pouncing leap attack? [Archive] - Wizards Community

pouncing leap attack? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
T_Baggins
10-25-07, 10:36 AM There are a few ways to get a guy who can pounce. I've read leap attack several times, and I see it as having no conflict with pounce. This would allow you to get the big damage on all you hits. Is there anything official on this?
LSMFT
10-25-07, 11:12 AM I can't see any reason why this wouldn't work. Pounceing allows you to make multiple attacks at the end of a charge. Leap Attack lets you do extra damage on some types of charges. Unless there is a some specific exclusion to this combo, then rules-wise, it seems perfectly legal.

Now, I should say, I don't think it has the problems of uber damage or anything.

Most twf involves at least one light weapon, which doesnt qualify for power attack at all.

Even using feats or whatnot to twf with larger weapons, you are stacking penalties, which then rapidly diminishes your probability of doing any damage whatsoever.

I'm not a statistician or anything, but you'll probably do less damage in the long run with this technique than a leap-attacker with a two-handed weapon would.
T_Baggins
10-25-07, 02:02 PM I can't see any reason why this wouldn't work. Pounceing allows you to make multiple attacks at the end of a charge. Leap Attack lets you do extra damage on some types of charges. Unless there is a some specific exclusion to this combo, then rules-wise, it seems perfectly legal.

Now, I should say, I don't think it has the problems of uber damage or anything.

Most twf involves at least one light weapon, which doesnt qualify for power attack at all.

Even using feats or whatnot to twf with larger weapons, you are stacking penalties, which then rapidly diminishes your probability of doing any damage whatsoever.

I'm not a statistician or anything, but you'll probably do less damage in the long run with this technique than a leap-attacker with a two-handed weapon would.

Leap attack does with a 2 handed wpn does 6 damage for every one you trade. I have a 13th lvl warblade with the hammer of thunderbolts. I get 3 attacks when I use the pouncing charge maneuver. I can drop some of that hefty "to hit" bonus into damage. It rules. So much I feel a little guilty.
Tordak
10-25-07, 02:29 PM Leap attack rules. Combined with shock trooper it is devastating.

However the extra damages from leap attack rely on momentum. The rules says you guys are right, but I wouldn't be against a DM that house rule that the benefit of the momentum is gained on the first attack only and the remaining attacks only benefits from regular power attack. It depends, I suppose, of the way you see the leaping pounce : do you make all your attacks while landing on the guy or do you leap, attack, land and then do the remaining attacks?

But again, there's nothing in the rule (as far as I know) that say those 2 don't combine. :D
LSMFT
10-25-07, 02:45 PM Power Attack, in and of itself, adds "twice the number subtracted from your attack rolls" when you use a two-handed weapon. With leap attack "you instead triple the extra damage from Power Attack."

This could be read as 3x the x2 for x6, as you indicated, but I don't think that's right. I think it is x3 instead of the normal x2. I searched the FAQ and Sage Advice. I didn't see this issue addressed. Still, I don’t think your result follows the normal rules for doubling.

Next, Power Attack really only works well when the opponent has a ridiculously Low AC, such that you'd auto hit anyway, or a really high AC, such that no matter what penalty you take it doesn't matter because you needed to roll a natural 20 anyway.

With the really, really low ACs, you still want to avoid putting too much into Power Attack, as you're usually better off landing your iterative attacks,

With the really, really high ACs, well, if you roll three consecutive natural 20's to hit, you deserve the additional damage cuz that would be frickin' awesome.
Nadaka
10-25-07, 03:27 PM Power Attack, in and of itself, adds "twice the number subtracted from your attack rolls" when you use a two-handed weapon. With leap attack "you instead triple the extra damage from Power Attack."

This could be read as 3x the x2 for x6, as you indicated, but I don't think that's right. I think it is x3 instead of the normal x2. I searched the FAQ and Sage Advice. I didn't see this issue addressed. Still, I don’t think your result follows the normal rules for doubling.

