Perfect Two-Weapon Fighting [Archive] - Wizards Community

Perfect Two-Weapon Fighting [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
drakegiovanni
04-18-07, 12:46 PM I have a question about this feat.

I know it can be found in the Epic Level Handbook, but what exactly does it do?
I mean, I know it gives me an off-hand attack for every attack I have, but does it obliterate the extra bonuses from Improved Two-Weapon Fighting and Greater Two-Weapon Fighting?
NoldorForce
04-18-07, 05:15 PM It doesn't mention anything about the TWF penalties, and thus one defaults to the normal rules (that is, the ones you'd been using earlier). The effect is that you get extra attacks but nothing else.

Still, if you flurry or use Crimson Road (class ability of Maho-bujin from OA), that's a few extra attacks, rather than just one.
drakegiovanni
04-19-07, 09:30 AM Well thanks, I would assume that it happened that way as well, but I wanted to ask on the forums just to make sure.
runestar
04-19-07, 09:48 AM It's purpose is simply to give you a 4th off-hand attack, thus rounding out the TWFing feat chain.:)
drakegiovanni
04-19-07, 12:52 PM Right, but my main question to it retains to the minuses you recieve for Imp TWF and Greater TWF. Do they still exist? Or are they wiped from the slate?
Frugal
04-19-07, 01:06 PM Right, but my main question to it retains to the minuses you recieve for Imp TWF and Greater TWF. Do they still exist? Or are they wiped from the slate?

Those aren't "penalties" they're the standard attack bonuses that iterative attacks are made at. No, PTWF does not remove them.
drakegiovanni
04-19-07, 05:35 PM So, I still retain the cumulative -7 on my second off-hand attack, and the cumulative -12 on my third off-hand attack? But what about my fourth attack? Or my fifth and so on? Do they retain just the -2? And if so, I will have to say that that is bogus.
Frugal
04-19-07, 05:39 PM So, I still retain the cumulative -7 on my second off-hand attack, and the cumulative -12 on my third off-hand attack? But what about my fourth attack? Or my fifth and so on? Do they retain just the -2? And if so, I will have to say that that is bogus.

You get as many attacks, and at the same bonus, as you do with your primary hand.

So if you have a +20/+15/+10/+5 attack with your primary hand you get +18/+18/+13/+13/+8/+8/+3/+3 full attack.
drakegiovanni
04-19-07, 06:02 PM So it does indeed abolish the extra penalty for Improved Two-Weapon Fighting, and Greater Two-Weapon Fighting. I am just trying to get this straight.
Frugal
04-19-07, 07:23 PM So it does indeed abolish the extra penalty for Improved Two-Weapon Fighting, and Greater Two-Weapon Fighting. I am just trying to get this straight.

There is no extra penalty, it's just an iterative attack.

Let's look at the +20/+15/+10/+5 routine

fighting with TWF and a light weapon off-hand +18/+18/+13/+8/+3 (note the extra attack at highest attack bonus)

fighting with ITWF and a light weapon off-hand +18/+18/+13/+13/+8/+3 (note that he now also has 1 iterative attack)

fighting with GTWF and a light weapon off-hand +18/+18/+13/+13/+8/+8/+3 (note he now has a 2nd iterative attack off-hand, for a total of 3)

fighting with PTWF and a light weapon off-hand +18/+18/+13/+13/+8/+8/+3/+3 (note now the 4th attack off-hand)
drakegiovanni
04-19-07, 08:59 PM Well, that is incorrect. But my assumption that it was cumulative was wrong as well.

Improved Two Weapon Fighting:
Benefit: In additon to the standard single attack you get with an off-hand weapon, you get a second attack with it, albeit at a -5 penalty.

Greater Two-Weapon Fighting
Benefit: You get a third attack with your off-hand weapon, albeit at a -10 penalty.

