Poor Blacksmith [Archive] - Wizards Community

Poor Blacksmith [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Cruhand
03-13-07, 10:13 AM I was just trying to make a character that utilized the Craft Skill when I started thinking a bit, the poor smiths don't get much free time do they?

Not sure if I understood this right, but here goes:

The Craft DC for a Full Plate is equal to 18 (10+AC bonus), and the price is 1500 gp.

Lets make an npc to make this full plate for us.
Human Expert 3
Since he always knew he was going to be smith he has tried to take feats and skill to utilize this. He has 15 Intelligence so that gives him a +2 bonus, he manages to get +5 from feats, and has maxed the skill at +6. He also has masterworked tools that gives him a +2 to the skill.
Now, that gives him a total of +15 in the skill to begin with.

With Take 10 that isn't enough to increase the DC by a multiple of 10, so he is stuck with doing the DC at 18. 18*25=450 sp/week or cp/day.

Since this poor fellow lives in the world of Eberron where the week doesn't have 10 days, he have to calculate by day. The price he's calculating against is 150000 = 333,33 days. In Eberron 1 year is 336 days. This means he spends almost the *entire* year making one single full plate - and he doesn't really have time for anything else during that time either.
Boy is he glad he didn't try to make an adamantine version of the plate, as he would've been stuck for 3666,67 days... (which is 10,9 years in Eberron). If he had started that project right after he gradutated from the complex Expert Class at 22 years of age (15+2d6), he would've had 2 years to enjoy the spoils of his craft before becoming middle aged. or he could've made 2 more plates before he retired.

165000 silver pieces he sold the thing for, minus the 55000 he spent to make the item, a net profit of 110000 sp.
(If hired by a PC he would earn 14668 sp (13%) in the same amount of time by doing nothing! Or doing dedicated work he could earn about 6540 gp in that period (so it ain't THAT of a high pay for the amount of time spent).)

Its neigh impossible for a PC to make useful high-end items because of how the time/cost system is laid out.. which was probably -some- of the intent, but come on.. even a dedicated smith wouldn't spend 10 years making one single item. And since there are only so many smiths out there, if they were to make all the full-plates and other heavy and expensive stuff that were needed for adventurers and villains, there wouldn't be any other items to get. And obviously this isn't the case, so there must be some flaw in the system.

Any ideas on how I should handle this as player and/or DM? Or should I just accept the fact and tell my dwarven character that wished for an adamantine battle plate that he actually have to add 8+ years to his backstory just to be able to finish his armour in time? :)

- Cru
tarkin
03-13-07, 10:39 AM 1. You can take raise the DC by +10. This increases the amount of work done in a given time period significnatly.

2. The times for crafting actually work out fairly realistic. The things that are expensive are expensive usually because it took smiths a LONG time to make them.

3. The game is called Dungeons and Dragons, not Blacksmiths and Shopkeepers. Crafting is not something that players are supposed to be doing in large numbers. Pay NPCs to do it while you adventure.

4. Magic item creation also takes a long time. Players should be given sufficient 'off time' to make things they want to make. They should not be forced to live a horrible existence, always trapped in a dungeon, each day fighting for their life. They deserve to spend months, even years, living a life of luxury that they have earned, then perhaps going off and adventuring for s relatively SHORT time, before they return to the life of luxury. Ruling that they spend their short life as miserable cogs in a killing machine is unrealistic, foolish, and also incompatible with making any item, magic or non-magical.

5. There were optional rules, intended for use with ship-building, allowing a large project to be worked on by multiple people. This in effect tremdously cuts down the time limit, if you house rule that those rules can be used for other crafting. Note, this is in ADDITION to the normal "Aid Another" rules.

6. There is the spell Fabricate, that lets a crafting person reduce time to one round. Note, Fabricate does not in any way reduce the amount of gold, or the craft ranks that you need to make the item. A generous DM can allow for Wizard to create a magic item that lets people cast Fabricate. For example, an Anvil of Fabricate. I would allow a 30% price reduction if it were restricted to just a single craft skill. If it allows two craft skills, maybe a 10% price reduction.
Nephlite
03-13-07, 10:42 AM I was just trying to make a character that utilized the Craft Skill when I started thinking a bit, the poor smiths don't get much free time do they?

