Power Attack and Exotic Weapon Master Question [Archive] - Wizards Community

Power Attack and Exotic Weapon Master Question [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Gilfalas_Elaandrin
06-18-07, 04:48 PM In the Exotic Weapon Master out of the Complete book of Warriors there is a selection that allows you to use double your str bonus instead of 1/5 times when uzing an Exotic One handed weapon Two Handed. It further states"

"If they have power attack they treat the weapon as two handed for purposes of determining their bonus on damage rolls".

What EXACTLY does that second part mean? The first part is pretty clear but does that mean that they get 2 damage per -1 to hit when using the exotic weapon one handed? Because you ALREADY get that when using any one handed weapon in two hands don't you?

Also, aren't the Bastard Sword and Dwarven War Axe already BOTH one handed and two handed if you have the Exotic Weapon feats for them? Normally they are martial 2H weapons but they become Exotic one handers if you spend the feat to use them that way (assuming non dwarf).

I mean just because you learn how to use a Bastard sword in one hand shouldn't mean you forget how to learn to use it in two.
ShinAkuma2
06-18-07, 06:20 PM I take it that it gives two abilities:

If you use it two-handed, you get 2xStr instead of 1.5x.

If you use it one-handed, you can treat it as two-handed for Power Attack, meaning 2 damage per -1 to attack.

If it doesn't do the above, then that second sentence doesn't actually do anything...I always ere on the side of "abilities let you do things."
tarkin
06-18-07, 06:29 PM Does it work on Light weapons?

If it expressely allows Light weapons, than those sentences are pretty powerfull.
Gilfalas_Elaandrin
06-18-07, 06:47 PM It explicitly references exotic one handed weapons. Not light.

Although even allowing you to use, say a bastard sword, one handed and still get 2 damage per -1 to hit is still huge. I was not going to take a level of it since I did not want to lose a level of Spell Progression on my Cleric of Kelemvor but by gum I will if I get 2 for 1 on PA and still get to use my shield.
Kalarus
06-18-07, 08:51 PM Usually, what matters is not what type the weapon normally is but how you are wielding it that decides wether the weapon is twohanded or onehanded. The weapon categories described are for medium creatures, the categories shift when size changes, so no weapon is by defition a twohander. A twohanded weapon is one that you wield in two hands, either because you can't wield it in one hand or because you choose to do so because it's more effective.

This makes the second line in that trick description utterly redundant, because if the character is wielding an exotic weapon that he can use in one hand with two hands, he already gains the double power attack bonus. Either someone didn't do their homework while writing the book, or you get double power attack bonus when wielding the weapon in one hand.

Reading the trick description I'd think someone just didn't do their homework and the line is in fact redundant. The second sentence states "If he has the power attack feat", in which case, "he" refers to "the character wielding a one-handed exotic weapon in two hands" as specified by the first sentence. Had the intention been two seperate abilities it likely would've said "If a characer wielding a one-handed exotic weapon has the power attack feat" or some such.

I'd interpret it as a redundant sentence in the description.
ShinAkuma2
06-18-07, 11:35 PM The second sentence states "If he has the power attack feat", in which case, "he" refers to "the character wielding a one-handed exotic weapon in two hands" as specified by the first sentence. Had the intention been two seperate abilities it likely would've said "If a characer wielding a one-handed exotic weapon has the power attack feat" or some such.

I have to disagree. If that's what was intended, it more likely would have said, "If he has the power attack feat as well," which directly says, "If that guy previously referenced as using a one-handed weapon in two hands also has Power Attack..."

As it stands, it looks to me more like, "If you weild your one-handed weapon in two hands, you get this. If you weild it as normal and use Power Attack, you get this instead."
Gilfalas_Elaandrin
06-19-07, 12:21 PM Usually, what matters is not what type the weapon normally is but how you are wielding it that decides wether the weapon is twohanded or onehanded.

Much as I wish this was true it is not. The PHB, SRD & the power attack feat very clearly delineate the differences between Light, One Handed and 2 Handed weapons.

The fact that your using a weapon in two hands only matters for One Handed Weapons and 2 Handed Weapons. Light weapons gain 0 benefit from being used with 2 hands, either from bonus str damage or power attack (with that later not usable with a light weapon at all).
ravenshrike
06-19-07, 02:24 PM Does it work on Light weapons?

If it expressely allows Light weapons, than those sentences are pretty powerfull.

