Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Amnarii 06-22-07, 03:30 AM	I am playing an arcane trickster pixie, and the sleight of hand skill in regards to picking pockets has recently upset my DM. He doesn't believe a straight DC20 check works to determine success or failure of picking a pocket... he wants some mechanic, aside from the spot check, to both increase (or decrease) the DC for picking a pocket, as well as providing a means of not just spotting the thief, but catching and/or preventing the thief. My suggestion was to simply add a reflex save on any successful spot, DC = the sleight of hand check. If the save succeeds, the target not only spots you, but either retains their item (by dodging out of the way, twisting a bit, starting to run, etc.) OR has caught your hand and can initiate grappling to hold you OR attempt to attack you with a surprise round before initiative is rolled. This still doesn't have any scalar DC to succeed at the base check versus differing targets...any thoughts on an easy mechanic for that too? Any other suggestions?
Ezurus 06-22-07, 04:29 AM	I think the game rules are fair enough. I say that the pick pocket attempt should pretty much be considered your surprise round in most circumstances. Of course, if he doesn't spot you there won't be any combat anyways. He doesn't need a reflex save to stop you, he aready get's an initiative roll. The situation is: you just grabbed an item, he just saw you... the winner in this situation will probably be the one who gets to act next. If he wins initiative, he CAN initiate a grapple. The item will still be in your hand. So he can make an unarmed disarm attempt to snatch the item back. Did you have a weapon drawn? Probably not, or he would have a chance to notice that and maybe would be on guard. So he wouldn't probably wouldn't be worried about an attack of opportunity. I think it's tough enough being a thief without having a bunch of extra penalties piled on.
Ezurus 06-22-07, 04:35 AM	As for increasing and decreasing the DC, there's a -5 penalty to spot if he's distracted. There's also a penalty if you have failed or if he has observed you already. Since the rules only talk about small objects, I would think that larger objects might give him a bonus to the spot check (easier to notice) and smaller objects might increase the DC (harder to reach/manipulate/find). Also, how the object is carried might be taken into consideration. I wouldn't be surprised if some of the books other than PHB have covered possible modifications, but I'm too tired to look. Goodnight. :zzz:
Amnarii 06-22-07, 02:36 PM	Well, I do agree with you to a point. The DM, however, believes there should be a machanic OTHER than a straight DC20 check for ANYTHING, which I agree can be ridiculously easy for any thief style character from 3rd level on...Say an 18 (+4) Dexterity, 6 ranks in the skill, and Skill Focus - that is +13; a roll of 7 or better on d20 gets the item in question no matter what - that gives you a 65% chance of success. This assumes you use no spells or magic items to enhance the check, though at 3rd level those are admittedly few and far between (though available for a successful pickpocket in a city large enough to buy potions, or wands and scrolls and UMD). That means that, by the rules, a coin inside a pouch inside a cloak is DC20. A necklace or amulet, or a ring or bracelet (magical or not) is DC20. A sword in a sheath, perhaps with a buckle on it, is DC20. A shield slung over the shoulder (being worn, not wielded) is DC20. A pair of pants, a shirt, or even a pair of underwear (if worn) is DC20. I agree in this to a degree, but not as strongly as the DM. So I am attempting to research a compromise. On the spot check / surprise round bit, I do agree with you completely. However this DM doesn't agree it should work that way. He believes they should have a chance to notice the thief before they attempt the pocket picking, and prevent the sleight of hand check entirely. That is where I came up with the Reflex save mechanic. I would prefer it stay straight from the book, but for now my options are to never pick a pocket because of how he handles it now (deciding by the seat of his pants if I succeed or not, regardless of any and all rolls), or work with the DM to come up with a mechanic which can be used across the board, for my character (and any other PCs who choose to pick pockets), as well as for NPCs targeting the party. My first suggestion to the DM was to require a bluff vs. sense motive check to determine if the target is aware before the attempt and has a chance to prevent the attempt. He agreed, then started expounding, making it an optional check to get a bonus or penalty to the sleight of hand, and negating the very reason I suggested this. I pointed it out, and he said "well, you're right, but the thief isn't always going to bluff his way close...". Frustrated, I asked him to drop that line of thinking, and now have started looking at the reflex save above. As I wrote it, they can become aware of the attempt in time to entirely avoid it and keep their item (run away, dodge, twist away, etc.), or they can let you make the attempt as normal and get the item if you succeed the check, but then get a surprise round on you when they grab you (grapple) or beat the crap out of you (normal armed/unarmed attack). I think is is simple and elegant. It gives the target a choice of reactions, and is reliant on a reflex save which should be a fair representation of the target's ability to catch you as you are just starting the attempt. I believe the DM will accept it with little to no modifications to complicate it. I am still open to suggestions though. Now I just need to determine a good scalar DC for differing types items on the target.
Dheran 06-22-07, 02:43 PM	The normal Sleight of Hand skill rules are written assuming medium creatures. But pixies are one size category smaller. So I'd replace "Lift a small object from a person" with "Lift a tiny object from a person", that being the upper size limit for objects that your pixie can filch with a DC 20 SoH check. That would mean your pixie could grab individual coins but not a whole purse.
Skara 06-22-07, 04:18 PM	I don't think they meant small as in size category. Gnomes are 'small'.
