Poison use as a feat? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Poison use as a feat? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Kanachi
02-27-07, 06:02 PM I originally started this as a thread similar to this in the equipment forum (as poisons are equipment I assumed that would be the correct place) however it’s become obvious that my query has in fact ultimately become a feat question.

Anyway, it would be ace if anyone was willing to off an opinion on the following question :)….

Do you guys think it would be unbalanced to make the poison use class ability into a feat?

Would this break the game? Or be simply to powerful?

I really think having to take 3 levels in ninja just to gain the ability (or becoming an assassin) is silly.
Thiez
02-27-07, 06:09 PM I can see a feat granting poison use as a class skill. Maybe with a preq. of a few ranks in Craft (Poison). To grant Craft (Poison) as a class skill, though... I think it's a bit much.
Limousine_Liberal
02-27-07, 06:09 PM I think it would be too powerful. Poisons can be powerful things and no feat gives a character the sheer damage increase (ability damage at that, much of the time) as giving him or her the ability to freely use poisons would. The closest things are feats that allow you to trade once bonus for a damage increase (like Power Attack), but granting poison use is essentially just trading a few measly gold for damage.

It would be fine as an Epic feat.
Arem_K
02-27-07, 06:21 PM Looks good to me, but then again I think the idea that I have a 1 in 20 chance of poisoning myself whenever I put down rat poison to be incredibly stupid to begin with. I think that pretty much every class has the craft skill, so I don't know how making craft (poison making) a class skill would help you.
Kanachi
02-27-07, 06:28 PM I think it would be too powerful. Poisons can be powerful things and no feat gives a character the sheer damage increase (ability damage at that, much of the time) as giving him or her the ability to freely use poisons would. The closest things are feats that allow you to trade once bonus for a damage increase (like Power Attack), but granting poison use is essentially just trading a few measly gold for damage.

It would be fine as an Epic feat.

My argument would be that poisons are extremely expensive, especially if you want to use them at high level (by which time they are far outstripped by magic anyway).

Think of it like buying a spell scroll only to have to roll a dice to determine if you are stupid enough to read it upside down and thus somehow vaporise yourself. Tis madness

I think that pretty much every class has the craft skill, so I don't know how making craft (poison making) a class skill would help you.

good point, i agree
Thiez
02-27-07, 06:31 PM Lol, an Epic feat. Yes, I'm sure taking a move action to apply some Fort save DC 26 poison is going to be very helpful when you're epic, and extremely powerful.
Kanachi
02-27-07, 06:57 PM Lol, an Epic feat. Yes, I'm sure taking a move action to apply some Fort save DC 26 poison is going to be very helpful when you're epic, and extremely powerful.

Hmmm… which poison are you refering to? Wyven poison is DC 25 and costs 3000gp a pop, do you mean that one?

regardless, look at that in context to the following:

Lets assume a druid uses the spell "poison" (which is essentially free of gp cost) at level 20... this is a poison with a DC of probably about 24 and that’s assuming that her wisdom modifier is only 4 (in reality it could easily be +6 or more).

That’s pre epic a 3rd level spell which delivers its load as a touch attack as a standard action…

I don’t see the druid paying out a couple of grand every time she wants to use it as well.

Lets also not forget that even after you have applied a poison to your weapon as a move action (probably out of combat to avoid AOO) you a still have to deliver it as a standard (not a touch) attack.