I have 3.5 PHB, so if they have changed since then, I am unaware.
temparus2000
04-19-07, 10:11 PM the feat says you still take all normal penalties for fighting with 2 weapons. You just get a 4th attack with your off-hand weapon (providing your full-attack allows 4), that's all
drakegiovanni
04-19-07, 11:09 PM Right, so yes or no on the extra penalties from Imp TWF and Greater TWF being gone?
DarkRhystar
04-19-07, 11:11 PM No penalties go away.

Perfect Two-Weapon Fighting just gives you a 4th attack (if your BAB > 15).
drakegiovanni
04-19-07, 11:30 PM So there is no penalty other than the normal -2 on that fourth and fifth and so one attacks?
Tsuul
04-20-07, 02:41 AM Here is the SRD version. I hope there is no diff from ELH.

PERFECT TWO-WEAPON FIGHTING [EPIC]
Prerequisites: Dex 25, Greater Two-Weapon Fighting, Improved Two-Weapon Fighting, Two-Weapon Fighting.
Benefit: The character can make as many attacks with his or her off-hand weapon as with his or her primary weapon, using the same base attack bonus. The character still takes the normal penalties for fighting with two weapons.
Normal: Without this feat, a character can only get a single attack with an off-hand weapon (or two attacks with an off-hand weapon if he or she has Improved Two-Weapon Fighting, or three attacks with an off-hand weapon if he or she has Greater Two-Weapon Fighting).
drakegiovanni
04-20-07, 09:08 AM Okay, I know this. And I have iterated that I know this. Still takes the normal penalties. That would be a -2. I get that.
But no one has answered my question. Does it, or does it not eliminate the extra penalties from my second and third off-hand attack.
runestar
04-20-07, 10:30 AM No. Those penalties were meant to simulate your off-hand attack progression mimicking that of your main hand, so it makes little sense to do away with them.:)
Frugal
04-20-07, 11:44 AM As I've already said several times, the "penalty" from TWF is the way iterative attacks work on your primary hand. Notice how when you go to +6 BAB you get a 2nd attack with your primary hand? It's not at +6 though, it's at +1, or 5 less than the 1st attack. Now let's look at ITWF, you get a 2nd attack at -5, and the BAB prerequisite is +6, notice any similarity here?

With PTWF you just figure out your attack routine for the primary hand, then take the exact same progression for your off-hand, then apply the -2 penalty for all attacks (for TWF), done.
Tsuul
04-20-07, 05:15 PM drakegiovanni, [I believe] it completely replaces ITWF/and GWTF feats.
No longer are they used.

Given the version I posted above from the SRD, and given the misconstrued readings of Spring attack granting an additional move action, can PTWF be read to grant iterative attacks for your off-hand weapon in addition to those granted by ITWF/GTWF?
I think that isn't the intent, but can a credible rules lawyer argument be made?
temparus2000
04-20-07, 06:57 PM drakegiovanni, [I believe] it completely replaces ITWF/and GWTF feats.
No longer are they used.

Given the version I posted above from the SRD, and given the misconstrued readings of Spring attack granting an additional move action, can PTWF be read to grant iterative attacks for your off-hand weapon in addition to those granted by ITWF/GTWF?
I think that isn't the intent, but can a credible rules lawyer argument be made?

Yes, you could say it replaces them, I believe. It effectively simplifies two-weapon fighting. As someone said earlier, a BAB 20/15/10/5 would fight with 2 weapons as 18/18/13/13/8/8/3/3 as their base modifier with this feat, providing that the off-hand weapon is light.
drakegiovanni
04-20-07, 10:17 PM I get what they said, but they worded it in such a way that they did not touch on the fact of the penalties of those two feats previously mentioned. So, everyone is in agreeance that it is just the normal -2 penalty for fighting with two-weapons, and you get as many attacks with your off-hand as you do with your main?
Frugal
04-20-07, 10:26 PM I get what they said, but they worded it in such a way that they did not touch on the fact of the penalties of those two feats previously mentioned. So, everyone is in agreeance that it is just the normal -2 penalty for fighting with two-weapons, and you get as many attacks with your off-hand as you do with your main?

Well you keep throwing around talking about the penalties for TWF as well. Just to be clear, yes you take the -2 for TWF on all attacks, and your attacks with the off-hand have the same bonus as the attacks with your main hand.