Not sure if I understood this right, but here goes:

The Craft DC for a Full Plate is equal to 18 (10+AC bonus), and the price is 1500 gp.

Lets make an npc to make this full plate for us.
Human Expert 3
Since he always knew he was going to be smith he has tried to take feats and skill to utilize this. He has 15 Intelligence so that gives him a +2 bonus, he manages to get +5 from feats, and has maxed the skill at +6. He also has masterworked tools that gives him a +2 to the skill.
Now, that gives him a total of +15 in the skill to begin with.

With Take 10 that isn't enough to increase the DC by a multiple of 10, so he is stuck with doing the DC at 18. 18*25=450 sp/week or cp/day.

Since this poor fellow lives in the world of Eberron where the week doesn't have 10 days, he have to calculate by day. The price he's calculating against is 150000 = 333,33 days. In Eberron 1 year is 336 days. This means he spends almost the *entire* year making one single full plate - and he doesn't really have time for anything else during that time either.
Boy is he glad he didn't try to make an adamantine version of the plate, as he would've been stuck for 3666,67 days... (which is 10,9 years in Eberron). If he had started that project right after he gradutated from the complex Expert Class at 22 years of age (15+2d6), he would've had 2 years to enjoy the spoils of his craft before becoming middle aged. or he could've made 2 more plates before he retired.

165000 silver pieces he sold the thing for, minus the 55000 he spent to make the item, a net profit of 110000 sp.
(If hired by a PC he would earn 14668 sp (13%) in the same amount of time by doing nothing! Or doing dedicated work he could earn about 6540 gp in that period (so it ain't THAT of a high pay for the amount of time spent).)

Its neigh impossible for a PC to make useful high-end items because of how the time/cost system is laid out.. which was probably -some- of the intent, but come on.. even a dedicated smith wouldn't spend 10 years making one single item. And since there are only so many smiths out there, if they were to make all the full-plates and other heavy and expensive stuff that were needed for adventurers and villains, there wouldn't be any other items to get. And obviously this isn't the case, so there must be some flaw in the system.

Any ideas on how I should handle this as player and/or DM? Or should I just accept the fact and tell my dwarven character that wished for an adamantine battle plate that he actually have to add 8+ years to his backstory just to be able to finish his armour in time? :)

- Cru
True, but how did the Dwarf afford it?
If he is high level (level 10?) than he could have lots of magic/items that increase skill checks. There are numerous ones if you have the cash.

NPCs don't usually have as much cash so less magic items/spell.
GorTeX
03-13-07, 05:57 PM Since this poor fellow lives in the world of Eberron where the week doesn't have 10 days, he have to calculate by day.

Maybe I'm wrong, but D&D has 7 (or 8) day weeks..it is Forgotten realms with the 10 day weeks..so you can calculate by the week.

If you think that year is long for full plate, try calculating out Admanatine Battle plate...

(took me 2 years 10 months using a forge that gave +20 to my rolls AND allowed me to work without stopping, so I finished it in 1/3rd the time)...while the rest of the part spent their spare time fighting in an Arena..
Tukka
03-13-07, 09:56 PM Does this blacksmith have an apprentice? Anybody to collaborate with? I could imagine that on large projects like a suit of full plate, to some extent it might be crafted piecemeal.
Part-Human2
03-14-07, 01:24 AM Under Combining Skill Attempts, Aid Another allows somebody to roll a Skill check vs DC 10 to add +2 to another character using that same skill. It doesn't specify the limit of helpers and it's an unnamed bonus.
Part-Human2
03-14-07, 01:27 AM Skill Focus (Craft (Armorer)) anyone?

