gives the Paladin + ChaMod to all saves it would be over kill to grant it again with force of Personality. In the ToB it says the Indominatable soul which I believe was suppose to say Force of personality because the feat and the class ability are one in the same declares it doesn't stack.Thanks guys. @ff6shadow: couldn't you argue that they do come from the same source since they're both coming from his CHA stat?
Rebel581 12-20-07, 07:11 AM	OK. The reason I asked is because divine grace provides a CHA-based bonus to saves, while the Force of Personality feat actually changes the key stat tied to Will saves from WIS to CHA, so the base modifier changes and then divine grace could potentially add the CHA modifier on again on top as a bonus. EDIT: Ah, some other people responded while I was typing this. Thanks guys. @ff6shadow: couldn't you argue that they do come from the same source since they're both coming from his CHA stat? Same source refers to the ability that gave the result. They may both come from Charisma, but they come from Charisma in different ways. What it's referring to is saying that you can't have the AC Bonus of a Monk and a Ninja stack, even though those bonuses stack with every other bonus. EDIT: Bah, you changed your post. I'm not changing my quote though.
Tedronai 12-20-07, 07:12 AM	Do note that Force of Personality does NOT allow you to use Cha on ALL Will saves, just those against mind-affecting spells and abilities. That might include the typically most dangerous will-based effects, but not all of them by all means (Inflict/Harm effects come easily to mind)
Greco 12-20-07, 07:18 AM	OK. The reason I asked is because divine grace provides a CHA-based bonus to saves, while the Force of Personality feat actually changes the key stat tied to Will saves from WIS to CHA, so the base modifier changes and then divine grace could potentially add the CHA modifier on again on top as a bonus. EDIT: Ah, some other people responded while I was typing this. Thanks guys. @ff6shadow: couldn't you argue that they do come from the same source since they're both coming from his CHA stat? DUH. No kidding the force of personality switches WIS with CHAR. I just miss read the IS class feature. If you want to do it fine, but don't do it because people claim that the bonus is coming from unnamed sources because it is coming from the same source twice you're ability mod for charisma. So NO it should not work. If people want to argue this go for it and think of it this way: Normal: Base save + Wis mod + divine grace( Char mod) FofP : Base save + Char mod + divine grace (Char mod) It's like saying Amulet of Natural Armor stacks with Racial Natural armor
pukunui 12-20-07, 07:21 AM	Do note that Force of Personality does NOT allow you to use Cha on ALL Will saves, just those against mind-affecting spells and abilities. That might include the typically most dangerous will-based effects, but not all of them by all means (Inflict/Harm effects come easily to mind)Yes I just noticed that. That's why I edited my post. It's like saying Amulet of Natural Armor stacks with Racial Natural armorDon't they? The amulet provides an enhancement bonus to natural armor, whereas racial natural armor is just that. It's not an enhancement.
Rebel581 12-20-07, 07:32 AM	No, they're the same bonus. So Natural Armor doesn't stack with Natural Armor. You use whichever source gave you the highest mod. Although that doesn't apply to this... and you aren't stacking the two because they're unnamed bonuses either.
ff6shadow 12-20-07, 07:44 AM	Rebel is right. The source is the ability granting the bonus. You said Charisma is 20. In this case, Force of Personality provides a +5 bonus to Will saves for certain effects in place of the normal wisdom modifier. Divine Grace provides a +5 bonus to all saves. Two different sources, unamed bonuses, so they stack. However, an amulet of natual armor does stack with a persons natural armor. An Amulet of Natural Armor provides an enhancement bonus to natural armor.