Again:

Primary hand: +18/+13/+8/+3
Off-hand: +18/+13/+8/+3

If you gain any other attacks with your main hand (through some way) you'll get another attack with your off-hand at the same bonus.
drakegiovanni
04-20-07, 11:42 PM That is an incorrect statement. You have a -5 penalty to your second offhand attack. cumulative of -7, you get this through Improved Two-Weapon Fighting.
You also get a third off-hand attack through Greater Two-Weapon Fighting at a -10 penalty, cumulative of -12. No

Primary Hand: +18/+13/+8
Off-hand: +18/+8/-2

This is with the feats stated above and without perfect Two Weapon Fighting. My original and seems to be still open question is, does Perfect Two-Weapon Fighting eliminate the extra penalties, the -5 for the second off-hand attack and the -10 for the third off-hand attack, and if not, is there or should there be one for further attacks.
Tsuul
04-21-07, 02:51 AM It is supposed to completely overwrite ITWF and GTWF. You no longer get a third and fourth attack with your off-hand weapon from those two feats. You no longer take the penalties listed in those two feats either.

Those penalties were to simulate the iterative BAB routine of the primary hand. PTWF has a better way of simulating it; by stating you get one off-hand attack for each primary-hand.

Delete ITWF/GTWF rule text. Add PTWF rule text. Enjoy.
That's my understanding of the intent of PTWF. It may keep the extra attacks granted from ITWF and GTWF, but I really, really, really doubt it.
Unholy_King
04-21-07, 03:12 AM That is an incorrect statement. You have a -5 penalty to your second offhand attack. cumulative of -7, you get this through Improved Two-Weapon Fighting.
You also get a third off-hand attack through Greater Two-Weapon Fighting at a -10 penalty, cumulative of -12. No

Primary Hand: +18/+13/+8
Off-hand: +18/+8/-2

No. Just No.

ITWF gives a -5 to your second off-hand attack.

GTWF gives a -10 to your third off-hand attack.

They in no way effect each other.

+18/+18/+13/+13/+8/+8

So technically, PTWF will give you a -15 on your fourth attack to mimic the BAB from your primary hand.
Frugal
04-21-07, 08:35 AM That is an incorrect statement. You have a -5 penalty to your second offhand attack. cumulative of -7, you get this through Improved Two-Weapon Fighting.
You also get a third off-hand attack through Greater Two-Weapon Fighting at a -10 penalty, cumulative of -12. No

Primary Hand: +18/+13/+8
Off-hand: +18/+8/-2

This is with the feats stated above and without perfect Two Weapon Fighting. My original and seems to be still open question is, does Perfect Two-Weapon Fighting eliminate the extra penalties, the -5 for the second off-hand attack and the -10 for the third off-hand attack, and if not, is there or should there be one for further attacks.

That's what I thought you were doing all along, and why I kept saying the TWF "penalties" are the standard iterative attack "penalties". You're applying the same penalty twice. When ITWF says you get a 2nd attack, albeit at a -5 penalty, that -5 penalty is based off your 1st attack's bonus. The same with GTWF, it's based off your 1st attack's bonus, it is also not cumulative with the penalty for ITWF.

Some examples, I'm assuming a light weapon off-hand in all examples.

BAB is +6, you have ITWF, you attack at +4/-1 with your primary hand and +4/-1 with your off-hand.

BAB is +11, you have GTWF, you attack at +9/+4/-1 with your primary hand and +9/+4/-1 with your off-hand.
drakegiovanni
04-21-07, 08:36 AM So why would they even mention the penalty then?
I mean, to assume that you could get the second attack at the full base attack of your highest BAB would be ignorance and teetering on incompatence of life.
And if indeed they put it in there to mean what you say, why not elaborate that it does that?
drakegiovanni
04-21-07, 08:39 AM Okay, so just for knowledges sake, where does it say that it does that? This way if it comes up at the table I can show it. Not that I don't believe you, but that just makes two-weapon fighitng a lot more powerful.
Frugal
04-21-07, 08:54 AM So why would they even mention the penalty then?
I mean, to assume that you could get the second attack at the full base attack of your highest BAB would be ignorance and teetering on incompatence of life.
And if indeed they put it in there to mean what you say, why not elaborate that it does that?

