Power attack and Combat Expertise clarification [Archive] - Wizards Community

Power attack and Combat Expertise clarification [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
siswick
07-10-07, 12:48 PM Just wanted to make sure I have this correct
Scenario:
+5 BAB

I can use PA for -5 to add 10 daamge(2h) and I can use that same -5 to add +5 AC via combat expertise. This is the way I understand how it works from the faq. If my total to hit was say +10 to start, would it be +5 to hit or do I take the penalty twice for +0 to hit?

Example:
+10 to hit

PA and CE for -5:
+5 to hit(or is it +0 to hit)
+10 damage(2h)
+5 AC

Also can CE be combined with shock trooper for the same sharing of the bab penalty?

Example:
AC 20
+10 to hit

PA/CE for -5(with shock trooper):
+10 to hit(or +5 to hit)
+10 damage(2h)

I couldn't find anything specifically in the search, but if someone has a link that would be great.

Thanks
Tempest Stormwind
07-10-07, 12:50 PM I fail to see why you think that 5 (5th level warrior base attack) -5 (power attack) -5 (combat expertise) = 0 instead of -5.

Each penalty is discrete. There's nothing about overlapping.
tafkamhokie
07-10-07, 12:55 PM I am pretty sure the OP has a +5 BAB, and 5 other plusses from various sources, so his net attack bonus is +10.

While it is easy to think of power attack and combat expertise as "moving" bonuses from your BAB into your damage or AC, that is not how it works. You simply take a penalty, up to your BAB total, and add it to something else.

So you can take -5 to hit/+5 to damage and -5 to hit/+5 to AC in the same round, for a total of -10 to hit/+5 to damage/+5 to AC.

Or +10 to damage with a 2H weapon. Or +15 or more with leap attack or combat brute or frenzied berzerker, or....well, you get the idea.
siswick
07-10-07, 12:56 PM I figured as much, just wanted to make sure

Thanks
yeti1069
07-10-07, 05:55 PM This, while somewhat different from the OP's question, seems appropriate here.

If I have 2 attacks ( BAB +8/+3), when I am power attacking for full, is it a -8 penalty, +8 damage on both attacks, or a -8/+8 for the first attack, and -3/+3 on the second?
NoldorForce
07-10-07, 06:02 PM Power Attack is expressly altered on a per-turn basis.

That means that you choose one penalty and stick with it until your next turn. (This allows White Raven Tactics to alter you penalty within a given round.) So if you Power Attacked for full with a BAB of +8, your attacks would have base modifiers of +0/-5. "Power Attacking for full" refers to using your entire BAB as the penalty for the turn, not to using each distinct base modifier as the penalty for that attack.
Nom
07-10-07, 06:35 PM Note that CE is limited to a penalty of up to (down to?) -5. It is in no way dependent on your BAB.

And, as has been stated, if you did both at -5 then you'd have two -5 (unnamed) penalties, and they'd stack.
theotherdraxen
07-10-07, 06:38 PM Note that CE is limited to a penalty of up to (down to?) -5. It is in no way dependent on your BAB.

And, as has been stated, if you did both at -5 then you'd have two -5 (unnamed) penalties, and they'd stack.

The feat description says otherwise. It's up to -5 or your BAB, whichever is lower. A 3rd level fighter with combat expertise can only take up to a -3 penalty to attacks. A 6th level fighter with combat expertise can only take up to a -5 unless he takes Improved Combat Expertise.
Bihlbo
07-10-07, 07:06 PM My inclination is to look to the rules on how bonuses stack. Untyped bonuses always stack with everything. The penalties for PA and CE are not typed, and therefore stack with one another and every other penalty that one might have.
Jeriaus
07-10-07, 08:20 PM IF your BAB is +5 you can take -5 fpr both CE and PA, but youd be at -5.
Nom
07-10-07, 09:01 PM The feat description says otherwise. It's up to -5 or your BAB, whichever is lower. A 3rd level fighter with combat expertise can only take up to a -3 penalty to attacks. A 6th level fighter with combat expertise can only take up to a -5 unless he takes Improved Combat Expertise.My mistake. I just read the first sentence and missed the limitation in the second.
StevenO
07-10-07, 09:58 PM The extreme example of a character with Power Attack and Superior (or is it just Improved) Combat Expertise (which removes the cap) and a BAB +20.

Normal full attack +20/+15/+10/+5
Full Attack maxxing out either +0/-5/-10/-15 but gain either +20 AC or +20/40 damage.
Full Attack max out both -20/-25/-30/-35 with +20 AC AND +20/40 damage

How can you possibly hit? Remember that a natural 20 always hits although confirming that critical threat is unlikely.
NoldorForce
07-11-07, 01:53 AM The extreme example of a character with Power Attack and Superior (or is it just Improved) Combat Expertise (which removes the cap) and a BAB +20.

Normal full attack +20/+15/+10/+5
Full Attack maxxing out either +0/-5/-10/-15 but gain either +20 AC or +20/40 damage.
Full Attack max out both -20/-25/-30/-35 with +20 AC AND +20/40 damage

How can you possibly hit? Remember that a natural 20 always hits although confirming that critical threat is unlikely.-Some racial, tactical feat available to kalashtar allows you to ignore the penalty for Combat Expertise if you keep it up long enough.
-Warchanter's Inspire Recklessness can effectively reroute the Power Attack penalty to your AC.