If anything I see poisons/poison use as underpowered.
Thiez
02-27-07, 07:24 PM ... I guess sarcasm on the internet is even harder to recognize than I initially expected.
Kanachi
02-27-07, 08:18 PM arrrr... ok my bad.

ok very embarrassed now. There is nothing wrong with the way in which you wrote your sarcasm, lol just obviously something wrong with my brain. :thinks: :D

sorry!!!
Willie the Duck
02-27-07, 09:03 PM Poison, as a general rule, is quite underwhelming (extreme price per use, relatively low dcs for most, preparing the right draining for the right situation -- how often is wis damage important unless picking off a cleric?, is more effective against the pcs than in their hands -- no one cares what happens to their enemies 10 rounds after combat starts, etc.) Except for one small factor: it is a bonus that you can add on top of your regular attack, prepared ahead of time. If you can pay for 50 doses of the stuff, you can give your dwarven fighter an antitoxin, cast bear's endurance on him, and have him dip 50 arrows or quarrels with poison. If he does pr ick his finger (which should happen 2.5 times), you can have some lesser restorations ready or just have him rest until his scores are back -- the poison will still be there. They can be cold iron +1 icy burst keen shocking burst arrows, you can cast greater magic weapon on them, and shoot them from your +1 distance, splitting longbow, and the poison will be on top of all that.

Is that important? Does that make it broken (or strong enough to be restricted to one base class and 2-3 PrCs?)? I don't think so, but I understand why WotC decided to keep it a class feature (so that every martial character, who isn't using their skill points on anything better than craft (poison) anyway, to pick this up as one more buff to their shock trooper battle jump build).

Thus, my opinion? It belongs as a class feature (or maybe a high level end to a feat tree), strictly so that evey tom dick and harry doesn't pick it up. However, it should be more common (more classes and PrCs should be able to get it. Ninjas, assassins and Blackflame zealots? That's it?).
Thiez
02-28-07, 06:44 AM If you have a prereq. of a few ranks in Craft (Poison), it wouldn't be something 'evey tom dick and harry' would pick up. :)

Hey, you can even have a prerequisite of BaB +X. That would make sense.
Kanachi
02-28-07, 02:59 PM How about this:

Poison Mastery

Prerequisite: Dex 13, Int 13, Base attack bonus +3, Craft (Poison) 8 ranks

Benefit: You are trained in the use of poison and never risk accidentally poisoning yourself when applying poison.
Limousine_Liberal
02-28-07, 03:49 PM Lol, an Epic feat. Yes, I'm sure taking a move action to apply some Fort save DC 26 poison is going to be very helpful when you're epic, and extremely powerful.

I never said it would be an awesome Epic feat. I'd suggest you actually read the Epic Level Handbook. You'll see that it has many underwhelming feats.

Augmented Alchemy, Improved Sneak Attack and Improved Combat Casting don't strike me as overwhelming either. Many of the not-so-powerful epic feats have crappy regular feats as prerequisites.

The point is not that it vastly enhances the power of Epic characters, but that it's too powerful relative to the regular feats, at least at low levels.

Thus, my opinion? It belongs as a class feature (or maybe a high level end to a feat tree), strictly so that evey tom dick and harry doesn't pick it up. However, it should be more common (more classes and PrCs should be able to get it. Ninjas, assassins and Blackflame zealots? That's it?).

I could agree with that. Put it at the top of a feat chain where only high level characters can get it and it should be fine too, even pre-Epic.
Willie the Duck
02-28-07, 06:54 PM I'm not sure that's what I meant. It really is fine as a feat you can get as a sixth or seventh level character (assassin or BFZ). Kinda overpowered for a ninja3, but hey, you're eating three levels of a really bad class to get it. I just don't like the feat as Kanachi made it. Why? Because every fighter is going to take it, throw their useless skill points into craft(poison), and every time the wizard makes a magic item, use the time to turn 500 gp into a dose of 1500 gp poison. It really needs some kind of limitation that keeps it within the venue of sneaky character types, instead of every warrior type out there.
Kanachi
02-28-07, 08:15 PM I'm not sure that's what I meant. It really is fine as a feat you can get as a sixth or seventh level character (assassin or BFZ). Kinda overpowered for a ninja3, but hey, you're eating three levels of a really bad class to get it. I just don't like the feat as Kanachi made it. Why? Because every fighter is going to take it, throw their useless skill points into craft(poison), and every time the wizard makes a magic item, use the time to turn 500 gp into a dose of 1500 gp poison. It really needs some kind of limitation that keeps it within the venue of sneaky character types, instead of every warrior type out there.