It wroks on anything classed as a rapier or above. Which opens both elven thinblade and lightblade.
Gilfalas_Elaandrin
06-19-07, 04:30 PM It works on anything classed as a rapier or above. Which opens both elven thinblade and lightblade.

Wrong. While it WILL work with the Thinblade (since the Thinblade is an Exotic one handed weapon) it quite expressly does NOT work with the Lightblade since that is a Exotic light weapon and the ability explicitly says ONE HANDED Exotic weapons.

Again this ability clearly says it is used with Exotic One Handed Weapons. NOT Exotic Light or 2 Handed weapons.

While light weapons are used in one hand they are not 'one handed class' weapons.
Kalarus
06-19-07, 07:22 PM Much as I wish this was true it is not. The PHB, SRD & the power attack feat very clearly delineate the differences between Light, One Handed and 2 Handed weapons.

The fact that your using a weapon in two hands only matters for One Handed Weapons and 2 Handed Weapons. Light weapons gain 0 benefit from being used with 2 hands, either from bonus str damage or power attack (with that later not usable with a light weapon at all).

Which is why I said that it decides wether a weapon is onehanded or twohanded, not wether a weapon is light or not ;). You are right though, light weapons are a different category altogether, and there are some exceptions to the rule for onehanders, hence the word "usually". Usually, you can wield any onehanded weapon in two hands. Some onehanders, like the rapier, are explicitly described as unusable in such a fashion.
pascalnz
06-19-07, 10:10 PM kalarus I have to disagree with your thoughts that a weapon is a one or two handed weapon dependant on the way you hold it. they do in fact have strict catagories, light one handed and two handed. These are based on medium creatures, if you are not using a medium creature then you simply pick the weapon up or down grade the damge type and continue using the light, one handed or two handed category for that weapon.

It's a size of weapon relationship to the relative size of the wielder.

there was a bunch of stuff on this very ability, and I'm sure if you poke it into the CC boards, where they take lawyering very seriously , you'll get a fast answer:P
Bopple
06-19-07, 10:33 PM All the dm's I personally know(including me), agree with Kalarus.
Note that Complete Warrior is the first 3.5 splatbook.
Those redundant sentences are there to clear the vague 3.0 weapon-handedness rule, imo.
Kalarus
06-20-07, 08:53 AM kalarus I have to disagree with your thoughts that a weapon is a one or two handed weapon dependant on the way you hold it. they do in fact have strict catagories, light one handed and two handed. These are based on medium creatures, if you are not using a medium creature then you simply pick the weapon up or down grade the damge type and continue using the light, one handed or two handed category for that weapon.

It's a size of weapon relationship to the relative size of the wielder.

there was a bunch of stuff on this very ability, and I'm sure if you poke it into the CC boards, where they take lawyering very seriously , you'll get a fast answer:P

:banghead:

Fine, I'll quote the damned PHB.

PHB p113, Weapon Categories section, Light, One-Handed, and Two-Handed Melee Weapons subsection, One-Handed paragraph: "If a one-handed weapon is wielded with two hands during melee combat, add 1-1/2 times the character's strength bonus to damage rolls."

PHB p98, Feat Descriptions section, Power Atttack feat description: "Special: If you attack with a two-handed weapon, or with a one-handed weapon wielded in two hands, instead add twice the number subtracted from your attack rolls."

There, that's all we need for the discussion at hand. All in the PHB. For the intents and purposes of making these calculations, a onehanded weapon for your size wielded in two hands functions as a twohanded weapon. Of course it is still categorized as a onehanded weapon for your size and you could wield it in one if you chose to, nor did I ever deny this. However when wielding that onehander in two hands, for all practical purposes you are treated as wielding a twohanded weapon. That's what twohanded means you know, "held in two hands".
ShinAkuma2
06-20-07, 01:29 PM However when wielding that onehander in two hands, for all practical purposes you are treated as wielding a twohanded weapon.

That's an interesting conclusion, given that everything you posted contradicts this.

The fact that they differentiate between "two-handed weapon" and "one-handed weapon weilded in two hands" every time shows that they are not, in fact, the same thing. If they were, they would just say, "two-handed weapon", and then probably have a note somewhere that any non-light weapon held in two hands is a two-handed weapon.
Thiez
06-20-07, 01:36 PM I agree there's 3 kinds of weapons, light, one-handed, and two-handed. Having said that, I hate how the 'x2 strenght instead of x1.5' doesn't apply to two-handed weapons. Makes no sense to me... :(
Kalarus
06-20-07, 04:39 PM That's an interesting conclusion, given that everything you posted contradicts this.

