Phalanx Fighting feat and Spears [Archive] - Wizards Community

Phalanx Fighting feat and Spears [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
PineBark
08-24-07, 03:06 AM I'm having some problems with the Phalanx Fighting feat from Complete Warrior. Well, actualy, I think it's completely retarded:
It add's +1 to your AC if you're wielding a Heavy Shield and a Light Weapon, and an additional +2 to AC if you have a friend nearby who does the same and has the same feat. Now this would look normal if Light weapons weren't small axes, daggers etc. I can't imagine how this feat is supposed to work with those weapons, but it seems it does so I'm looking for a way to houserule it, without breaking something.
One idea I have is making it work with One-Handed weapons too.

Another addition I'd like to do is making Spears and Short Spears one category lighter: Short Spears to Light Weapons and Spears to One-Handed Weapons, since I think spears are broken, and it would allow Phalanx Fighting work the way real Phalanx formations worked.

Do you think any of this could overpower the feat? And would the spears upgraded this way be too powerful even without the feat?
tarkin
08-24-07, 10:52 AM List of Light weapons that seem appropriate for Phalanx fighting to me:

Light Mace
Sickle
Cutlass
Light Pick
Short Sword.

The way I would handle it is to do ANOTHER feat.

Build on the tree, don't simply expand the existing feat.

That way it is more valuable for Fighters, but not better for Barbarians (the people that Phalanx was mostly used against)

Specifically, this is what I would offer:

Improved Phalanx Fighting
Pre-req: Proficiency with heavy shield, BAB +1

When doing Phalanx Fighting you can use any one handed polearm (such as short spear or trident, )in addition to the standard light weapon allowed by Phalanx Fighting.

In addition, a shield wall provides an extra +3 bonus to AC instead of just +2, and you get a +2 bonus to reflex saves instead of just +1.

Special: A fighter may select Improved Phalanx Fighting as one of his fighter bonus feats.
Tetsubo
08-24-07, 11:24 AM One idea I've been playing with...

A Longspear is normally a two-handed Simple weapon. When used by a character with the Martial skill he can use it as a two-handed Martial weapon AND still use a Light or Heavy shield at the same time. This allows you to reflect the Phalanx Fighter better I think.

The Spear when used by a character with Martial skill goes from a two-handed weapon to a one-handed weapon...
jaelis
08-24-07, 11:35 AM A Longspear is normally a two-handed Simple weapon. When used by a character with the Martial skill he can use it as a two-handed Martial weapon AND still use a Light or Heavy shield at the same time. This allows you to reflect the Phalanx Fighter better I think.

Better to allow a character to wield a longspear as a 1H weapon when using a shield. I think there's a feat in Dragon that does this even. Giving a character a shield and still allowing all the benefits of a 2H weapon seems a little unreasonable to me.

Regarding the OP, I always pictured the spear + shield wall style as separate people... the shield bearers would have a short sword and stand in front, while the second rank stands behind with the longspear. You could add a provision to Phalanx fighting that if you have have the feat, then when wielding a longspear, any allies that also have the feat don't provide cover for your enemies.
1 ton ghost
08-24-07, 11:39 AM your argument is totally sound though the game rules don't really interpret historical applications that are fairly basic and understood. still, you're point should be implemented post haste.

Roman legions "tortoise"-the legionaires used a drusus (shortsword basically) and large, sometimes tower shields; good in formation. i mean, Hell, it pretty much helped them conquer the known world, yes?
Ancient Greek Phalnax-spears...c'mon, we've all seen it a million times and spears should be allowable in phalnax situations.

the idea is so simple geometrically speaking it should translate to basic mechanics in game easilly enough but, oh no, spear isn't technically a light weapon. perhaps short spears are more phalanx specific, but DM's discretion and all that.
i think they used them so much "back in the day" as they were cheap, easy to make, but more versatile; you have the option to go to ranged instantly and that reach, even an extra foot or 2, is a world of difference when the other guy is using a short blade
Tetsubo
08-24-07, 11:42 AM Better to allow a character to wield a longspear as a 1H weapon when using a shield. I think there's a feat in Dragon that does this even. Giving a character a shield and still allowing all the benefits of a 2H weapon seems a little unreasonable to me.

Regarding the OP, I always pictured the spear + shield wall style as separate people... the shield bearers would have a short sword and stand in front, while the second rank stands behind with the longspear. You could add a provision to Phalanx fighting that if you have have the feat, then when wielding a longspear, any allies that also have the feat don't provide cover for your enemies.

Well, in my defense I am basing this idea off of reality. The shield would have a strap that carried the load across the opposite shoulder, like carrying a messenger bag. The off hand would sort of guild it while both hands held the spear. This was suited to large formations, like a Phalanx. Which isn't something that D&D characters normally ever do... You can't have a shield wall with a four person party and only one of them being a full BAB fighter type...