that’s why I put the int + dex requirements in there, alot of fighters wont have 13 or more in both these stats. This could be increased to a 15+ int requirement however, which as a second thought would make more sense.
ScipioX
03-01-07, 01:44 AM Because every fighter is going to take it

Umm, no. I don't see many people wasting a feat on such a worthless ability. Any tom, dick, and harry fighter can ALREADY poison their weapon. All they do is take a small risk of poisoning themselves, which really isn't a big deal out of combat. The fighter can simply poison all his weapons during downtime, and heal any accidental ability damage before going out adventuring.

There's going to be only a very few times when you can't poison your weapons ahead of time, and of those rare times, you still need to roll a 1. There are so many better feats out there that it would be very mechanically wasteful to take Poison Mastery.
PhaedrusXY
03-01-07, 02:08 AM It wouldn't be overpowered if you gave it to everyone for free. Poison sucks in D&D. It is too expensive and unreliable.
Real_iceman
03-01-07, 07:46 AM Actually there is a feat like that in the assasins handbook from green ronin...
-------------------------------------------------------
Poison use ( general )
You are trained to use poisons with no risk to yourself.

prerequistite: Dex 13+
Benefit: You never risk accidentally poisoning yourself when applying poisnon to a blade, or use it in combat.

-----------------------------------------------------------
I dont think it is to powerfull. Hope this helps OP
paladin2019
03-01-07, 08:45 AM I don't think it's a good idea from a flavor perspective. Assassins can get poison use at their 6th character level and they are supposed to be the master poisoners. Some other classes also had poison use, but they all generally had it at the same time or later character levels. The ability is spread around, but doesn't dilute the flavor of assassins as the primary users. Then the ninja is published and they can get at their 3rd character level and oh by the way they get an improved version of the ability at 9th (?) level. Now we have dilution of the assassin's schtick, in a core class no less (one of the many reasons I don't like ninja).

To allow poison use with a feat, the prerequisites should be set to prevent acquisiton prior to 6th or 7th level in order to maintain flavor.
Real_iceman
03-01-07, 09:55 AM I don't think it's a good idea from a flavor perspective. Assassins can get poison use at their 6th character level and they are supposed to be the master poisoners. Some other classes also had poison use, but they all generally had it at the same time or later character levels. The ability is spread around, but doesn't dilute the flavor of assassins as the primary users. Then the ninja is published and they can get at their 3rd character level and oh by the way they get an improved version of the ability at 9th (?) level. Now we have dilution of the assassin's schtick, in a core class no less (one of the many reasons I don't like ninja).

To allow poison use with a feat, the prerequisites should be set to prevent acquisiton prior to 6th or 7th level in order to maintain flavor.

i agree when i think about it, it does ruin one of the main thing of being an assassin, to use poison. which preq should it have ...at least dex of 13 or more and should it be that you have to be at least lvl 6 or 7..... i agree with 7. ( By the way i hate ninjas to)
Willie the Duck
03-02-07, 02:31 AM I don't think it's a good idea from a flavor perspective. Assassins can get poison use at their 6th character level and they are supposed to be the master poisoners. Some other classes also had poison use, but they all generally had it at the same time or later character levels. The ability is spread around, but doesn't dilute the flavor of assassins as the primary users. Then the ninja is published and they can get at their 3rd character level and oh by the way they get an improved version of the ability at 9th (?) level. Now we have dilution of the assassin's schtick, in a core class no less (one of the many reasons I don't like ninja).

To allow poison use with a feat, the prerequisites should be set to prevent acquisiton prior to 6th or 7th level in order to maintain flavor.

Ninja is a base class, not a core class.
paladin2019
03-02-07, 10:36 AM Ninja is a base class, not a core class.