Vharuck 06-22-07, 04:25 PM	Cirumstance bonuses and or penalties. If the DM read the DMG, he would be aware of these options. Such as the coin inside the coinpurse inside the pocket inside the cloak. I'd say that adds a +2 circumstance bonus to the DC for each obstacle beyond the first, so that'd end up being a DC 24 check. Maybe even more, if the coinpurse was designed to foil pickpocketers.
Amnarii 06-22-07, 04:28 PM	Actually, from the SRD...A DC 10 Sleight of Hand check lets you palm a coin-sized, unattended object. Performing a minor feat of legerdemain, such as making a coin disappear, also has a DC of 10 unless an observer is determined to note where the item went. When you use this skill under close observation, your skill check is opposed by the observer’s Spot check. The observer’s success doesn’t prevent you from performing the action, just from doing it unnoticed. You can hide a small object (including a light weapon or an easily concealed ranged weapon, such as a dart, sling, or hand crossbow) on your body. Your Sleight of Hand check is opposed by the Spot check of anyone observing you or the Search check of anyone frisking you. In the latter case, the searcher gains a +4 bonus on the Search check, since it’s generally easier to find such an object than to hide it. A dagger is easier to hide than most light weapons, and grants you a +2 bonus on your Sleight of Hand check to conceal it. An extraordinarily small object, such as a coin, shuriken, or ring, grants you a +4 bonus on your Sleight of Hand check to conceal it, and heavy or baggy clothing (such as a cloak) grants you a +2 bonus on the check. Drawing a hidden weapon is a standard action and doesn’t provoke an attack of opportunity. If you try to take something from another creature, you must make a DC 20 Sleight of Hand check to obtain it. The opponent makes a Spot check to detect the attempt, opposed by the same Sleight of Hand check result you achieved when you tried to grab the item. An opponent who succeeds on this check notices the attempt, regardless of whether you got the item. You can also use Sleight of Hand to entertain an audience as though you were using the Perform skill. In such a case, your “act” encompasses elements of legerdemain, juggling, and the like. ((Emphasis mine.)) Note that there is no distinction on what you can take from another creature, by size, location, how it is secured, etc. It uses the words 'something' and 'the item' which limits it to a single item, but of any size, and from any location. Of course, no sane DM will let you steal anything, such as a target's underwear, or a coin from a pouch in a bag in a bag of holding in a backpack, with a simple DC20 skill check. But Rules As Written, you can. Since my DM is going overboard on nerfing the skill, I want to come up with a fair mechanic that can apply to my character as well as NPC's attempting to burgle the party.
Amnarii 06-22-07, 04:41 PM	Cirumstance bonuses and or penalties. If the DM read the DMG, he would be aware of these options. Such as the coin inside the coinpurse inside the pocket inside the cloak. I'd say that adds a +2 circumstance bonus to the DC for each obstacle beyond the first, so that'd end up being a DC 24 check. Maybe even more, if the coinpurse was designed to foil pickpocketers. This is the essence of what I want, except this DM is going overboard on the use of boni and penalties; as well as seemingly random occurrences which happen regardless of skill checks. Which is why I would like to have a definite table to use for myself and for NPCs, which defines the bonus and/or penalty for varying situations. +2 per 'obstacle' sounds reasonable - here's a loose idea based on that. Base DC (visible on person, not 'secured') . . . 20 inside container . . . +2 per container (if nested) 'secured' (tied, buckled, clasped) . . . +4 not visible (under cloak, in an open pocket, etc.) . . . +2 Size: Item is 1 size category smaller than pickpocket . . . +0 Each category smaller . . . -1 Each category larger . . . +1 Item has no appreciable weight, or is no more than 1/10 pound . . . +0 Per 1/2 pound of weight . . . +2
Ezurus 06-22-07, 04:48 PM	I don't think that the skill description is refering to size categories either. Looking at the creature size chart (MM 314), I would think that to Pick Pocket, a good rule of thumb would be that the 20 DC check given is for an object two size categories smaller than the perp. If it is a smaller object, it should perhaps go up 5 because it is harder to get your hands on something so small, and for every category bigger, decrease the DC by 5. Now for the spot check, I think that the size of the victim compared to the object should be considered. An object 2 size categories smaller is the default check, no penalty nor bonus. For every size category bigger, give a +5 bonus to spot, and for every size cat smaller, a -5 to spot. And, just to make sure that you can't abuse these rules too much by being really small and such, you get a -10 penalty to your slight of hand check (in addition to dex restrictions) for every carrying capacity category increase that is caused by the object pilfered. Just some ideas off the top of my head :).
Ezurus 06-22-07, 05:03 PM	For nested items, I would consider a seperate sleight of hand check to open the item. I personally picture pick pocketing as a quick, subtle grap type thing. So if they have it in a fastened container of some sort, it would be a check to open it, then another to grab it. For layers of clothing and such, I think a +/- 2 circumstance bonus/penalty for pretty much anything that might make it harder or easier would make sense. My ideas for size seem to be more extreme than others, but if you think about it, a small item can weigh like 30 lb or more. I really think it should be a big bonus to spot for such things. And I was thinking that the nor should maybe be for 3 size categories smaller instead of 2. I mean a 1-8 lb item would still be pretty easy to notice missing, whereas a 1/8 lb - 1 lb item would be a more typical pick pocket target (for medium creatures).