Dwarves get a "+2 racial bonus on Craft checks that are related to stone or metal."
ravenshrike
03-14-07, 01:30 AM The time for non-magic item creation is, to put it mildly, absurd beyond a certain point.
FrostHammer
03-14-07, 02:06 AM I put the max time to craft any one item at 60 days. It gets ridiculous if you don't cap it.
Cruhand
03-14-07, 08:51 AM Tarkin:
1. I mentioned this in my post as well, but it doesn't help to increase the DC by 10 if your skill isn't high enough to do it. My fairly average NPC-expert has only a skill of 15, so that isn't enough to increase the DC by 10. Of course, he could have an apprentice helping him out to give him aid another bonus (he would need two apprentices for this plate)

2. The times are realistic up to a certain degree, but it is for the high-end price items that the time really become screwed up. Some of the price is for balancing and availabiliy as well, and not necessarily a good measurement of how much time went into the making of the item - this is especially true for special material items.

3. If crafting wasn't meant to be a viable option it wouldn't even be a skill. Plus, even though it is a system designed mainly for combat, that doesn't mean your roleplaying experience can't contain other sides than the actual combat.

4. Agreed. But what about the poor npc smiths that is trying to make adamantine armours?

5. Do you have a reference to these optional rules? Stormwrack?

6. Most smiths doesn't have magic as an option.

--

Nephilite: That was indeed the point, the poor npc didn't have the same options to increase his craft skill the same way the dwarven PC did. Further, some characters (such as the dwarf in question) may frown upon magic, and thus want to create a sturdy non-magical armour instead. Crafting costs one third of the initial price, so if you craft an item yourself instead of buying it, you can probably get more out of it than through buying expensive magic items. Time however, is the main problem here.

--

Gortex: That was actually what I was making for this dwarf, and yes it took a long time, but fortunately we started at higher levels so I could put it into the backstory and just make my dwarf a few years older. Not sure about the Greyhawk D&D week, but I believe it is a ten day week. However, even if calculated by week on a 7 day week it is still quite a lot of time in the process.

--

Tukka: Very viable solution for the npc smiths actually, create one part each and then put it all together. Now to make some rules for that so that PC's can copy such a feat...

--

Part Human2: Aid Another can only help so much, and some smiths might not have apprentices. (Though most npc smiths that undertakes the making of a full plate probably do).
The skill focus feat is already calculated in my example. And yes, dwarves have a nice bonus to craft - which again lead me to the decision to make my dwarf able to do some smithing (that was before I realised the enormous time consumption for working with the dwarven favoured metal: Adamantine...)

--

Ravenshrike and Frosthammer: It is indeed rediculous, which was why I opened this thread. I don't know if capping at 60 days is enough for the highest end items (creating a full plate of armour even today may take up to 5 months of time). Maybe there should be a cap that decreases by the number of people working on the same task or something.

--

Thanks for all the feedback everyone. If anyone can think of a place where there are rulings for ways to "split up an armour and make the pieces separately" then please let me know. Could perhaps use some variant of the "Complex Skill Checks" variant rule in Unearthed Arcana?

Even though I already made my dwarf, its still an interesting topic for me as I do a lot of DM'ing as well, and it might be interesting to have some sort of system worked out for future references.

- Cru
chucky
03-14-07, 08:51 AM Dwarven shaper psion with the metalurgy feat and a artisen psi crystal. Adding 1 lvl of priest with artificer domain is nice also :)

Without the fabricate spell/power it does take YEARS to make the expensive weapons and armour.

There are magic forges in the children of stone book that do help alot with the time needed. One allows you to go without food/water/sleep as long as your making something with it. Essentially doubling or tripling your output.
Vintar
03-14-07, 10:20 AM One thing I would say is that craft (armorer) would synergize with craft (blacksmithing) and craft (weaponsmithing), though that doesn't help all that much.
Moccanime
03-14-07, 03:16 PM A full plate is really not something that a low level craftsman would make. The full plate is the ferrari of its time.
Also you say this is in Eberron, any craftsman worth his salt can cast magecraft somehow (either with a level of magewright or an item).

So let us say a level 5 character.
Skill: +8
Int 14: +2
Feats: +5
Masterwork tools: +2
Magecraft: +5
And if GM allows it a synergy bonus from proffesion (smith): +2

Total check bonus: 24

craft Full plate: DC 18, voluntarily add 10 to dc.