The fact that they differentiate between "two-handed weapon" and "one-handed weapon weilded in two hands" every time shows that they are not, in fact, the same thing. If they were, they would just say, "two-handed weapon", and then probably have a note somewhere that any non-light weapon held in two hands is a two-handed weapon.

It does not contradict this because I obviously consider the weapon types to be alterable and instead look at what is actually happening. A large longsword for a medium creature is a twohanded weapon. For a large creature it is a onehanded weapon. A greatsword for a large creature is a onehanded weapon (albeit at -2 to hit). When you read "two-handed weapon" you apparently read "weapon that a medium creature has to use in two hands", I write "weapon that is wielded in two hands" because I want to consider what actually happens, not wether or not a creature happens to be medium just because the PHB lists weapon types for medium creatures.
ShinAkuma2
06-20-07, 05:20 PM It does not contradict this because I obviously consider the weapon types to be alterable and instead look at what is actually happening.

The weapon types may be alterable, but your size (assuming you're not under the effects of magic) is not. If you are a medium creature, then a medium-sized Greatsword is always a two-handed weapon, a large sized Longsword is always a two-handed weapon, and a small-sized Rapier is always a light weapon.

When you read "two-handed weapon" you apparently read "weapon that a medium creature has to use in two hands"

Yes, because that's what it means, as per the PHB glossary.

two-handed weapon: a weapon designed for use in two hands, such as a greatsword. A two-handed weapon is considered to be an object of the same size as its designated weilder (for example, a Medium greatsword is a Medium object).

Now a one-handed weapon is:

one-handed weapon: A weapon designed for use in one hand, such as a longsword, often either along with a shield or a light weapon in the other hand. A one-handed weapon is considered to be an object one size category smaller than its designated weilder (for example, a Medium longsword is a Small object).

A longsword is a one-handed weapon for a creature of the size for which the sword was designed. That never changes, no matter how many hands that creature uses to weild the sword. What you suggest is that by putting your other hand on a longsword, it magically becomes a two-handed weapon, which implies that it suddenly becomes the same size of the weilder, as per the definition of "two-handed weapon". It would also gain HP, as well, since that's decided by the weapon's size.

Please either concede that you 1) understand that one-handed in two hands =/= two-handed weapon, or 2) you think putting a second hand on a one-handed weapon makes it gain size and HP, as per the definition of two-handed weapon.
Gilfalas_Elaandrin
06-20-07, 06:07 PM Now that we have cleared up weapon categories, can anyone clear up that wording from Exotic Weapon Master? It the only thing it does is allow you to add double Str when wielding a one hander in two hands that seems very week.
Thiez
06-20-07, 06:32 PM Now that we have cleared up weapon categories, can anyone clear up that wording from Exotic Weapon Master? It the only thing it does is allow you to add double Str when wielding a one hander in two hands that seems very week.

Does it? Let's say we're wielding a Bastard sword one handed (since it's our Exotic Weapon). Now we wield it two handed, and yipee! compare:

Greatsword: 2d6 + 1.5 * Str (Avg 7 + 1.5 * Str)
Bastard Sword: 1d10 + 2 * Str (Avg 5.5 + 2 * Str)

Solve:
7 + 1.5x = 5.5 + 2x ---- substract 5.5
1.5 + 1.5x = 2x ---- substract 1.5x
1.5 = 0.5x ---- multiply by 2
x = 3

So once your strength bonus goes above 3, you're better off wielding that bastard sword than the greatsword.

I'd kill to get x2 strength on two-handed weapons (mainly because it's cool), but this'll have to do :)
Gilfalas_Elaandrin
06-20-07, 06:55 PM I get that much. My question is what does the line in the ability refering to Power Attack DO?
ShinAkuma2
06-20-07, 11:17 PM It gives a 2:1 ratio on Power Attack.

Your one-handed weapon is considered two-handed for the purpose of Power Attack. A two-handed weapon gets a 2:1 ratio. As such, your one-handed weapon gets a 2:1 ratio on Power Attack.

Note that it doesn't say that it gives this bonus while weilding it in two hands...I'm sure that it's meant to count as a two-handed weapon for the purpose of Power Attack at all times, regardless of how many hands you use.

