pounce from 3.0 to 3.5 and dire charge [Archive] - Wizards Community

pounce from 3.0 to 3.5 and dire charge [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Divisionbyzer0
04-30-08, 02:43 AM I was looking at the arms and equipment guide and under Claw's of The Leopard we read:
Arms & Equipment Guide pg 104: During the first round of combat, the wielder can leap on a foe, allowing her to take her full attack even if she has already made her move action. This ability functions exactly like the leopard's pounce ability.

This doesn't specifically mention charging. Was charging explicitly involved in the 3.0 version of pounce? Does "functions exactly like" mean these claws do in fact grant pounce when wielding them. Was pounce revised from 3.0 to 3.5 from "during the first round of combat" to "whenever you make a charge"?

The Epic level feat Dire Charge looks a lot like the ability granted by the Leopard's Claws:
Epic Level Handbook pg 53: Benefit: If you charge a foe during the first round of combat (or the surprise round, if you are allowed to act in it), you can make a full attack against the opponent you charge.

Is Dire Charge how the pounce ability was worded in 3.0?

If not, how was it worded?

Do you think it would be acceptable in a 3.5 game to make "dire charge" essentially be "pounce"?
Kouk
04-30-08, 03:58 AM I am not an expert on 3.0 intricacies to that extent I'm afraid, but the way Pounce works now is when you Charge (any time) you can make a Full Attack action.

Pounce
When a creature with this special attack makes a charge, it can follow with a full attack—including rake attacks if the creature also has the rake ability.

By the way, the Claws of the Leopard have been reprinted in Complete Adventurer. It grants Pounce now, as long as you are attacking with the gloves.
Eerongal
04-30-08, 09:16 AM in 3.0, pounce only worked the first round of combat. This was changed in 3.5 so that it works all the time.

If the item says it functions like a leapord's pounce, then that's what it functions as. It works just like a leopard's pounce, which is when you charge, you get a full attack.
Divisionbyzer0
04-30-08, 09:19 AM Gotcha. The main issue is dire charge: it then reads like 3.0 pounce doesn't it? Or did 3.0 pounce not involve a charge. The issue: is dire charge the same thing as what pounce was in 3.0? If so then presumably it should convert to 3.5 pounce?

If it doesn't then the folk at WotC really screwed up somewhere along the line when they decided to make fast movement swappable with pounce, yet there's a feat which you can only access at 21+ level yet it is substantially weaker than pounce.

Has anyone house ruled that "dire charge = pounce" in 3.5 since it's text is apparently really close to what 3.0 pounce was?
Eerongal
04-30-08, 09:26 AM Gotcha. The main issue is dire charge: it then reads like 3.0 pounce doesn't it? Or did 3.0 pounce not involve a charge. The issue: is dire charge the same thing as what pounce was in 3.0? If so then presumably it should convert to 3.5 pounce?

If it doesn't then the folk at WotC really screwed up somewhere along the line when they decided to make fast movement swappable with pounce, yet there's a feat which you can only access at 21+ level yet it is substantially weaker than pounce.

dire charge does function in every capacity like 3.0 pounce. the epic level handbook was never updated to 3.5, as such, everything in it is fair game still. As far as if this should function like pounce, because it doesn't say it's pounce, but is it's own ability, it would probably function as it says. However, i see it as being reasonable that since pounce changed, this feat should change as well. As an epic level feat, as it is, it wouldn't be that good. Heck, even if it just gives you pounce, it wouldnt be that good. You could take 1 level in lion's totem barbarian to get pounce.

I would say that making it work like normal pounce is preferable, but it still leaves it a weak "epic" feat.
Kouk
04-30-08, 11:32 AM If it doesn't then the folk at WotC really screwed up somewhere along the line when they decided to make fast movement swappable with pounce, yet there's a feat which you can only access at 21+ level yet it is substantially weaker than pounce.

If you mean the alternate ability where you swap a barbarian's speed to get Pounce, then yeah that one is an overpowered option, especially for a single level. They got goofy toward the end of 3.5.