You're right, my bad, it's a base class. So there is dilution of a prestige class's schtick in a base class. That's bad for reasons of flavor and possibly balance.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Kanachi 02-27-07, 06:02 PM	I originally started this as a thread similar to this in the equipment forum (as poisons are equipment I assumed that would be the correct place) however it’s become obvious that my query has in fact ultimately become a feat question. Anyway, it would be ace if anyone was willing to off an opinion on the following question :)…. Do you guys think it would be unbalanced to make the poison use class ability into a feat? Would this break the game? Or be simply to powerful? I really think having to take 3 levels in ninja just to gain the ability (or becoming an assassin) is silly.
Thiez 02-27-07, 06:09 PM	I can see a feat granting poison use as a class skill. Maybe with a preq. of a few ranks in Craft (Poison). To grant Craft (Poison) as a class skill, though... I think it's a bit much.
Limousine_Liberal 02-27-07, 06:09 PM	I think it would be too powerful. Poisons can be powerful things and no feat gives a character the sheer damage increase (ability damage at that, much of the time) as giving him or her the ability to freely use poisons would. The closest things are feats that allow you to trade once bonus for a damage increase (like Power Attack), but granting poison use is essentially just trading a few measly gold for damage. It would be fine as an Epic feat.
Arem_K 02-27-07, 06:21 PM	Looks good to me, but then again I think the idea that I have a 1 in 20 chance of poisoning myself whenever I put down rat poison to be incredibly stupid to begin with. I think that pretty much every class has the craft skill, so I don't know how making craft (poison making) a class skill would help you.
Kanachi 02-27-07, 06:28 PM	I think it would be too powerful. Poisons can be powerful things and no feat gives a character the sheer damage increase (ability damage at that, much of the time) as giving him or her the ability to freely use poisons would. The closest things are feats that allow you to trade once bonus for a damage increase (like Power Attack), but granting poison use is essentially just trading a few measly gold for damage. It would be fine as an Epic feat. My argument would be that poisons are extremely expensive, especially if you want to use them at high level (by which time they are far outstripped by magic anyway). Think of it like buying a spell scroll only to have to roll a dice to determine if you are stupid enough to read it upside down and thus somehow vaporise yourself. Tis madness I think that pretty much every class has the craft skill, so I don't know how making craft (poison making) a class skill would help you. good point, i agree
Thiez 02-27-07, 06:31 PM	Lol, an Epic feat. Yes, I'm sure taking a move action to apply some Fort save DC 26 poison is going to be very helpful when you're epic, and extremely powerful.
Kanachi 02-27-07, 06:57 PM	Lol, an Epic feat. Yes, I'm sure taking a move action to apply some Fort save DC 26 poison is going to be very helpful when you're epic, and extremely powerful. Hmmm… which poison are you refering to? Wyven poison is DC 25 and costs 3000gp a pop, do you mean that one? regardless, look at that in context to the following: Lets assume a druid uses the spell "poison" (which is essentially free of gp cost) at level 20... this is a poison with a DC of probably about 24 and that’s assuming that her wisdom modifier is only 4 (in reality it could easily be +6 or more). That’s pre epic a 3rd level spell which delivers its load as a touch attack as a standard action… I don’t see the druid paying out a couple of grand every time she wants to use it as well. Lets also not forget that even after you have applied a poison to your weapon as a move action (probably out of combat to avoid AOO) you a still have to deliver it as a standard (not a touch) attack. If anything I see poisons/poison use as underpowered.
Thiez 02-27-07, 07:24 PM	... I guess sarcasm on the internet is even harder to recognize than I initially expected.
Kanachi 02-27-07, 08:18 PM	arrrr... ok my bad. ok very embarrassed now. There is nothing wrong with the way in which you wrote your sarcasm, lol just obviously something wrong with my brain. :thinks: :D sorry!!!