Average progress per week 952 sp. So in just under 16 weeks he can complete the armor (15 if he is a dwarf).

Now let us add two assistants, both provide a +2 bonus (aid another) so new total check bonus is 28.
The smith can now safely pump up the craft DC with another 10, for a weekly progess of 1444 sp, now the production time is down to 11 days.

BTW, since it is a full plate, we migth as well make it masterword. In both examples that would add about one week to crafting time.

Edit: Also a Smith like him would defenily not be poor. In ten weeks he would be able to craft 8 chainmails. He pays a third of the price for raw materials and the sell the suit for full price to stupid adventures. Net profit 800 gp every ten weeks. Not bad for a level 5 npc.

Edit 2: In Eberron there is 48 week per year. Working every day of every week that would allow the smith to produce 42 chainmails per year. Net profit 4200. If he put 2000 a side every year, he would, after 5 years, be able to buy a Forge of Amorsmith (10000 gp). It gives a +20 bonus on his check.
Now he would be able to produce 102 chainmails per year, net profit: 10200 gp.

Even this master smith would have trouble making a Adamantine full plate however. It would take him 49 weeks of constant work. If he saved enough money up, which is quite possible with his output, he would maybe be able to get a combined Forge of Amorsmith and Forge of Sustenance. But even then it would take him 17 weeks to make the damn thing. 17 weeks behind the forge working nonstop would drive anyone mad I think.
El_Machinae
03-14-07, 08:23 PM A note about the apprentices: with the scaling system, they're very easy to afford