runestar 12-20-07, 07:57 AM	No, they're the same bonus. So Natural Armor doesn't stack with Natural Armor. You use whichever source gave you the highest mod. Although that doesn't apply to this... and you aren't stacking the two because they're unnamed bonuses either. If you want to argue, at least get your facts right. Unnamed bonuses stack, unless they are from the same source. Even if this were the case (which is not really relevant), you are getting one unnamed bonus from divine grace, and a 2nd unnamed bonus from force of personality, so they are from 2 separate and very different sources. Amulet of NA grants an enhancement bonus to natural armour, which will stack with the base natural armour a creature has. For example, a kobold (NA+1) gets full benefit from an amulet of NA+5, for a total NA of +6. I see no reason why it would not work. If you allow your wis mod to apply to will saves on top of divine grace (duh...:P ), your cha mod would apply in place of your wis against the appropriate spells. All I have seen are arguments as to why they should not stack, which are, IMO, rather flimsy, rather than actual rules arguments are to why it would not work as per the RAW.:rolleyes:
Greco 12-20-07, 08:17 AM	I don't mean to create a circled argument out of this just for my own understanding. Grace enhances your saves from the Named Bonus Char Mod. The FofP which lets you add you Named Bonus Char Mod even though it is triggered by seperate events still stack even though the sources are named. To clearify I understand the general +2 to fear and what not are unnamed bounes and the feats that add to Initiatve like improved initative and others like keen eared scout stack. I think I might be getting what your trying to indicate with thinking through the Initative, but the FofP is directly taking the added bonus directly from your Charisma modifier while feats are direct bonuses to initiative that are not really considered named. http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20040120a http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20040127a http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20040203a http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20040210a
Greco 12-20-07, 09:34 AM	If you want to argue, at least get your facts right. Amulet of NA grants an enhancement bonus to natural armour, which will stack with the base natural armour a creature has. For example, a kobold (NA+1) gets full benefit from an amulet of NA+5, for a total NA of +6. I see no reason why it would not work. If you allow your wis mod to apply to will saves on top of divine grace (duh...:P ), your cha mod would apply in place of your wis against the appropriate spells. All I have seen are arguments as to why they should not stack, which are, IMO, rather flimsy, rather than actual rules arguments are to why it would not work as per the RAW.:rolleyes: He did get his facts straight. You didn't. Char Mod can be added to Wis mod for Will much like Wis to AC is added to Dex to AC because they are completely different sources. Char Mod depends on Charisma and Wis Mod on Wisdom they are completely different sources. Natural armor enchantment of race is the same as amulet NA. The difference with bark skin it specifies enchanment to existing NA. I may have been wrong about the EofP because it uses the Charisma Modifer while Grace uses a bonus based on charisma, but I still argue that it doesn't stack because why would you take a feat that would give you negatives to a will save against a large range of mind altering affects. Though there are some will saves that don't include mind altering affects I can see the bases of the argument to allow the combination of the two. http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20040120a http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20040127a http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20040203a http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20040210a
strenoth 12-20-07, 10:13 AM	the SOURCE of the saves in this question are the feat and Divine Grace. The VALUES assigned to those sources are set by the charisma modifier, but the bonuses themselves come from two different sources.
Jaxgaret 12-20-07, 11:05 AM	FoP and DG stack. End of story. They don't even have the same effect. It would be ludicrous for them not to stack.
Avatar of Kokusho 12-20-07, 11:15 AM	Considering that Divine Grace and Force of Personality are completely different things, they should stack. Or are you all for disallowing the poor paladin from adding his Con to Fortitude, etc? The feat merely allows the use of a nother stat modifier in place of the one normally used against specific forms of mental assault. It's limited and nowhere nears as good as I thought it was when I glanced over it the first time (Yes, I read it was "to Will saves", skipping the part about mind-affecting) It's made for characters who pump into Cha because it's a good stat for their class (spontaneous casters, marshals, paladins). No different from the other feats that allow the same thing for other saving throws.
pukunui 12-20-07, 02:57 PM	OK, I'm going with the "they do stack" side of the story. However, my player may not want the feat after all (when I told him about it, I forgot that it was conditional, so he was thinking that he'd be able to use his good CHA mod instead of his bad WIS mod for all Will saves ...). I'm now more interested in resolving the natural armor debate, even though it's off-topic. As far as I'm concerned, a magical enhancement bonus to natural armor does stack with a creature's base natural armor (which is not a magical enhancement bonus). Can someone show me a reference in the rules that states otherwise?
Jaxgaret 12-20-07, 06:03 PM	my player may not want the feat after all (when I told him about it, I forgot that it was conditional, so he was thinking that he'd be able to use his good CHA mod instead of his bad WIS mod for all Will saves ...). It would be an overall +7 to Will saves vs. mind-effecting effects, correct (-2 vs. +5)? And it would get even higher with stronger cloaks. It's probably worth it, even as one of very few feats a Paladin gets. The percentage of Will saves that aren't covered by FoP is IIRC not that large. I'm now more interested in resolving the natural armor debate, even though it's off-topic. As far as I'm concerned, a magical enhancement bonus to natural armor does stack with a creature's base natural armor (which is not a magical enhancement bonus). Can someone show me a reference in the rules that states otherwise? A natural armor bonus improves Armor Class resulting from a creature's naturally tough hide. Natural armor bonuses stack with all other bonuses to Armor Class (even with armor bonuses) except other natural armor bonuses. Some magical effects (such as the barkskin spell) grant an enhancement bonus to the creature's existing natural armor bonus, which has the effect of increasing the natural armor's overall bonus to Armor Class. A natural armor bonus doesn't apply against touch attacks. Racial NA stacks with magical NA. To make this really simple: treat creatures without NA (such as the PHB races) as considered as having racial NA +0. If enhancement NA bonuses did not stack with racial NA, then enhancement NA bonuses would not work for any character.