Willie the Duck 02-27-07, 09:03 PM	Poison, as a general rule, is quite underwhelming (extreme price per use, relatively low dcs for most, preparing the right draining for the right situation -- how often is wis damage important unless picking off a cleric?, is more effective against the pcs than in their hands -- no one cares what happens to their enemies 10 rounds after combat starts, etc.) Except for one small factor: it is a bonus that you can add on top of your regular attack, prepared ahead of time. If you can pay for 50 doses of the stuff, you can give your dwarven fighter an antitoxin, cast bear's endurance on him, and have him dip 50 arrows or quarrels with poison. If he does pr ick his finger (which should happen 2.5 times), you can have some lesser restorations ready or just have him rest until his scores are back -- the poison will still be there. They can be cold iron +1 icy burst keen shocking burst arrows, you can cast greater magic weapon on them, and shoot them from your +1 distance, splitting longbow, and the poison will be on top of all that. Is that important? Does that make it broken (or strong enough to be restricted to one base class and 2-3 PrCs?)? I don't think so, but I understand why WotC decided to keep it a class feature (so that every martial character, who isn't using their skill points on anything better than craft (poison) anyway, to pick this up as one more buff to their shock trooper battle jump build). Thus, my opinion? It belongs as a class feature (or maybe a high level end to a feat tree), strictly so that evey tom dick and harry doesn't pick it up. However, it should be more common (more classes and PrCs should be able to get it. Ninjas, assassins and Blackflame zealots? That's it?).
Thiez 02-28-07, 06:44 AM	If you have a prereq. of a few ranks in Craft (Poison), it wouldn't be something 'evey tom dick and harry' would pick up. :) Hey, you can even have a prerequisite of BaB +X. That would make sense.
Kanachi 02-28-07, 02:59 PM	How about this: Poison Mastery Prerequisite: Dex 13, Int 13, Base attack bonus +3, Craft (Poison) 8 ranks Benefit: You are trained in the use of poison and never risk accidentally poisoning yourself when applying poison.
Limousine_Liberal 02-28-07, 03:49 PM	Lol, an Epic feat. Yes, I'm sure taking a move action to apply some Fort save DC 26 poison is going to be very helpful when you're epic, and extremely powerful. I never said it would be an awesome Epic feat. I'd suggest you actually read the Epic Level Handbook. You'll see that it has many underwhelming feats. Augmented Alchemy, Improved Sneak Attack and Improved Combat Casting don't strike me as overwhelming either. Many of the not-so-powerful epic feats have crappy regular feats as prerequisites. The point is not that it vastly enhances the power of Epic characters, but that it's too powerful relative to the regular feats, at least at low levels. Thus, my opinion? It belongs as a class feature (or maybe a high level end to a feat tree), strictly so that evey tom dick and harry doesn't pick it up. However, it should be more common (more classes and PrCs should be able to get it. Ninjas, assassins and Blackflame zealots? That's it?). I could agree with that. Put it at the top of a feat chain where only high level characters can get it and it should be fine too, even pre-Epic.
Willie the Duck 02-28-07, 06:54 PM	I'm not sure that's what I meant. It really is fine as a feat you can get as a sixth or seventh level character (assassin or BFZ). Kinda overpowered for a ninja3, but hey, you're eating three levels of a really bad class to get it. I just don't like the feat as Kanachi made it. Why? Because every fighter is going to take it, throw their useless skill points into craft(poison), and every time the wizard makes a magic item, use the time to turn 500 gp into a dose of 1500 gp poison. It really needs some kind of limitation that keeps it within the venue of sneaky character types, instead of every warrior type out there.
Kanachi 02-28-07, 08:15 PM	I'm not sure that's what I meant. It really is fine as a feat you can get as a sixth or seventh level character (assassin or BFZ). Kinda overpowered for a ninja3, but hey, you're eating three levels of a really bad class to get it. I just don't like the feat as Kanachi made it. Why? Because every fighter is going to take it, throw their useless skill points into craft(poison), and every time the wizard makes a magic item, use the time to turn 500 gp into a dose of 1500 gp poison. It really needs some kind of limitation that keeps it within the venue of sneaky character types, instead of every warrior type out there. that’s why I put the int + dex requirements in there, alot of fighters wont have 13 or more in both these stats. This could be increased to a 15+ int requirement however, which as a second thought would make more sense.