They mention the penalty because normally you don't get iterative attacks with your off-hand, only your primary hand.

For example, BAB of +6 fighting with a light weapon off-hand and only has TWF. Fights with primary hand +4/-1 and off-hand +4, no 2nd attack with the off-hand weapon, even though his BAB is high enough to grant iterative attacks. ITWF just gives you that 1st iterative attack, GTWF gives you your 2nd iterative attack, PTWF gives you as many attacks with your off-hand as your primary hand. The iterative attacks are not made at your highest BAB, but the final bonus is determined from your highest BAB.

Okay, so just for knowledges sake, where does it say that it does that? This way if it comes up at the table I can show it. Not that I don't believe you, but that just makes two-weapon fighitng a lot more powerful.

Yes it does, because you were excessively nerfing it. Even when worked out correctly TWF is still considered pretty weak except for a very select number of cases compared to fighting with a 2-handed weapon. The mistake you're making is saying, "well this is my 2nd attack, I have a BAB of +6/+1 so the BAB for 2nd attacks is +1, now let me apply the penalty." The mistake is that there is not BAB for 2nd attacks, your BAB is just the highest number, it grants you iterative attacks if it's high enough, but your BAB (for all attacks) is always the highest number, it's just that subsequent attacks are made at a penalty. So there is no such thing as "highest BAB" because you only have 1 BAB.

A good example of this is sometimes you'll see people talking about power attack and asking if their BAB is +6/+1 how much of a hit penalty they can apply to power attack because it's limited to no more than their BAB but applies to all their attacks and their "BAB for their 2nd attack" is only +1, does that mean they can only use power attack for -1? Of course not, their BAB is +6, they can apply a full -6 to their attack rolls and gain +6 damage (+12 if wielding a weapon in 2 hands) and attack at +0/-5.
drakegiovanni
04-21-07, 09:16 AM Okay, so I do understand the formula now, but why would they not state such in PTWF? They just say you get as many attacks with your off-hand aas you do with your main hand, using the same BAB. So, assuming that I get four attacks with my main hand, I would get that same with my off-hand at the same bonus. Brings back the question of why they mention the -5 and -10 penalty at all.

Don't get me wrong, I understand what you are saying and see how it works for the most part, but it still confuses me why they mention in one case and not in the other. I guess it could also be the difference in versions?

Still, it's kind of an informative learning experince for me now.
Frugal
04-21-07, 09:36 AM Okay, so I do understand the formula now, but why would they not state such in PTWF? They just say you get as many attacks with your off-hand aas you do with your main hand, using the same BAB. So, assuming that I get four attacks with my main hand, I would get that same with my off-hand at the same bonus. Brings back the question of why they mention the -5 and -10 penalty at all.

Well, partly because it's a really poorly worded feat, but also because it could give you any number of extra attacks and the bonuses will be different.

For instance, let's take our +20/+15/+10/+5 example again. That gives us our +18/+13/+8/+3 for primary hand and +18/+13/+8/+3 for off-hand. Now suppose he has some ability that gives him another attack with his primary hand at his highest attack bonus (could be from a class feature for instance. Now thanks to PTWF that gives him +18/+18/+13/+8/+3 with the primary hand and +18/+18/+13/+8/+3 with the off-hand. So it's not mentioned in PTWF because it might not be that 4th attack you're getting, it could just as easily be an extra attack at full bonus, or any number of other possibilities.
Tsuul
04-21-07, 12:45 PM PTWF does not mention the penalties in ITWF and GTWF. It only mentions penalties for TWF. Those are found on page 160 of the players handbook.