Inigo Montoya's (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inigo_Montoya)father spent a year making the fancy sword.
Ogg
03-15-07, 11:24 AM The Unearthed Arcana has variant rules with Craft Points (It's SRD material too). It lets you assume characters are spending their "Off time" working on items so they can make them relatively quickly.
Vintar
03-15-07, 07:57 PM That doesn't really help NPCs though - does it?
Seghan
03-15-07, 08:32 PM I've always felt that D&D was a bit broken at the lowest (sub-PC) levels.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Cruhand 03-13-07, 10:13 AM	I was just trying to make a character that utilized the Craft Skill when I started thinking a bit, the poor smiths don't get much free time do they? Not sure if I understood this right, but here goes: The Craft DC for a Full Plate is equal to 18 (10+AC bonus), and the price is 1500 gp. Lets make an npc to make this full plate for us. Human Expert 3 Since he always knew he was going to be smith he has tried to take feats and skill to utilize this. He has 15 Intelligence so that gives him a +2 bonus, he manages to get +5 from feats, and has maxed the skill at +6. He also has masterworked tools that gives him a +2 to the skill. Now, that gives him a total of +15 in the skill to begin with. With Take 10 that isn't enough to increase the DC by a multiple of 10, so he is stuck with doing the DC at 18. 1825=450 sp/week or cp/day. Since this poor fellow lives in the world of Eberron where the week doesn't have 10 days, he have to calculate by day. The price he's calculating against is 150000 = 333,33 days. In Eberron 1 year is 336 days. This means he spends almost the entire* year making one single full plate - and he doesn't really have time for anything else during that time either. Boy is he glad he didn't try to make an adamantine version of the plate, as he would've been stuck for 3666,67 days... (which is 10,9 years in Eberron). If he had started that project right after he gradutated from the complex Expert Class at 22 years of age (15+2d6), he would've had 2 years to enjoy the spoils of his craft before becoming middle aged. or he could've made 2 more plates before he retired. 165000 silver pieces he sold the thing for, minus the 55000 he spent to make the item, a net profit of 110000 sp. (If hired by a PC he would earn 14668 sp (13%) in the same amount of time by doing nothing! Or doing dedicated work he could earn about 6540 gp in that period (so it ain't THAT of a high pay for the amount of time spent).) Its neigh impossible for a PC to make useful high-end items because of how the time/cost system is laid out.. which was probably -some- of the intent, but come on.. even a dedicated smith wouldn't spend 10 years making one single item. And since there are only so many smiths out there, if they were to make all the full-plates and other heavy and expensive stuff that were needed for adventurers and villains, there wouldn't be any other items to get. And obviously this isn't the case, so there must be some flaw in the system. Any ideas on how I should handle this as player and/or DM? Or should I just accept the fact and tell my dwarven character that wished for an adamantine battle plate that he actually have to add 8+ years to his backstory just to be able to finish his armour in time? :) - Cru
tarkin 03-13-07, 10:39 AM	1. You can take raise the DC by +10. This increases the amount of work done in a given time period significnatly. 2. The times for crafting actually work out fairly realistic. The things that are expensive are expensive usually because it took smiths a LONG time to make them. 3. The game is called Dungeons and Dragons, not Blacksmiths and Shopkeepers. Crafting is not something that players are supposed to be doing in large numbers. Pay NPCs to do it while you adventure. 4. Magic item creation also takes a long time. Players should be given sufficient 'off time' to make things they want to make. They should not be forced to live a horrible existence, always trapped in a dungeon, each day fighting for their life. They deserve to spend months, even years, living a life of luxury that they have earned, then perhaps going off and adventuring for s relatively SHORT time, before they return to the life of luxury. Ruling that they spend their short life as miserable cogs in a killing machine is unrealistic, foolish, and also incompatible with making any item, magic or non-magical. 5. There were optional rules, intended for use with ship-building, allowing a large project to be worked on by multiple people. This in effect tremdously cuts down the time limit, if you house rule that those rules can be used for other crafting. Note, this is in ADDITION to the normal "Aid Another" rules. 6. There is the spell Fabricate, that lets a crafting person reduce time to one round. Note, Fabricate does not in any way reduce the amount of gold, or the craft ranks that you need to make the item. A generous DM can allow for Wizard to create a magic item that lets people cast Fabricate. For example, an Anvil of Fabricate. I would allow a 30% price reduction if it were restricted to just a single craft skill. If it allows two craft skills, maybe a 10% price reduction.
