Perform (Weapon Drill) would it be resonable? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Perform (Weapon Drill) would it be resonable? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Woolff
06-16-07, 12:40 PM First my DM goes my RAW, so here is my question, I know perform is cross-class for fighters, is there an option anywhere that can make this class?

And would it be reasonable since it allows you to do fancy moves, to feint in combat?

Thanks
AAB
06-16-07, 01:25 PM well, the ability to add your BAB (or half, i don't remember) really helps to offset the number of ranks for perform.

and i think feinting should stay a part of bluff.
Woolff
06-16-07, 01:29 PM your are right it is one half, and that would help. But would not feinting be part of combat training? I just thought I saw it could be used for feinting. If not no problem.
Kalarus
06-16-07, 01:39 PM You can already feint in combat, as per PHB rules. I assume the question is wether or not you can substitute the Bluff roll for a perform (weapon drill) roll. I'd say no, there's a big difference between giving a fancy performance and using real-time combat skills. A weapon drill is a fixed series of moves, with the focus on looking impressive rather than being efficient. A feint in combat is a situation-dependent action which requires one to be adaptable and react appropriately, rather than doing something "set".

I suppose that, looking at balance, it wouldn't matter much if you used Perform (weapon drill) as a cross class skill to initate the feint rather than Bluff as a cross class skill, except for the bonuses. If you rule that you can use Perform (weapon drill) to feint, I'd recomment not granting the bonuses when feinting, and it shouldn't be unbalanced.

To make feint more efficient there's the Improved Feint feat. A skill should not easily substitute a feat.

If you stick to RAW and do not allow Perform (weapon drill) to be usable for feinting instead of Bluff, then I don't really see the problem in allowing it to be a class skills for Fighters. They're supposed to be weaponmasters, demonstrations are part of displaying mastery.
tarkin
06-16-07, 02:48 PM I could see it offering a +2 synergy bonus to doing a feint/bluff. No more than that.
Antioch
06-16-07, 03:01 PM Having 5 or more ranks to snag a +2 bonus seems the best way to do it, though you are better off taking cross-class ranks in Bluff as opposed to ranks in another cross-class skill to get a +2 bonus.

If you are REALLY dead set on this, you might allow the Perform skill to do the same thing, but at a -5 penalty.
Derren S.
06-16-07, 03:09 PM Imo it should not give any bonus to feint checks. Weapon drills have no real combat application and they would also not confuse the enemy but instead make you more vulnerable.

But as they look inpressive I would let them give you a +2 circumstance bonus on intimidate against intelligent foes when you perform them.
blackjackg
06-16-07, 03:10 PM In response to the other part of your question (Perform a class skill for fighters) there are three ways I can think of, and they all kind of suck. 1) Three levels of Human Paragon (Unearthed Arcana), 2) Able Learner (Races of Destiny) and a level in a class that has Perform, or 3) One level of Bard, one level of Cleric and the Divine Inspiration feat from Dragon #330.

Alternatively, I'm currently trying to polish up a houserule whereby when you take the first level in any class, you can choose to make three class skills cross-class and one cross-class skill class. Three out, one in. Run it by your DM.
Woolff
06-16-07, 04:08 PM Thanks guys that is exactly what I was looking for!!
Salla
06-16-07, 06:33 PM I just made a houserule to give Perform (Weapon Drill) to fighters (and Warblades, and ...) as a class skill. It seems to make sense for them.
AAB
06-16-07, 10:00 PM IMO it wouldn't be a bad idea to make it a class skill for everyone with 3/4 or full BAB progression. cuz if we just gave it to the full BAB classes the monk, swordsage, etc would be cut out. and that's no fun.
Mentar
06-18-07, 03:22 AM I fully agree with Derren S. No bonus to bluff for feint, but when used in conjunction with an intimidate check (hopefully before combat) it would give a synergy bonus.