PTWF is supposed to completely void/remove/erase ITWF and GTWF. Don't look at them anymore except as prereqs.
drakegiovanni
04-22-07, 12:02 AM Okay, cool. Put that way it is clearer. Thanks to everyone, and also, sorry if at any point people were annoyed.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
drakegiovanni 04-18-07, 12:46 PM	I have a question about this feat. I know it can be found in the Epic Level Handbook, but what exactly does it do? I mean, I know it gives me an off-hand attack for every attack I have, but does it obliterate the extra bonuses from Improved Two-Weapon Fighting and Greater Two-Weapon Fighting?
NoldorForce 04-18-07, 05:15 PM	It doesn't mention anything about the TWF penalties, and thus one defaults to the normal rules (that is, the ones you'd been using earlier). The effect is that you get extra attacks but nothing else. Still, if you flurry or use Crimson Road (class ability of Maho-bujin from OA), that's a few extra attacks, rather than just one.
drakegiovanni 04-19-07, 09:30 AM	Well thanks, I would assume that it happened that way as well, but I wanted to ask on the forums just to make sure.
runestar 04-19-07, 09:48 AM	It's purpose is simply to give you a 4th off-hand attack, thus rounding out the TWFing feat chain.:)
drakegiovanni 04-19-07, 12:52 PM	Right, but my main question to it retains to the minuses you recieve for Imp TWF and Greater TWF. Do they still exist? Or are they wiped from the slate?
Frugal 04-19-07, 01:06 PM	Right, but my main question to it retains to the minuses you recieve for Imp TWF and Greater TWF. Do they still exist? Or are they wiped from the slate? Those aren't "penalties" they're the standard attack bonuses that iterative attacks are made at. No, PTWF does not remove them.
drakegiovanni 04-19-07, 05:35 PM	So, I still retain the cumulative -7 on my second off-hand attack, and the cumulative -12 on my third off-hand attack? But what about my fourth attack? Or my fifth and so on? Do they retain just the -2? And if so, I will have to say that that is bogus.
Frugal 04-19-07, 05:39 PM	So, I still retain the cumulative -7 on my second off-hand attack, and the cumulative -12 on my third off-hand attack? But what about my fourth attack? Or my fifth and so on? Do they retain just the -2? And if so, I will have to say that that is bogus. You get as many attacks, and at the same bonus, as you do with your primary hand. So if you have a +20/+15/+10/+5 attack with your primary hand you get +18/+18/+13/+13/+8/+8/+3/+3 full attack.
drakegiovanni 04-19-07, 06:02 PM	So it does indeed abolish the extra penalty for Improved Two-Weapon Fighting, and Greater Two-Weapon Fighting. I am just trying to get this straight.
Frugal 04-19-07, 07:23 PM	So it does indeed abolish the extra penalty for Improved Two-Weapon Fighting, and Greater Two-Weapon Fighting. I am just trying to get this straight. There is no extra penalty, it's just an iterative attack. Let's look at the +20/+15/+10/+5 routine fighting with TWF and a light weapon off-hand +18/+18/+13/+8/+3 (note the extra attack at highest attack bonus) fighting with ITWF and a light weapon off-hand +18/+18/+13/+13/+8/+3 (note that he now also has 1 iterative attack) fighting with GTWF and a light weapon off-hand +18/+18/+13/+13/+8/+8/+3 (note he now has a 2nd iterative attack off-hand, for a total of 3) fighting with PTWF and a light weapon off-hand +18/+18/+13/+13/+8/+8/+3/+3 (note now the 4th attack off-hand)
drakegiovanni 04-19-07, 08:59 PM	Well, that is incorrect. But my assumption that it was cumulative was wrong as well. Improved Two Weapon Fighting: Benefit: In additon to the standard single attack you get with an off-hand weapon, you get a second attack with it, albeit at a -5 penalty. Greater Two-Weapon Fighting Benefit: You get a third attack with your off-hand weapon, albeit at a -10 penalty. I have 3.5 PHB, so if they have changed since then, I am unaware.
temparus2000 04-19-07, 10:11 PM	the feat says you still take all normal penalties for fighting with 2 weapons. You just get a 4th attack with your off-hand weapon (providing your full-attack allows 4), that's all
drakegiovanni 04-19-07, 11:09 PM	Right, so yes or no on the extra penalties from Imp TWF and Greater TWF being gone?