pukunui 12-20-07, 07:21 PM	It would be an overall +7 to Will saves vs. mind-effecting effects, correct (-2 vs. +5)? And it would get even higher with stronger cloaks. It's probably worth it, even as one of very few feats a Paladin gets. The percentage of Will saves that aren't covered by FoP is IIRC not that large.He's decided to take Ride-By Attack instead though. Racial NA stacks with magical NA. To make this really simple: treat creatures without NA (such as the PHB races) as considered as having racial NA +0. If enhancement NA bonuses did not stack with racial NA, then enhancement NA bonuses would not work for any character.That's what I thought. I was very confused when people started saying that it didn't stack. I knew it said something somewhere about PHB races being considered as having NA +0 but I couldn't remember where exactly ... The reason I thought it was relevant to resolve is because my player has a unicorn mount (+6 natural armor) and he wanted to give it an amulet of natural armor +1. I knew it stacked (that's what e-Tools was telling me too although it gets it wrong often enough as well ... it incorrectly applies natural armor bonuses to Touch AC, for instance).
zeratulcraft 12-20-07, 07:51 PM	Be a Paladin of Freedom and just be immune to all mind-affecting effects.
pukunui 12-20-07, 08:21 PM	Be a Paladin of Freedom and just be immune to all mind-affecting effects. :heehee I just love it when people make these sorts of suggestions: "just get x/y/z magic item" or "just be x/y/z race/class" ... as if no DM ever put any restrictions on anything and everyone has access to absolutely everything that's ever been written for 3.5. What's even funnier is when the suggestion is put to the DM rather than the player, which makes it pretty obvious that the person suggesting it didn't read the whole thread ... :rolleyes: Anyway, I'll suggest it to him (because a CG paladin would fit into the party theme better) but I don't think he'll be keen on losing Diplomacy as a class skill.
joshmvii 12-21-07, 04:38 AM	Some people in here are misunderstanding what "sources" mean I think. You're saying they both let you use charisma for something, so the source is the same and they don't stack. The sources in question are Divine Grace, a class feature, and Force of Personality, a feat. Clearly these are two different sources that both allow charisma for something. Beyond that, they are unnamed bonuses, which will clearly stack. The only way this wouldn't work is if they both were listed as insight bonuses, or sacred bonuses, or whatever. Saying these two things don't stack is like saying a Monk can't add his wisdom to his AC and his will save in the same turn, because both things are getting a bonus from his wisdom mod which is one source. This is a further extreme, but 'all saves' and 'saves versus mind affecting etc.' are two different things. Of course, the argument is over before it begins when you just realize the feat and class bonus are two different sources that both give an unnamed bonus.
mplindustries 12-21-07, 06:26 AM	Force of personality - I don't know if its OGL so I won't quote it, but it lets you use your Charisma bonus instead of your Wisdom bonus under certain circumstances. This is unequivocally your Charisma bonus that is being added to Will saves. The name of the bonus is "Charisma." It will absolutely not stack with any other bonus named "Charisma." Divine Grace (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/paladin.htm): "At 2nd level, a paladin gains a bonus equal to her Charisma bonus (if any) on all saving throws." This is "a bonus." It has no name. The only name it could even possibly have is "Divine Grace." The bonus is equal to your Charisma bonus, but is in fact not your Charisma bonus. It is a separate and (probably) unnamed bonus the actual value of which is derived from your Charisma bonus. In summation: 1) They are not both unnamed bonuses. Your Charisma bonus has a name. 2) Divine Grace's bonus, however, does not have a name despite the fact that its value is equal to another bonus that does have a name (And though it could be argued its name is "Divine Grace," that name is still not "Charisma"). 3) "Is" and "is equal to" are not the same thing. 4) Force of Personality and Divine Grace stack. Period. End of Discussion.
narack 12-21-07, 07:56 AM	Force of Personality = Normal Bonus Divine Grace = Divine Bonus Normal bonuses stacks with Divine bonuses
strenoth 12-21-07, 11:08 AM	Seeing as how there is no such thing as a 'charisma bonus' as a TYPE of bonus (if it was, it would be in the DMG under the listing of possible types of bonuses), and there is no type listed, it is in fact still an unnamed bonus equal to your charisma modifier, Minimum zero. Which is what is actually meant when the phrase "[ability score] bonus" is used, though i can not remember exactly where that is stated, but it was laid out pretty explicitly some where. "[ability score] bonus" refferences your positive modifier, but the [ability score] part of it references it's source, not it's Type. All ability scores provide unnamed bonuses or penalties to what ever they modify. But I suppose that's nitpicking a bit in this argument, as we agree in the end that the feat & divine Grace stack.