Usually when I run games I take three skill sets and make them class skills for everyone. Craft, profession, and perform. If a 10th level warrior can't make a profession (soldier) check would you really want to take him on an adventure?
"Well, he can't keep a job with the town guard, but I suppose we can take him out on the Slaad hunt." Just doesn't sound right to me.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Woolff 06-16-07, 12:40 PM	First my DM goes my RAW, so here is my question, I know perform is cross-class for fighters, is there an option anywhere that can make this class? And would it be reasonable since it allows you to do fancy moves, to feint in combat? Thanks
AAB 06-16-07, 01:25 PM	well, the ability to add your BAB (or half, i don't remember) really helps to offset the number of ranks for perform. and i think feinting should stay a part of bluff.
Woolff 06-16-07, 01:29 PM	your are right it is one half, and that would help. But would not feinting be part of combat training? I just thought I saw it could be used for feinting. If not no problem.
Kalarus 06-16-07, 01:39 PM	You can already feint in combat, as per PHB rules. I assume the question is wether or not you can substitute the Bluff roll for a perform (weapon drill) roll. I'd say no, there's a big difference between giving a fancy performance and using real-time combat skills. A weapon drill is a fixed series of moves, with the focus on looking impressive rather than being efficient. A feint in combat is a situation-dependent action which requires one to be adaptable and react appropriately, rather than doing something "set". I suppose that, looking at balance, it wouldn't matter much if you used Perform (weapon drill) as a cross class skill to initate the feint rather than Bluff as a cross class skill, except for the bonuses. If you rule that you can use Perform (weapon drill) to feint, I'd recomment not granting the bonuses when feinting, and it shouldn't be unbalanced. To make feint more efficient there's the Improved Feint feat. A skill should not easily substitute a feat. If you stick to RAW and do not allow Perform (weapon drill) to be usable for feinting instead of Bluff, then I don't really see the problem in allowing it to be a class skills for Fighters. They're supposed to be weaponmasters, demonstrations are part of displaying mastery.
tarkin 06-16-07, 02:48 PM	I could see it offering a +2 synergy bonus to doing a feint/bluff. No more than that.
Antioch 06-16-07, 03:01 PM	Having 5 or more ranks to snag a +2 bonus seems the best way to do it, though you are better off taking cross-class ranks in Bluff as opposed to ranks in another cross-class skill to get a +2 bonus. If you are REALLY dead set on this, you might allow the Perform skill to do the same thing, but at a -5 penalty.
Derren S. 06-16-07, 03:09 PM	Imo it should not give any bonus to feint checks. Weapon drills have no real combat application and they would also not confuse the enemy but instead make you more vulnerable. But as they look inpressive I would let them give you a +2 circumstance bonus on intimidate against intelligent foes when you perform them.
blackjackg 06-16-07, 03:10 PM	In response to the other part of your question (Perform a class skill for fighters) there are three ways I can think of, and they all kind of suck. 1) Three levels of Human Paragon (Unearthed Arcana), 2) Able Learner (Races of Destiny) and a level in a class that has Perform, or 3) One level of Bard, one level of Cleric and the Divine Inspiration feat from Dragon #330. Alternatively, I'm currently trying to polish up a houserule whereby when you take the first level in any class, you can choose to make three class skills cross-class and one cross-class skill class. Three out, one in. Run it by your DM.
Woolff 06-16-07, 04:08 PM	Thanks guys that is exactly what I was looking for!!
Salla 06-16-07, 06:33 PM	I just made a houserule to give Perform (Weapon Drill) to fighters (and Warblades, and ...) as a class skill. It seems to make sense for them.
AAB 06-16-07, 10:00 PM	IMO it wouldn't be a bad idea to make it a class skill for everyone with 3/4 or full BAB progression. cuz if we just gave it to the full BAB classes the monk, swordsage, etc would be cut out. and that's no fun.
Mentar 06-18-07, 03:22 AM	I fully agree with Derren S. No bonus to bluff for feint, but when used in conjunction with an intimidate check (hopefully before combat) it would give a synergy bonus. Usually when I run games I take three skill sets and make them class skills for everyone. Craft, profession, and perform. If a 10th level warrior can't make a profession (soldier) check would you really want to take him on an adventure? "Well, he can't keep a job with the town guard, but I suppose we can take him out on the Slaad hunt." Just doesn't sound right to me.