Come to think of it...that's part of the workings of lossless Power Attacking.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
siswick 07-10-07, 12:48 PM	Just wanted to make sure I have this correct Scenario: +5 BAB I can use PA for -5 to add 10 daamge(2h) and I can use that same -5 to add +5 AC via combat expertise. This is the way I understand how it works from the faq. If my total to hit was say +10 to start, would it be +5 to hit or do I take the penalty twice for +0 to hit? Example: +10 to hit PA and CE for -5: +5 to hit(or is it +0 to hit) +10 damage(2h) +5 AC Also can CE be combined with shock trooper for the same sharing of the bab penalty? Example: AC 20 +10 to hit PA/CE for -5(with shock trooper): +10 to hit(or +5 to hit) +10 damage(2h) I couldn't find anything specifically in the search, but if someone has a link that would be great. Thanks
Tempest Stormwind 07-10-07, 12:50 PM	I fail to see why you think that 5 (5th level warrior base attack) -5 (power attack) -5 (combat expertise) = 0 instead of -5. Each penalty is discrete. There's nothing about overlapping.
tafkamhokie 07-10-07, 12:55 PM	I am pretty sure the OP has a +5 BAB, and 5 other plusses from various sources, so his net attack bonus is +10. While it is easy to think of power attack and combat expertise as "moving" bonuses from your BAB into your damage or AC, that is not how it works. You simply take a penalty, up to your BAB total, and add it to something else. So you can take -5 to hit/+5 to damage and -5 to hit/+5 to AC in the same round, for a total of -10 to hit/+5 to damage/+5 to AC. Or +10 to damage with a 2H weapon. Or +15 or more with leap attack or combat brute or frenzied berzerker, or....well, you get the idea.
siswick 07-10-07, 12:56 PM	I figured as much, just wanted to make sure Thanks
yeti1069 07-10-07, 05:55 PM	This, while somewhat different from the OP's question, seems appropriate here. If I have 2 attacks ( BAB +8/+3), when I am power attacking for full, is it a -8 penalty, +8 damage on both attacks, or a -8/+8 for the first attack, and -3/+3 on the second?
NoldorForce 07-10-07, 06:02 PM	Power Attack is expressly altered on a per-turn basis. That means that you choose one penalty and stick with it until your next turn. (This allows White Raven Tactics to alter you penalty within a given round.) So if you Power Attacked for full with a BAB of +8, your attacks would have base modifiers of +0/-5. "Power Attacking for full" refers to using your entire BAB as the penalty for the turn, not to using each distinct base modifier as the penalty for that attack.
Nom 07-10-07, 06:35 PM	Note that CE is limited to a penalty of up to (down to?) -5. It is in no way dependent on your BAB. And, as has been stated, if you did both at -5 then you'd have two -5 (unnamed) penalties, and they'd stack.
theotherdraxen 07-10-07, 06:38 PM	Note that CE is limited to a penalty of up to (down to?) -5. It is in no way dependent on your BAB. And, as has been stated, if you did both at -5 then you'd have two -5 (unnamed) penalties, and they'd stack. The feat description says otherwise. It's up to -5 or your BAB, whichever is lower. A 3rd level fighter with combat expertise can only take up to a -3 penalty to attacks. A 6th level fighter with combat expertise can only take up to a -5 unless he takes Improved Combat Expertise.
Bihlbo 07-10-07, 07:06 PM	My inclination is to look to the rules on how bonuses stack. Untyped bonuses always stack with everything. The penalties for PA and CE are not typed, and therefore stack with one another and every other penalty that one might have.
Jeriaus 07-10-07, 08:20 PM	IF your BAB is +5 you can take -5 fpr both CE and PA, but youd be at -5.
Nom 07-10-07, 09:01 PM	The feat description says otherwise. It's up to -5 or your BAB, whichever is lower. A 3rd level fighter with combat expertise can only take up to a -3 penalty to attacks. A 6th level fighter with combat expertise can only take up to a -5 unless he takes Improved Combat Expertise.My mistake. I just read the first sentence and missed the limitation in the second.
StevenO 07-10-07, 09:58 PM	The extreme example of a character with Power Attack and Superior (or is it just Improved) Combat Expertise (which removes the cap) and a BAB +20. Normal full attack +20/+15/+10/+5 Full Attack maxxing out either +0/-5/-10/-15 but gain either +20 AC or +20/40 damage. Full Attack max out both -20/-25/-30/-35 with +20 AC AND +20/40 damage How can you possibly hit? Remember that a natural 20 always hits although confirming that critical threat is unlikely.
NoldorForce 07-11-07, 01:53 AM	The extreme example of a character with Power Attack and Superior (or is it just Improved) Combat Expertise (which removes the cap) and a BAB +20. Normal full attack +20/+15/+10/+5 Full Attack maxxing out either +0/-5/-10/-15 but gain either +20 AC or +20/40 damage. Full Attack max out both -20/-25/-30/-35 with +20 AC AND +20/40 damage How can you possibly hit? Remember that a natural 20 always hits although confirming that critical threat is unlikely.-Some racial, tactical feat available to kalashtar allows you to ignore the penalty for Combat Expertise if you keep it up long enough. -Warchanter's Inspire Recklessness can effectively reroute the Power Attack penalty to your AC. Come to think of it...that's part of the workings of lossless Power Attacking.