Next, Power Attack really only works well when the opponent has a ridiculously Low AC, such that you'd auto hit anyway, or a really high AC, such that no matter what penalty you take it doesn't matter because you needed to roll a natural 20 anyway.

With the really, really low ACs, you still want to avoid putting too much into Power Attack, as you're usually better off landing your iterative attacks,

With the really, really high ACs, well, if you roll three consecutive natural 20's to hit, you deserve the additional damage cuz that would be frickin' awesome.

Thats why you use shock trooper.
EvilVegan
10-25-07, 03:36 PM As mentioned before the true joy is with shock trooper.

Also Errata on leap attack is +100% power attack damage, so x2 becomes x4.

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/er/20040125a

If you're curious about frenzied berserker greater power attack, it also has been errata'd to +50% and +100%, so they're like this:

x2 +100% +50% = x5
x2 +100% +100% = x6
teamfireyleader
12-03-07, 08:13 AM May i ask a really stupid question? What does shock trooper do, and what do you have to do to activate leap attack?:confused:
LSMFT
12-03-07, 10:22 AM May i ask a really stupid question? What does shock trooper do, and what do you have to do to activate leap attack?:confused:
Shock Trooper, form CW, lets you trade the penalty to hit to a penalty to AC on a charge.

Leap Attack is a charge but you jump during it.
T_Baggins
12-03-07, 10:31 AM So I guess the moral of this story is pounce+leap attack+shock trooper=ticked off look on your DM's face. This is good stuff. Char-ops worthy I think. Its kind of a high level build because you don't get 3 attacks with a 2 handed weapon until 11th level, but you should be really good. Look up the spells you are competing against at these levels.
FrostHammer
12-03-07, 10:32 AM Shock Trooper is what makes many non-mounted Charging builds viable.
Scion of Coldshard
12-03-07, 01:41 PM Technically for most instances of pounce the full attack comes 'after' the charge.

Pounce
When a creature with this special attack makes a charge, it can follow with a full attack—including rake attacks if the creature also has the rake ability.

Assuming that leap attack only works on a charge (I havent used the feat and forget the wording) then the charge attack will get the bonus but the full attack following the charge will not.
Daeva
12-03-07, 04:41 PM spiked chain on a barbarian (the totem that gets pounce) ranger/scout quick skirmisher build.

insanely retarted borderline WTF charges.
CryoSilver
12-03-07, 04:53 PM Technically for most instances of pounce the full attack comes 'after' the charge.

Assuming that leap attack only works on a charge (I havent used the feat and forget the wording) then the charge attack will get the bonus but the full attack following the charge will not.

AH, but for the Tome of Battle maneuver Pouncing Charge, it says "instead of a single attack," meaning that the bonus from Leap Attack applies to every attack.

My group ruled thus on LA: With a 1 handed weapon, you deal extra damage at a 2 to 1 ratio. With a 2 handed weapon, 3 to 1. It seemed the most internally consistent way to do it, base don the way D&D multipliers usually work.
Ander Spectacular
12-05-07, 11:08 AM My group ruled thus on LA: With a 1 handed weapon, you deal extra damage at a 2 to 1 ratio. With a 2 handed weapon, 3 to 1. It seemed the most internally consistent way to do it, base don the way D&D multipliers usually work.

That is exactly how I think it is supposed to be as well. Also, using Lion Totem barbarian with the whirling frenzy variant, and snap kick, at 6h level you would be getting 4 attacks on a pounce.

If your DM is really lenient, use BattleJump from Unapproachable East in combination with Sudden Leap for pouncing as a swift action. Ta-Da, easy multipounce. Of course, If I was a DM I wouldn't allow Battle Jump, but thats me.

-AS-
FrostHammer
12-07-07, 12:02 AM What exactly does Battle Jump do?
Ander Spectacular
12-07-07, 12:33 PM What exactly does Battle Jump do?