EDIT: Well, not overpowered compared to spellcasters, but compared to any other "normal" melee options available.
TheCobra
04-30-08, 01:49 PM Wizards did release a 3.5 update for the ELH. If they had wanted to change Dire Charge, they probably would have.
Lecen_of_Mitran
04-30-08, 02:00 PM Wizards did release a 3.5 update for the ELH. If they had wanted to change Dire Charge, they probably would have.

They made that in the beggining of 3.5, when people fought that the Fighter was a cool class and Druid was balanced.

I never understood why "pounce" ins´t part of any character. Something like: "If you have a BAB +6/+1, when you move, you can make both attacks".

The Barbarian has pounce and the only thing he looses are 10' movement.
Divisionbyzer0
04-30-08, 02:01 PM You could take 1 level in lion's totem barbarian to get pounce.

I would say that making it work like normal pounce is preferable, but it still leaves it a weak "epic" feat.
I hear ya, but I really like the barbarian fast movement. I'm making a 21st level character and I don't blowing a feat for pounce.
Divisionbyzer0
04-30-08, 02:02 PM Wizards did release a 3.5 update for the ELH. If they had wanted to change Dire Charge, they probably would have.

Ah. Got a Link for that?
TheCobra
04-30-08, 02:10 PM This (http://64.223.12.31/default.asp?x=dnd/dnd/20030718a) might work.
Divisionbyzer0
05-01-08, 12:11 AM They made that in the beggining of 3.5, when people fought that the Fighter was a cool class and Druid was balanced.

I never understood why "pounce" ins´t part of any character. Something like: "If you have a BAB +6/+1, when you move, you can make both attacks".

The Barbarian has pounce and the only thing he looses are 10' movement.
It would just be a level 6 class ability then for those with warrior BAB: "When you charge you may make a full attack, instead of a single attack."

If it was a feat, prereq: BAB +6 " "

The +10 movement is really cool, but at higher levels it isn't as cool as pounce.

Yeah it looks like they left dire charge alone. That's a real waste of a feat as of now I suppose. Had they published CC before the revision it probably would have gotten changed. That's what, 3 or 4 years in between those two publications?