It's either that, or it does absolutely nothing.
Gilfalas_Elaandrin
06-26-07, 10:42 PM And no one does TWF builds using this why?
ShinAkuma2
06-26-07, 11:22 PM And no one does TWF builds using this why?

Because it's even more feat intensive than normal TWFing, since now you need an EWP, Oversized TWF, and Power Attack. Also, it's going to be even harder to hit when you start adding PA penalties to TWF penalties.
Gilfalas_Elaandrin
06-28-07, 03:39 PM Because it's even more feat intensive than normal TWFing, since now you need an EWP, Oversized TWF, and Power Attack. Also, it's going to be even harder to hit when you start adding PA penalties to TWF penalties.

Only if you want to DW the same weapon in each hand. If your a dwarf you can do this with Dwarven Waraxe without spending a single feat. All it would cost is one level of Exotic Weapon Master (which for 2 for 1 powerattack with a one handed weapon seems amazing worth it).

Although I do see your point in that a truly optimal build you want the same weapon in both hands to double up on your feat expenditures, but with Tempest you can get all the feats you have for your main weapon with any weapon in your off hand.

Seems to me a TWF with Tempest and one level of Exotic Weapon Master would be nasty. Add in Combat Brute (if memory serves me) and you can dump your power attack to hit minus into AC instead and deliver a seriously nice amount of damage in one round.

But your are right in the fact that TWF is feat expensive as it is. Add in Exotic Weapon and possibly Oversized TWF and it does get worse.

As for power attack, I don't think a single warrior-type character I have ever made does not have it and cleave. Though I will say that I am far from an ideal Char Optimizer these two feats seam far too usefull even into high levels to not be taken.

While power attack is not used a lot before level 8 or so it is needed for cleave which CAN and IS used a LOT in that level range if your playing right.
And 2 for 1 power attack on BOTH weapons if you do spend the extra feats is just amazing IMO.

Wonder if you could to this with a Frenzied Bersker.....?