DarkRhystar 04-19-07, 11:11 PM	No penalties go away. Perfect Two-Weapon Fighting just gives you a 4th attack (if your BAB > 15).
drakegiovanni 04-19-07, 11:30 PM	So there is no penalty other than the normal -2 on that fourth and fifth and so one attacks?
Tsuul 04-20-07, 02:41 AM	Here is the SRD version. I hope there is no diff from ELH. PERFECT TWO-WEAPON FIGHTING [EPIC] Prerequisites: Dex 25, Greater Two-Weapon Fighting, Improved Two-Weapon Fighting, Two-Weapon Fighting. Benefit: The character can make as many attacks with his or her off-hand weapon as with his or her primary weapon, using the same base attack bonus. The character still takes the normal penalties for fighting with two weapons. Normal: Without this feat, a character can only get a single attack with an off-hand weapon (or two attacks with an off-hand weapon if he or she has Improved Two-Weapon Fighting, or three attacks with an off-hand weapon if he or she has Greater Two-Weapon Fighting).
drakegiovanni 04-20-07, 09:08 AM	Okay, I know this. And I have iterated that I know this. Still takes the normal penalties. That would be a -2. I get that. But no one has answered my question. Does it, or does it not eliminate the extra penalties from my second and third off-hand attack.
runestar 04-20-07, 10:30 AM	No. Those penalties were meant to simulate your off-hand attack progression mimicking that of your main hand, so it makes little sense to do away with them.:)
Frugal 04-20-07, 11:44 AM	As I've already said several times, the "penalty" from TWF is the way iterative attacks work on your primary hand. Notice how when you go to +6 BAB you get a 2nd attack with your primary hand? It's not at +6 though, it's at +1, or 5 less than the 1st attack. Now let's look at ITWF, you get a 2nd attack at -5, and the BAB prerequisite is +6, notice any similarity here? With PTWF you just figure out your attack routine for the primary hand, then take the exact same progression for your off-hand, then apply the -2 penalty for all attacks (for TWF), done.
Tsuul 04-20-07, 05:15 PM	drakegiovanni, [I believe] it completely replaces ITWF/and GWTF feats. No longer are they used. Given the version I posted above from the SRD, and given the misconstrued readings of Spring attack granting an additional move action, can PTWF be read to grant iterative attacks for your off-hand weapon in addition to those granted by ITWF/GTWF? I think that isn't the intent, but can a credible rules lawyer argument be made?
temparus2000 04-20-07, 06:57 PM	drakegiovanni, [I believe] it completely replaces ITWF/and GWTF feats. No longer are they used. Given the version I posted above from the SRD, and given the misconstrued readings of Spring attack granting an additional move action, can PTWF be read to grant iterative attacks for your off-hand weapon in addition to those granted by ITWF/GTWF? I think that isn't the intent, but can a credible rules lawyer argument be made? Yes, you could say it replaces them, I believe. It effectively simplifies two-weapon fighting. As someone said earlier, a BAB 20/15/10/5 would fight with 2 weapons as 18/18/13/13/8/8/3/3 as their base modifier with this feat, providing that the off-hand weapon is light.
drakegiovanni 04-20-07, 10:17 PM	I get what they said, but they worded it in such a way that they did not touch on the fact of the penalties of those two feats previously mentioned. So, everyone is in agreeance that it is just the normal -2 penalty for fighting with two-weapons, and you get as many attacks with your off-hand as you do with your main?
Frugal 04-20-07, 10:26 PM	I get what they said, but they worded it in such a way that they did not touch on the fact of the penalties of those two feats previously mentioned. So, everyone is in agreeance that it is just the normal -2 penalty for fighting with two-weapons, and you get as many attacks with your off-hand as you do with your main? Well you keep throwing around talking about the penalties for TWF as well. Just to be clear, yes you take the -2 for TWF on all attacks, and your attacks with the off-hand have the same bonus as the attacks with your main hand. Again: Primary hand: +18/+13/+8/+3 Off-hand: +18/+13/+8/+3 If you gain any other attacks with your main hand (through some way) you'll get another attack with your off-hand at the same bonus.