Nephlite 03-13-07, 10:42 AM	I was just trying to make a character that utilized the Craft Skill when I started thinking a bit, the poor smiths don't get much free time do they? Not sure if I understood this right, but here goes: The Craft DC for a Full Plate is equal to 18 (10+AC bonus), and the price is 1500 gp. Lets make an npc to make this full plate for us. Human Expert 3 Since he always knew he was going to be smith he has tried to take feats and skill to utilize this. He has 15 Intelligence so that gives him a +2 bonus, he manages to get +5 from feats, and has maxed the skill at +6. He also has masterworked tools that gives him a +2 to the skill. Now, that gives him a total of +15 in the skill to begin with. With Take 10 that isn't enough to increase the DC by a multiple of 10, so he is stuck with doing the DC at 18. 1825=450 sp/week or cp/day. Since this poor fellow lives in the world of Eberron where the week doesn't have 10 days, he have to calculate by day. The price he's calculating against is 150000 = 333,33 days. In Eberron 1 year is 336 days. This means he spends almost the entire* year making one single full plate - and he doesn't really have time for anything else during that time either. Boy is he glad he didn't try to make an adamantine version of the plate, as he would've been stuck for 3666,67 days... (which is 10,9 years in Eberron). If he had started that project right after he gradutated from the complex Expert Class at 22 years of age (15+2d6), he would've had 2 years to enjoy the spoils of his craft before becoming middle aged. or he could've made 2 more plates before he retired. 165000 silver pieces he sold the thing for, minus the 55000 he spent to make the item, a net profit of 110000 sp. (If hired by a PC he would earn 14668 sp (13%) in the same amount of time by doing nothing! Or doing dedicated work he could earn about 6540 gp in that period (so it ain't THAT of a high pay for the amount of time spent).) Its neigh impossible for a PC to make useful high-end items because of how the time/cost system is laid out.. which was probably -some- of the intent, but come on.. even a dedicated smith wouldn't spend 10 years making one single item. And since there are only so many smiths out there, if they were to make all the full-plates and other heavy and expensive stuff that were needed for adventurers and villains, there wouldn't be any other items to get. And obviously this isn't the case, so there must be some flaw in the system. Any ideas on how I should handle this as player and/or DM? Or should I just accept the fact and tell my dwarven character that wished for an adamantine battle plate that he actually have to add 8+ years to his backstory just to be able to finish his armour in time? :) - Cru True, but how did the Dwarf afford it? If he is high level (level 10?) than he could have lots of magic/items that increase skill checks. There are numerous ones if you have the cash. NPCs don't usually have as much cash so less magic items/spell.
GorTeX 03-13-07, 05:57 PM	Since this poor fellow lives in the world of Eberron where the week doesn't have 10 days, he have to calculate by day. Maybe I'm wrong, but D&D has 7 (or 8) day weeks..it is Forgotten realms with the 10 day weeks..so you can calculate by the week. If you think that year is long for full plate, try calculating out Admanatine Battle plate... (took me 2 years 10 months using a forge that gave +20 to my rolls AND allowed me to work without stopping, so I finished it in 1/3rd the time)...while the rest of the part spent their spare time fighting in an Arena..
Tukka 03-13-07, 09:56 PM	Does this blacksmith have an apprentice? Anybody to collaborate with? I could imagine that on large projects like a suit of full plate, to some extent it might be crafted piecemeal.
Part-Human2 03-14-07, 01:24 AM	Under Combining Skill Attempts, Aid Another allows somebody to roll a Skill check vs DC 10 to add +2 to another character using that same skill. It doesn't specify the limit of helpers and it's an unnamed bonus.
Part-Human2 03-14-07, 01:27 AM	Skill Focus (Craft (Armorer)) anyone? Dwarves get a "+2 racial bonus on Craft checks that are related to stone or metal."
ravenshrike 03-14-07, 01:30 AM	The time for non-magic item creation is, to put it mildly, absurd beyond a certain point.
FrostHammer 03-14-07, 02:06 AM	I put the max time to craft any one item at 60 days. It gets ridiculous if you don't cap it.
Cruhand 03-14-07, 08:51 AM	Tarkin: 1. I mentioned this in my post as well, but it doesn't help to increase the DC by 10 if your skill isn't high enough to do it. My fairly average NPC-expert has only a skill of 15, so that isn't enough to increase the DC by 10. Of course, he could have an apprentice helping him out to give him aid another bonus (he would need two apprentices for this plate) 2. The times are realistic up to a certain degree, but it is for the high-end price items that the time really become screwed up. Some of the price is for balancing and availabiliy as well, and not necessarily a good measurement of how much time went into the making of the item - this is especially true for special material items. 3. If crafting wasn't meant to be a viable option it wouldn't even be a skill. Plus, even though it is a system designed mainly for combat, that doesn't mean your roleplaying experience can't contain other sides than the actual combat. 4. Agreed. But what about the poor npc smiths that is trying to make adamantine armours? 5. Do you have a reference to these optional rules? Stormwrack? 