The Macedonian Phalanx was sixteen men across and sixteen men deep, for 256 in a single Phalanx "square". Each man using a spear 15' - 18' long and using a shield... that isn't easily reflected in the abstract mechanics of D&D...
jaelis
08-24-07, 12:33 PM Well, in my defense I am basing this idea off of reality.
My comment was really about mechanics. As flavor, you could picture really holding the spear in two hands, but just rule that you treat it as a 1H weapon because it's kind of awkward or whatever.
BlackFiend
08-24-07, 02:42 PM The greeks used a specialized shield (hoplon) that made it possible for them to hold their spears as they did during phalanx fighting. A type not scene in medieval times.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
PineBark 08-24-07, 03:06 AM	I'm having some problems with the Phalanx Fighting feat from Complete Warrior. Well, actualy, I think it's completely retarded: It add's +1 to your AC if you're wielding a Heavy Shield and a Light Weapon, and an additional +2 to AC if you have a friend nearby who does the same and has the same feat. Now this would look normal if Light weapons weren't small axes, daggers etc. I can't imagine how this feat is supposed to work with those weapons, but it seems it does so I'm looking for a way to houserule it, without breaking something. One idea I have is making it work with One-Handed weapons too. Another addition I'd like to do is making Spears and Short Spears one category lighter: Short Spears to Light Weapons and Spears to One-Handed Weapons, since I think spears are broken, and it would allow Phalanx Fighting work the way real Phalanx formations worked. Do you think any of this could overpower the feat? And would the spears upgraded this way be too powerful even without the feat?
tarkin 08-24-07, 10:52 AM	List of Light weapons that seem appropriate for Phalanx fighting to me: Light Mace Sickle Cutlass Light Pick Short Sword. The way I would handle it is to do ANOTHER feat. Build on the tree, don't simply expand the existing feat. That way it is more valuable for Fighters, but not better for Barbarians (the people that Phalanx was mostly used against) Specifically, this is what I would offer: Improved Phalanx Fighting Pre-req: Proficiency with heavy shield, BAB +1 When doing Phalanx Fighting you can use any one handed polearm (such as short spear or trident, )in addition to the standard light weapon allowed by Phalanx Fighting. In addition, a shield wall provides an extra +3 bonus to AC instead of just +2, and you get a +2 bonus to reflex saves instead of just +1. Special: A fighter may select Improved Phalanx Fighting as one of his fighter bonus feats.
Tetsubo 08-24-07, 11:24 AM	One idea I've been playing with... A Longspear is normally a two-handed Simple weapon. When used by a character with the Martial skill he can use it as a two-handed Martial weapon AND still use a Light or Heavy shield at the same time. This allows you to reflect the Phalanx Fighter better I think. The Spear when used by a character with Martial skill goes from a two-handed weapon to a one-handed weapon...
jaelis 08-24-07, 11:35 AM	A Longspear is normally a two-handed Simple weapon. When used by a character with the Martial skill he can use it as a two-handed Martial weapon AND still use a Light or Heavy shield at the same time. This allows you to reflect the Phalanx Fighter better I think. Better to allow a character to wield a longspear as a 1H weapon when using a shield. I think there's a feat in Dragon that does this even. Giving a character a shield and still allowing all the benefits of a 2H weapon seems a little unreasonable to me. Regarding the OP, I always pictured the spear + shield wall style as separate people... the shield bearers would have a short sword and stand in front, while the second rank stands behind with the longspear. You could add a provision to Phalanx fighting that if you have have the feat, then when wielding a longspear, any allies that also have the feat don't provide cover for your enemies.
1 ton ghost 08-24-07, 11:39 AM	your argument is totally sound though the game rules don't really interpret historical applications that are fairly basic and understood. still, you're point should be implemented post haste. Roman legions "tortoise"-the legionaires used a drusus (shortsword basically) and large, sometimes tower shields; good in formation. i mean, Hell, it pretty much helped them conquer the known world, yes? Ancient Greek Phalnax-spears...c'mon, we've all seen it a million times and spears should be allowable in phalnax situations. the idea is so simple geometrically speaking it should translate to basic mechanics in game easilly enough but, oh no, spear isn't technically a light weapon. perhaps short spears are more phalanx specific, but DM's discretion and all that. i think they used them so much "back in the day" as they were cheap, easy to make, but more versatile; you have the option to go to ranged instantly and that reach, even an extra foot or 2, is a world of difference when the other guy is using a short blade
Tetsubo 08-24-07, 11:42 AM	Better to allow a character to wield a longspear as a 1H weapon when using a shield. I think there's a feat in Dragon that does this even. Giving a character a shield and still allowing all the benefits of a 2H weapon seems a little unreasonable to me. Regarding the OP, I always pictured the spear + shield wall style as separate people... the shield bearers would have a short sword and stand in front, while the second rank stands behind with the longspear. You could add a provision to Phalanx fighting that if you have have the feat, then when wielding a longspear, any allies that also have the feat don't provide cover for your enemies. Well, in my defense I am basing this idea off of reality. The shield would have a strap that carried the load across the opposite shoulder, like carrying a messenger bag. The off hand would sort of guild it while both hands held the spear. This was suited to large formations, like a Phalanx. Which isn't something that D&D characters normally ever do... You can't have a shield wall with a four person party and only one of them being a full BAB fighter type... The Macedonian Phalanx was sixteen men across and sixteen men deep, for 256 in a single Phalanx "square". Each man using a spear 15' - 18' long and using a shield... that isn't easily reflected in the abstract mechanics of D&D...
jaelis 08-24-07, 12:33 PM	Well, in my defense I am basing this idea off of reality. My comment was really about mechanics. As flavor, you could picture really holding the spear in two hands, but just rule that you treat it as a 1H weapon because it's kind of awkward or whatever.
BlackFiend 08-24-07, 02:42 PM	The greeks used a specialized shield (hoplon) that made it possible for them to hold their spears as they did during phalanx fighting. A type not scene in medieval times.