drakegiovanni 04-20-07, 11:42 PM	That is an incorrect statement. You have a -5 penalty to your second offhand attack. cumulative of -7, you get this through Improved Two-Weapon Fighting. You also get a third off-hand attack through Greater Two-Weapon Fighting at a -10 penalty, cumulative of -12. No Primary Hand: +18/+13/+8 Off-hand: +18/+8/-2 This is with the feats stated above and without perfect Two Weapon Fighting. My original and seems to be still open question is, does Perfect Two-Weapon Fighting eliminate the extra penalties, the -5 for the second off-hand attack and the -10 for the third off-hand attack, and if not, is there or should there be one for further attacks.
Tsuul 04-21-07, 02:51 AM	It is supposed to completely overwrite ITWF and GTWF. You no longer get a third and fourth attack with your off-hand weapon from those two feats. You no longer take the penalties listed in those two feats either. Those penalties were to simulate the iterative BAB routine of the primary hand. PTWF has a better way of simulating it; by stating you get one off-hand attack for each primary-hand. Delete ITWF/GTWF rule text. Add PTWF rule text. Enjoy. That's my understanding of the intent of PTWF. It may keep the extra attacks granted from ITWF and GTWF, but I really, really, really doubt it.
Unholy_King 04-21-07, 03:12 AM	That is an incorrect statement. You have a -5 penalty to your second offhand attack. cumulative of -7, you get this through Improved Two-Weapon Fighting. You also get a third off-hand attack through Greater Two-Weapon Fighting at a -10 penalty, cumulative of -12. No Primary Hand: +18/+13/+8 Off-hand: +18/+8/-2 No. Just No. ITWF gives a -5 to your second off-hand attack. GTWF gives a -10 to your third off-hand attack. They in no way effect each other. +18/+18/+13/+13/+8/+8 So technically, PTWF will give you a -15 on your fourth attack to mimic the BAB from your primary hand.
Frugal 04-21-07, 08:35 AM	That is an incorrect statement. You have a -5 penalty to your second offhand attack. cumulative of -7, you get this through Improved Two-Weapon Fighting. You also get a third off-hand attack through Greater Two-Weapon Fighting at a -10 penalty, cumulative of -12. No Primary Hand: +18/+13/+8 Off-hand: +18/+8/-2 This is with the feats stated above and without perfect Two Weapon Fighting. My original and seems to be still open question is, does Perfect Two-Weapon Fighting eliminate the extra penalties, the -5 for the second off-hand attack and the -10 for the third off-hand attack, and if not, is there or should there be one for further attacks. That's what I thought you were doing all along, and why I kept saying the TWF "penalties" are the standard iterative attack "penalties". You're applying the same penalty twice. When ITWF says you get a 2nd attack, albeit at a -5 penalty, that -5 penalty is based off your 1st attack's bonus. The same with GTWF, it's based off your 1st attack's bonus, it is also not cumulative with the penalty for ITWF. Some examples, I'm assuming a light weapon off-hand in all examples. BAB is +6, you have ITWF, you attack at +4/-1 with your primary hand and +4/-1 with your off-hand. BAB is +11, you have GTWF, you attack at +9/+4/-1 with your primary hand and +9/+4/-1 with your off-hand.
drakegiovanni 04-21-07, 08:36 AM	So why would they even mention the penalty then? I mean, to assume that you could get the second attack at the full base attack of your highest BAB would be ignorance and teetering on incompatence of life. And if indeed they put it in there to mean what you say, why not elaborate that it does that?
drakegiovanni 04-21-07, 08:39 AM	Okay, so just for knowledges sake, where does it say that it does that? This way if it comes up at the table I can show it. Not that I don't believe you, but that just makes two-weapon fighitng a lot more powerful.