If you jump down onto an opponent from some height(5', 7' something like that), it counts as a charge. Sudden Leap allows you to jump as a swift action, lovely fun swift action pouncing charge.
-AS-

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
T_Baggins 10-25-07, 10:36 AM	There are a few ways to get a guy who can pounce. I've read leap attack several times, and I see it as having no conflict with pounce. This would allow you to get the big damage on all you hits. Is there anything official on this?
LSMFT 10-25-07, 11:12 AM	I can't see any reason why this wouldn't work. Pounceing allows you to make multiple attacks at the end of a charge. Leap Attack lets you do extra damage on some types of charges. Unless there is a some specific exclusion to this combo, then rules-wise, it seems perfectly legal. Now, I should say, I don't think it has the problems of uber damage or anything. Most twf involves at least one light weapon, which doesnt qualify for power attack at all. Even using feats or whatnot to twf with larger weapons, you are stacking penalties, which then rapidly diminishes your probability of doing any damage whatsoever. I'm not a statistician or anything, but you'll probably do less damage in the long run with this technique than a leap-attacker with a two-handed weapon would.
T_Baggins 10-25-07, 02:02 PM	I can't see any reason why this wouldn't work. Pounceing allows you to make multiple attacks at the end of a charge. Leap Attack lets you do extra damage on some types of charges. Unless there is a some specific exclusion to this combo, then rules-wise, it seems perfectly legal. Now, I should say, I don't think it has the problems of uber damage or anything. Most twf involves at least one light weapon, which doesnt qualify for power attack at all. Even using feats or whatnot to twf with larger weapons, you are stacking penalties, which then rapidly diminishes your probability of doing any damage whatsoever. I'm not a statistician or anything, but you'll probably do less damage in the long run with this technique than a leap-attacker with a two-handed weapon would. Leap attack does with a 2 handed wpn does 6 damage for every one you trade. I have a 13th lvl warblade with the hammer of thunderbolts. I get 3 attacks when I use the pouncing charge maneuver. I can drop some of that hefty "to hit" bonus into damage. It rules. So much I feel a little guilty.
Tordak 10-25-07, 02:29 PM	Leap attack rules. Combined with shock trooper it is devastating. However the extra damages from leap attack rely on momentum. The rules says you guys are right, but I wouldn't be against a DM that house rule that the benefit of the momentum is gained on the first attack only and the remaining attacks only benefits from regular power attack. It depends, I suppose, of the way you see the leaping pounce : do you make all your attacks while landing on the guy or do you leap, attack, land and then do the remaining attacks? But again, there's nothing in the rule (as far as I know) that say those 2 don't combine. :D
LSMFT 10-25-07, 02:45 PM	Power Attack, in and of itself, adds "twice the number subtracted from your attack rolls" when you use a two-handed weapon. With leap attack "you instead triple the extra damage from Power Attack." This could be read as 3x the x2 for x6, as you indicated, but I don't think that's right. I think it is x3 instead of the normal x2. I searched the FAQ and Sage Advice. I didn't see this issue addressed. Still, I don’t think your result follows the normal rules for doubling. Next, Power Attack really only works well when the opponent has a ridiculously Low AC, such that you'd auto hit anyway, or a really high AC, such that no matter what penalty you take it doesn't matter because you needed to roll a natural 20 anyway. With the really, really low ACs, you still want to avoid putting too much into Power Attack, as you're usually better off landing your iterative attacks, With the really, really high ACs, well, if you roll three consecutive natural 20's to hit, you deserve the additional damage cuz that would be frickin' awesome.