ScipioX 03-01-07, 01:44 AM	Because every fighter is going to take it Umm, no. I don't see many people wasting a feat on such a worthless ability. Any tom, dick, and harry fighter can ALREADY poison their weapon. All they do is take a small risk of poisoning themselves, which really isn't a big deal out of combat. The fighter can simply poison all his weapons during downtime, and heal any accidental ability damage before going out adventuring. There's going to be only a very few times when you can't poison your weapons ahead of time, and of those rare times, you still need to roll a 1. There are so many better feats out there that it would be very mechanically wasteful to take Poison Mastery.
PhaedrusXY 03-01-07, 02:08 AM	It wouldn't be overpowered if you gave it to everyone for free. Poison sucks in D&D. It is too expensive and unreliable.
Real_iceman 03-01-07, 07:46 AM	Actually there is a feat like that in the assasins handbook from green ronin... ------------------------------------------------------- Poison use ( general ) You are trained to use poisons with no risk to yourself. prerequistite: Dex 13+ Benefit: You never risk accidentally poisoning yourself when applying poisnon to a blade, or use it in combat. ----------------------------------------------------------- I dont think it is to powerfull. Hope this helps OP
paladin2019 03-01-07, 08:45 AM	I don't think it's a good idea from a flavor perspective. Assassins can get poison use at their 6th character level and they are supposed to be the master poisoners. Some other classes also had poison use, but they all generally had it at the same time or later character levels. The ability is spread around, but doesn't dilute the flavor of assassins as the primary users. Then the ninja is published and they can get at their 3rd character level and oh by the way they get an improved version of the ability at 9th (?) level. Now we have dilution of the assassin's schtick, in a core class no less (one of the many reasons I don't like ninja). To allow poison use with a feat, the prerequisites should be set to prevent acquisiton prior to 6th or 7th level in order to maintain flavor.
Real_iceman 03-01-07, 09:55 AM	I don't think it's a good idea from a flavor perspective. Assassins can get poison use at their 6th character level and they are supposed to be the master poisoners. Some other classes also had poison use, but they all generally had it at the same time or later character levels. The ability is spread around, but doesn't dilute the flavor of assassins as the primary users. Then the ninja is published and they can get at their 3rd character level and oh by the way they get an improved version of the ability at 9th (?) level. Now we have dilution of the assassin's schtick, in a core class no less (one of the many reasons I don't like ninja). To allow poison use with a feat, the prerequisites should be set to prevent acquisiton prior to 6th or 7th level in order to maintain flavor. i agree when i think about it, it does ruin one of the main thing of being an assassin, to use poison. which preq should it have ...at least dex of 13 or more and should it be that you have to be at least lvl 6 or 7..... i agree with 7. ( By the way i hate ninjas to)
Willie the Duck 03-02-07, 02:31 AM	I don't think it's a good idea from a flavor perspective. Assassins can get poison use at their 6th character level and they are supposed to be the master poisoners. Some other classes also had poison use, but they all generally had it at the same time or later character levels. The ability is spread around, but doesn't dilute the flavor of assassins as the primary users. Then the ninja is published and they can get at their 3rd character level and oh by the way they get an improved version of the ability at 9th (?) level. Now we have dilution of the assassin's schtick, in a core class no less (one of the many reasons I don't like ninja). To allow poison use with a feat, the prerequisites should be set to prevent acquisiton prior to 6th or 7th level in order to maintain flavor. Ninja is a base class, not a core class.
paladin2019 03-02-07, 10:36 AM	Ninja is a base class, not a core class. You're right, my bad, it's a base class. So there is dilution of a prestige class's schtick in a base class. That's bad for reasons of flavor and possibly balance.