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Gilfalas_Elaandrin 06-18-07, 04:48 PM	In the Exotic Weapon Master out of the Complete book of Warriors there is a selection that allows you to use double your str bonus instead of 1/5 times when uzing an Exotic One handed weapon Two Handed. It further states" "If they have power attack they treat the weapon as two handed for purposes of determining their bonus on damage rolls". What EXACTLY does that second part mean? The first part is pretty clear but does that mean that they get 2 damage per -1 to hit when using the exotic weapon one handed? Because you ALREADY get that when using any one handed weapon in two hands don't you? Also, aren't the Bastard Sword and Dwarven War Axe already BOTH one handed and two handed if you have the Exotic Weapon feats for them? Normally they are martial 2H weapons but they become Exotic one handers if you spend the feat to use them that way (assuming non dwarf). I mean just because you learn how to use a Bastard sword in one hand shouldn't mean you forget how to learn to use it in two.
ShinAkuma2 06-18-07, 06:20 PM	I take it that it gives two abilities: If you use it two-handed, you get 2xStr instead of 1.5x. If you use it one-handed, you can treat it as two-handed for Power Attack, meaning 2 damage per -1 to attack. If it doesn't do the above, then that second sentence doesn't actually do anything...I always ere on the side of "abilities let you do things."
tarkin 06-18-07, 06:29 PM	Does it work on Light weapons? If it expressely allows Light weapons, than those sentences are pretty powerfull.
Gilfalas_Elaandrin 06-18-07, 06:47 PM	It explicitly references exotic one handed weapons. Not light. Although even allowing you to use, say a bastard sword, one handed and still get 2 damage per -1 to hit is still huge. I was not going to take a level of it since I did not want to lose a level of Spell Progression on my Cleric of Kelemvor but by gum I will if I get 2 for 1 on PA and still get to use my shield.
Kalarus 06-18-07, 08:51 PM	Usually, what matters is not what type the weapon normally is but how you are wielding it that decides wether the weapon is twohanded or onehanded. The weapon categories described are for medium creatures, the categories shift when size changes, so no weapon is by defition a twohander. A twohanded weapon is one that you wield in two hands, either because you can't wield it in one hand or because you choose to do so because it's more effective. This makes the second line in that trick description utterly redundant, because if the character is wielding an exotic weapon that he can use in one hand with two hands, he already gains the double power attack bonus. Either someone didn't do their homework while writing the book, or you get double power attack bonus when wielding the weapon in one hand. Reading the trick description I'd think someone just didn't do their homework and the line is in fact redundant. The second sentence states "If he has the power attack feat", in which case, "he" refers to "the character wielding a one-handed exotic weapon in two hands" as specified by the first sentence. Had the intention been two seperate abilities it likely would've said "If a characer wielding a one-handed exotic weapon has the power attack feat" or some such. I'd interpret it as a redundant sentence in the description.
ShinAkuma2 06-18-07, 11:35 PM	The second sentence states "If he has the power attack feat", in which case, "he" refers to "the character wielding a one-handed exotic weapon in two hands" as specified by the first sentence. Had the intention been two seperate abilities it likely would've said "If a characer wielding a one-handed exotic weapon has the power attack feat" or some such. I have to disagree. If that's what was intended, it more likely would have said, "If he has the power attack feat as well," which directly says, "If that guy previously referenced as using a one-handed weapon in two hands also has Power Attack..." As it stands, it looks to me more like, "If you weild your one-handed weapon in two hands, you get this. If you weild it as normal and use Power Attack, you get this instead."
Gilfalas_Elaandrin 06-19-07, 12:21 PM	Usually, what matters is not what type the weapon normally is but how you are wielding it that decides wether the weapon is twohanded or onehanded. Much as I wish this was true it is not. The PHB, SRD & the power attack feat very clearly delineate the differences between Light, One Handed and 2 Handed weapons. The fact that your using a weapon in two hands only matters for One Handed Weapons and 2 Handed Weapons. Light weapons gain 0 benefit from being used with 2 hands, either from bonus str damage or power attack (with that later not usable with a light weapon at all).
ravenshrike 06-19-07, 02:24 PM	Does it work on Light weapons? If it expressely allows Light weapons, than those sentences are pretty powerfull. It wroks on anything classed as a rapier or above. Which opens both elven thinblade and lightblade.
Gilfalas_Elaandrin 06-19-07, 04:30 PM	It works on anything classed as a rapier or above. Which opens both elven thinblade and lightblade. Wrong. While it WILL work with the Thinblade (since the Thinblade is an Exotic one handed weapon) it quite expressly does NOT work with the Lightblade since that is a Exotic light weapon and the ability explicitly says ONE HANDED Exotic weapons. Again this ability clearly says it is used with Exotic One Handed Weapons. NOT Exotic Light or 2 Handed weapons. While light weapons are used in one hand they are not 'one handed class' weapons.
Kalarus 06-19-07, 07:22 PM	Much as I wish this was true it is not. The PHB, SRD & the power attack feat very clearly delineate the differences between Light, One Handed and 2 Handed weapons. The fact that your using a weapon in two hands only matters for One Handed Weapons and 2 Handed Weapons. Light weapons gain 0 benefit from being used with 2 hands, either from bonus str damage or power attack (with that later not usable with a light weapon at all). Which is why I said that it decides wether a weapon is onehanded or twohanded, not wether a weapon is light or not ;). You are right though, light weapons are a different category altogether, and there are some exceptions to the rule for onehanders, hence the word "usually". Usually, you can wield any onehanded weapon in two hands. Some onehanders, like the rapier, are explicitly described as unusable in such a fashion.