Frugal 04-21-07, 08:54 AM	So why would they even mention the penalty then? I mean, to assume that you could get the second attack at the full base attack of your highest BAB would be ignorance and teetering on incompatence of life. And if indeed they put it in there to mean what you say, why not elaborate that it does that? They mention the penalty because normally you don't get iterative attacks with your off-hand, only your primary hand. For example, BAB of +6 fighting with a light weapon off-hand and only has TWF. Fights with primary hand +4/-1 and off-hand +4, no 2nd attack with the off-hand weapon, even though his BAB is high enough to grant iterative attacks. ITWF just gives you that 1st iterative attack, GTWF gives you your 2nd iterative attack, PTWF gives you as many attacks with your off-hand as your primary hand. The iterative attacks are not made at your highest BAB, but the final bonus is determined from your highest BAB. Okay, so just for knowledges sake, where does it say that it does that? This way if it comes up at the table I can show it. Not that I don't believe you, but that just makes two-weapon fighitng a lot more powerful. Yes it does, because you were excessively nerfing it. Even when worked out correctly TWF is still considered pretty weak except for a very select number of cases compared to fighting with a 2-handed weapon. The mistake you're making is saying, "well this is my 2nd attack, I have a BAB of +6/+1 so the BAB for 2nd attacks is +1, now let me apply the penalty." The mistake is that there is not BAB for 2nd attacks, your BAB is just the highest number, it grants you iterative attacks if it's high enough, but your BAB (for all attacks) is always the highest number, it's just that subsequent attacks are made at a penalty. So there is no such thing as "highest BAB" because you only have 1 BAB. A good example of this is sometimes you'll see people talking about power attack and asking if their BAB is +6/+1 how much of a hit penalty they can apply to power attack because it's limited to no more than their BAB but applies to all their attacks and their "BAB for their 2nd attack" is only +1, does that mean they can only use power attack for -1? Of course not, their BAB is +6, they can apply a full -6 to their attack rolls and gain +6 damage (+12 if wielding a weapon in 2 hands) and attack at +0/-5.
drakegiovanni 04-21-07, 09:16 AM	Okay, so I do understand the formula now, but why would they not state such in PTWF? They just say you get as many attacks with your off-hand aas you do with your main hand, using the same BAB. So, assuming that I get four attacks with my main hand, I would get that same with my off-hand at the same bonus. Brings back the question of why they mention the -5 and -10 penalty at all. Don't get me wrong, I understand what you are saying and see how it works for the most part, but it still confuses me why they mention in one case and not in the other. I guess it could also be the difference in versions? Still, it's kind of an informative learning experince for me now.
Frugal 04-21-07, 09:36 AM	Okay, so I do understand the formula now, but why would they not state such in PTWF? They just say you get as many attacks with your off-hand aas you do with your main hand, using the same BAB. So, assuming that I get four attacks with my main hand, I would get that same with my off-hand at the same bonus. Brings back the question of why they mention the -5 and -10 penalty at all. Well, partly because it's a really poorly worded feat, but also because it could give you any number of extra attacks and the bonuses will be different. For instance, let's take our +20/+15/+10/+5 example again. That gives us our +18/+13/+8/+3 for primary hand and +18/+13/+8/+3 for off-hand. Now suppose he has some ability that gives him another attack with his primary hand at his highest attack bonus (could be from a class feature for instance. Now thanks to PTWF that gives him +18/+18/+13/+8/+3 with the primary hand and +18/+18/+13/+8/+3 with the off-hand. So it's not mentioned in PTWF because it might not be that 4th attack you're getting, it could just as easily be an extra attack at full bonus, or any number of other possibilities.
Tsuul 04-21-07, 12:45 PM	PTWF does not mention the penalties in ITWF and GTWF. It only mentions penalties for TWF. Those are found on page 160 of the players handbook. PTWF is supposed to completely void/remove/erase ITWF and GTWF. Don't look at them anymore except as prereqs.
drakegiovanni 04-22-07, 12:02 AM	Okay, cool. Put that way it is clearer. Thanks to everyone, and also, sorry if at any point people were annoyed.