Nadaka 10-25-07, 03:27 PM	Power Attack, in and of itself, adds "twice the number subtracted from your attack rolls" when you use a two-handed weapon. With leap attack "you instead triple the extra damage from Power Attack." This could be read as 3x the x2 for x6, as you indicated, but I don't think that's right. I think it is x3 instead of the normal x2. I searched the FAQ and Sage Advice. I didn't see this issue addressed. Still, I don’t think your result follows the normal rules for doubling. Next, Power Attack really only works well when the opponent has a ridiculously Low AC, such that you'd auto hit anyway, or a really high AC, such that no matter what penalty you take it doesn't matter because you needed to roll a natural 20 anyway. With the really, really low ACs, you still want to avoid putting too much into Power Attack, as you're usually better off landing your iterative attacks, With the really, really high ACs, well, if you roll three consecutive natural 20's to hit, you deserve the additional damage cuz that would be frickin' awesome. Thats why you use shock trooper.
EvilVegan 10-25-07, 03:36 PM	As mentioned before the true joy is with shock trooper. Also Errata on leap attack is +100% power attack damage, so x2 becomes x4. http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/er/20040125a If you're curious about frenzied berserker greater power attack, it also has been errata'd to +50% and +100%, so they're like this: x2 +100% +50% = x5 x2 +100% +100% = x6
teamfireyleader 12-03-07, 08:13 AM	May i ask a really stupid question? What does shock trooper do, and what do you have to do to activate leap attack?:confused:
LSMFT 12-03-07, 10:22 AM	May i ask a really stupid question? What does shock trooper do, and what do you have to do to activate leap attack?:confused: Shock Trooper, form CW, lets you trade the penalty to hit to a penalty to AC on a charge. Leap Attack is a charge but you jump during it.
T_Baggins 12-03-07, 10:31 AM	So I guess the moral of this story is pounce+leap attack+shock trooper=ticked off look on your DM's face. This is good stuff. Char-ops worthy I think. Its kind of a high level build because you don't get 3 attacks with a 2 handed weapon until 11th level, but you should be really good. Look up the spells you are competing against at these levels.
FrostHammer 12-03-07, 10:32 AM	Shock Trooper is what makes many non-mounted Charging builds viable.
Scion of Coldshard 12-03-07, 01:41 PM	Technically for most instances of pounce the full attack comes 'after' the charge. Pounce When a creature with this special attack makes a charge, it can follow with a full attack—including rake attacks if the creature also has the rake ability. Assuming that leap attack only works on a charge (I havent used the feat and forget the wording) then the charge attack will get the bonus but the full attack following the charge will not.
Daeva 12-03-07, 04:41 PM	spiked chain on a barbarian (the totem that gets pounce) ranger/scout quick skirmisher build. insanely retarted borderline WTF charges.
CryoSilver 12-03-07, 04:53 PM	Technically for most instances of pounce the full attack comes 'after' the charge. Assuming that leap attack only works on a charge (I havent used the feat and forget the wording) then the charge attack will get the bonus but the full attack following the charge will not. AH, but for the Tome of Battle maneuver Pouncing Charge, it says "instead of a single attack," meaning that the bonus from Leap Attack applies to every attack. My group ruled thus on LA: With a 1 handed weapon, you deal extra damage at a 2 to 1 ratio. With a 2 handed weapon, 3 to 1. It seemed the most internally consistent way to do it, base don the way D&D multipliers usually work.
Ander Spectacular 12-05-07, 11:08 AM	My group ruled thus on LA: With a 1 handed weapon, you deal extra damage at a 2 to 1 ratio. With a 2 handed weapon, 3 to 1. It seemed the most internally consistent way to do it, base don the way D&D multipliers usually work. That is exactly how I think it is supposed to be as well. Also, using Lion Totem barbarian with the whirling frenzy variant, and snap kick, at 6h level you would be getting 4 attacks on a pounce. If your DM is really lenient, use BattleJump from Unapproachable East in combination with Sudden Leap for pouncing as a swift action. Ta-Da, easy multipounce. Of course, If I was a DM I wouldn't allow Battle Jump, but thats me. -AS-
FrostHammer 12-07-07, 12:02 AM	What exactly does Battle Jump do?
Ander Spectacular 12-07-07, 12:33 PM	What exactly does Battle Jump do? If you jump down onto an opponent from some height(5', 7' something like that), it counts as a charge. Sudden Leap allows you to jump as a swift action, lovely fun swift action pouncing charge. -AS-