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Divisionbyzer0 04-30-08, 02:43 AM	I was looking at the arms and equipment guide and under Claw's of The Leopard we read: Arms & Equipment Guide pg 104: During the first round of combat, the wielder can leap on a foe, allowing her to take her full attack even if she has already made her move action. This ability functions exactly like the leopard's pounce ability. This doesn't specifically mention charging. Was charging explicitly involved in the 3.0 version of pounce? Does "functions exactly like" mean these claws do in fact grant pounce when wielding them. Was pounce revised from 3.0 to 3.5 from "during the first round of combat" to "whenever you make a charge"? The Epic level feat Dire Charge looks a lot like the ability granted by the Leopard's Claws: Epic Level Handbook pg 53: Benefit: If you charge a foe during the first round of combat (or the surprise round, if you are allowed to act in it), you can make a full attack against the opponent you charge. Is Dire Charge how the pounce ability was worded in 3.0? If not, how was it worded? Do you think it would be acceptable in a 3.5 game to make "dire charge" essentially be "pounce"?
Kouk 04-30-08, 03:58 AM	I am not an expert on 3.0 intricacies to that extent I'm afraid, but the way Pounce works now is when you Charge (any time) you can make a Full Attack action. Pounce When a creature with this special attack makes a charge, it can follow with a full attack—including rake attacks if the creature also has the rake ability. By the way, the Claws of the Leopard have been reprinted in Complete Adventurer. It grants Pounce now, as long as you are attacking with the gloves.
Eerongal 04-30-08, 09:16 AM	in 3.0, pounce only worked the first round of combat. This was changed in 3.5 so that it works all the time. If the item says it functions like a leapord's pounce, then that's what it functions as. It works just like a leopard's pounce, which is when you charge, you get a full attack.
Divisionbyzer0 04-30-08, 09:19 AM	Gotcha. The main issue is dire charge: it then reads like 3.0 pounce doesn't it? Or did 3.0 pounce not involve a charge. The issue: is dire charge the same thing as what pounce was in 3.0? If so then presumably it should convert to 3.5 pounce? If it doesn't then the folk at WotC really screwed up somewhere along the line when they decided to make fast movement swappable with pounce, yet there's a feat which you can only access at 21+ level yet it is substantially weaker than pounce. Has anyone house ruled that "dire charge = pounce" in 3.5 since it's text is apparently really close to what 3.0 pounce was?
Eerongal 04-30-08, 09:26 AM	Gotcha. The main issue is dire charge: it then reads like 3.0 pounce doesn't it? Or did 3.0 pounce not involve a charge. The issue: is dire charge the same thing as what pounce was in 3.0? If so then presumably it should convert to 3.5 pounce? If it doesn't then the folk at WotC really screwed up somewhere along the line when they decided to make fast movement swappable with pounce, yet there's a feat which you can only access at 21+ level yet it is substantially weaker than pounce. dire charge does function in every capacity like 3.0 pounce. the epic level handbook was never updated to 3.5, as such, everything in it is fair game still. As far as if this should function like pounce, because it doesn't say it's pounce, but is it's own ability, it would probably function as it says. However, i see it as being reasonable that since pounce changed, this feat should change as well. As an epic level feat, as it is, it wouldn't be that good. Heck, even if it just gives you pounce, it wouldnt be that good. You could take 1 level in lion's totem barbarian to get pounce. I would say that making it work like normal pounce is preferable, but it still leaves it a weak "epic" feat.
Kouk 04-30-08, 11:32 AM	If it doesn't then the folk at WotC really screwed up somewhere along the line when they decided to make fast movement swappable with pounce, yet there's a feat which you can only access at 21+ level yet it is substantially weaker than pounce. If you mean the alternate ability where you swap a barbarian's speed to get Pounce, then yeah that one is an overpowered option, especially for a single level. They got goofy toward the end of 3.5. EDIT: Well, not overpowered compared to spellcasters, but compared to any other "normal" melee options available.
TheCobra 04-30-08, 01:49 PM	Wizards did release a 3.5 update for the ELH. If they had wanted to change Dire Charge, they probably would have.
Lecen_of_Mitran 04-30-08, 02:00 PM	Wizards did release a 3.5 update for the ELH. If they had wanted to change Dire Charge, they probably would have. They made that in the beggining of 3.5, when people fought that the Fighter was a cool class and Druid was balanced. I never understood why "pounce" ins´t part of any character. Something like: "If you have a BAB +6/+1, when you move, you can make both attacks". The Barbarian has pounce and the only thing he looses are 10' movement.
Divisionbyzer0 04-30-08, 02:01 PM	You could take 1 level in lion's totem barbarian to get pounce. I would say that making it work like normal pounce is preferable, but it still leaves it a weak "epic" feat. I hear ya, but I really like the barbarian fast movement. I'm making a 21st level character and I don't blowing a feat for pounce.
Divisionbyzer0 04-30-08, 02:02 PM	Wizards did release a 3.5 update for the ELH. If they had wanted to change Dire Charge, they probably would have. Ah. Got a Link for that?
TheCobra 04-30-08, 02:10 PM	This (http://64.223.12.31/default.asp?x=dnd/dnd/20030718a) might work.
Divisionbyzer0 05-01-08, 12:11 AM	They made that in the beggining of 3.5, when people fought that the Fighter was a cool class and Druid was balanced. I never understood why "pounce" ins´t part of any character. Something like: "If you have a BAB +6/+1, when you move, you can make both attacks". The Barbarian has pounce and the only thing he looses are 10' movement. It would just be a level 6 class ability then for those with warrior BAB: "When you charge you may make a full attack, instead of a single attack." If it was a feat, prereq: BAB +6 " " The +10 movement is really cool, but at higher levels it isn't as cool as pounce. Yeah it looks like they left dire charge alone. That's a real waste of a feat as of now I suppose. Had they published CC before the revision it probably would have gotten changed. That's what, 3 or 4 years in between those two publications?