6. Most smiths doesn't have magic as an option. -- Nephilite: That was indeed the point, the poor npc didn't have the same options to increase his craft skill the same way the dwarven PC did. Further, some characters (such as the dwarf in question) may frown upon magic, and thus want to create a sturdy non-magical armour instead. Crafting costs one third of the initial price, so if you craft an item yourself instead of buying it, you can probably get more out of it than through buying expensive magic items. Time however, is the main problem here. -- Gortex: That was actually what I was making for this dwarf, and yes it took a long time, but fortunately we started at higher levels so I could put it into the backstory and just make my dwarf a few years older. Not sure about the Greyhawk D&D week, but I believe it is a ten day week. However, even if calculated by week on a 7 day week it is still quite a lot of time in the process. -- Tukka: Very viable solution for the npc smiths actually, create one part each and then put it all together. Now to make some rules for that so that PC's can copy such a feat... -- Part Human2: Aid Another can only help so much, and some smiths might not have apprentices. (Though most npc smiths that undertakes the making of a full plate probably do). The skill focus feat is already calculated in my example. And yes, dwarves have a nice bonus to craft - which again lead me to the decision to make my dwarf able to do some smithing (that was before I realised the enormous time consumption for working with the dwarven favoured metal: Adamantine...) -- Ravenshrike and Frosthammer: It is indeed rediculous, which was why I opened this thread. I don't know if capping at 60 days is enough for the highest end items (creating a full plate of armour even today may take up to 5 months of time). Maybe there should be a cap that decreases by the number of people working on the same task or something. -- Thanks for all the feedback everyone. If anyone can think of a place where there are rulings for ways to "split up an armour and make the pieces separately" then please let me know. Could perhaps use some variant of the "Complex Skill Checks" variant rule in Unearthed Arcana? Even though I already made my dwarf, its still an interesting topic for me as I do a lot of DM'ing as well, and it might be interesting to have some sort of system worked out for future references. - Cru
chucky 03-14-07, 08:51 AM	Dwarven shaper psion with the metalurgy feat and a artisen psi crystal. Adding 1 lvl of priest with artificer domain is nice also :) Without the fabricate spell/power it does take YEARS to make the expensive weapons and armour. There are magic forges in the children of stone book that do help alot with the time needed. One allows you to go without food/water/sleep as long as your making something with it. Essentially doubling or tripling your output.
Vintar 03-14-07, 10:20 AM	One thing I would say is that craft (armorer) would synergize with craft (blacksmithing) and craft (weaponsmithing), though that doesn't help all that much.
Moccanime 03-14-07, 03:16 PM	A full plate is really not something that a low level craftsman would make. The full plate is the ferrari of its time. Also you say this is in Eberron, any craftsman worth his salt can cast magecraft somehow (either with a level of magewright or an item). So let us say a level 5 character. Skill: +8 Int 14: +2 Feats: +5 Masterwork tools: +2 Magecraft: +5 And if GM allows it a synergy bonus from proffesion (smith): +2 Total check bonus: 24 craft Full plate: DC 18, voluntarily add 10 to dc. Average progress per week 952 sp. So in just under 16 weeks he can complete the armor (15 if he is a dwarf). Now let us add two assistants, both provide a +2 bonus (aid another) so new total check bonus is 28. The smith can now safely pump up the craft DC with another 10, for a weekly progess of 1444 sp, now the production time is down to 11 days. BTW, since it is a full plate, we migth as well make it masterword. In both examples that would add about one week to crafting time. Edit: Also a Smith like him would defenily not be poor. In ten weeks he would be able to craft 8 chainmails. He pays a third of the price for raw materials and the sell the suit for full price to stupid adventures. Net profit 800 gp every ten weeks. Not bad for a level 5 npc. Edit 2: In Eberron there is 48 week per year. Working every day of every week that would allow the smith to produce 42 chainmails per year. Net profit 4200. If he put 2000 a side every year, he would, after 5 years, be able to buy a Forge of Amorsmith (10000 gp). It gives a +20 bonus on his check. Now he would be able to produce 102 chainmails per year, net profit: 10200 gp. Even this master smith would have trouble making a Adamantine full plate however. It would take him 49 weeks of constant work. If he saved enough money up, which is quite possible with his output, he would maybe be able to get a combined Forge of Amorsmith and Forge of Sustenance. But even then it would take him 17 weeks to make the damn thing. 17 weeks behind the forge working nonstop would drive anyone mad I think.
El_Machinae 03-14-07, 08:23 PM	A note about the apprentices: with the scaling system, they're very easy to afford Inigo Montoya's (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inigo_Montoya)father spent a year making the fancy sword.
Ogg 03-15-07, 11:24 AM	The Unearthed Arcana has variant rules with Craft Points (It's SRD material too). It lets you assume characters are spending their "Off time" working on items so they can make them relatively quickly.
Vintar 03-15-07, 07:57 PM	That doesn't really help NPCs though - does it?
Seghan 03-15-07, 08:32 PM	I've always felt that D&D was a bit broken at the lowest (sub-PC) levels.