pascalnz 06-19-07, 10:10 PM	kalarus I have to disagree with your thoughts that a weapon is a one or two handed weapon dependant on the way you hold it. they do in fact have strict catagories, light one handed and two handed. These are based on medium creatures, if you are not using a medium creature then you simply pick the weapon up or down grade the damge type and continue using the light, one handed or two handed category for that weapon. It's a size of weapon relationship to the relative size of the wielder. there was a bunch of stuff on this very ability, and I'm sure if you poke it into the CC boards, where they take lawyering very seriously , you'll get a fast answer:P
Bopple 06-19-07, 10:33 PM	All the dm's I personally know(including me), agree with Kalarus. Note that Complete Warrior is the first 3.5 splatbook. Those redundant sentences are there to clear the vague 3.0 weapon-handedness rule, imo.
Kalarus 06-20-07, 08:53 AM	kalarus I have to disagree with your thoughts that a weapon is a one or two handed weapon dependant on the way you hold it. they do in fact have strict catagories, light one handed and two handed. These are based on medium creatures, if you are not using a medium creature then you simply pick the weapon up or down grade the damge type and continue using the light, one handed or two handed category for that weapon. It's a size of weapon relationship to the relative size of the wielder. there was a bunch of stuff on this very ability, and I'm sure if you poke it into the CC boards, where they take lawyering very seriously , you'll get a fast answer:P :banghead: Fine, I'll quote the damned PHB. PHB p113, Weapon Categories section, Light, One-Handed, and Two-Handed Melee Weapons subsection, One-Handed paragraph: "If a one-handed weapon is wielded with two hands during melee combat, add 1-1/2 times the character's strength bonus to damage rolls." PHB p98, Feat Descriptions section, Power Atttack feat description: "Special: If you attack with a two-handed weapon, or with a one-handed weapon wielded in two hands, instead add twice the number subtracted from your attack rolls." There, that's all we need for the discussion at hand. All in the PHB. For the intents and purposes of making these calculations, a onehanded weapon for your size wielded in two hands functions as a twohanded weapon. Of course it is still categorized as a onehanded weapon for your size and you could wield it in one if you chose to, nor did I ever deny this. However when wielding that onehander in two hands, for all practical purposes you are treated as wielding a twohanded weapon. That's what twohanded means you know, "held in two hands".
ShinAkuma2 06-20-07, 01:29 PM	However when wielding that onehander in two hands, for all practical purposes you are treated as wielding a twohanded weapon. That's an interesting conclusion, given that everything you posted contradicts this. The fact that they differentiate between "two-handed weapon" and "one-handed weapon weilded in two hands" every time shows that they are not, in fact, the same thing. If they were, they would just say, "two-handed weapon", and then probably have a note somewhere that any non-light weapon held in two hands is a two-handed weapon.
Thiez 06-20-07, 01:36 PM	I agree there's 3 kinds of weapons, light, one-handed, and two-handed. Having said that, I hate how the 'x2 strenght instead of x1.5' doesn't apply to two-handed weapons. Makes no sense to me... :(
Kalarus 06-20-07, 04:39 PM	That's an interesting conclusion, given that everything you posted contradicts this. The fact that they differentiate between "two-handed weapon" and "one-handed weapon weilded in two hands" every time shows that they are not, in fact, the same thing. If they were, they would just say, "two-handed weapon", and then probably have a note somewhere that any non-light weapon held in two hands is a two-handed weapon. It does not contradict this because I obviously consider the weapon types to be alterable and instead look at what is actually happening. A large longsword for a medium creature is a twohanded weapon. For a large creature it is a onehanded weapon. A greatsword for a large creature is a onehanded weapon (albeit at -2 to hit). When you read "two-handed weapon" you apparently read "weapon that a medium creature has to use in two hands", I write "weapon that is wielded in two hands" because I want to consider what actually happens, not wether or not a creature happens to be medium just because the PHB lists weapon types for medium creatures.
ShinAkuma2 06-20-07, 05:20 PM	It does not contradict this because I obviously consider the weapon types to be alterable and instead look at what is actually happening. The weapon types may be alterable, but your size (assuming you're not under the effects of magic) is not. If you are a medium creature, then a medium-sized Greatsword is always a two-handed weapon, a large sized Longsword is always a two-handed weapon, and a small-sized Rapier is always a light weapon. When you read "two-handed weapon" you apparently read "weapon that a medium creature has to use in two hands" Yes, because that's what it means, as per the PHB glossary. two-handed weapon: a weapon designed for use in two hands, such as a greatsword. A two-handed weapon is considered to be an object of the same size as its designated weilder (for example, a Medium greatsword is a Medium object). Now a one-handed weapon is: one-handed weapon: A weapon designed for use in one hand, such as a longsword, often either along with a shield or a light weapon in the other hand. A one-handed weapon is considered to be an object one size category smaller than its designated weilder (for example, a Medium longsword is a Small object). A longsword is a one-handed weapon for a creature of the size for which the sword was designed. That never changes, no matter how many hands that creature uses to weild the sword. What you suggest is that by putting your other hand on a longsword, it magically becomes a two-handed weapon, which implies that it suddenly becomes the same size of the weilder, as per the definition of "two-handed weapon". It would also gain HP, as well, since that's decided by the weapon's size. Please either concede that you 1) understand that one-handed in two hands =/= two-handed weapon, or 2) you think putting a second hand on a one-handed weapon makes it gain size and HP, as per the definition of two-handed weapon.
Gilfalas_Elaandrin 06-20-07, 06:07 PM	Now that we have cleared up weapon categories, can anyone clear up that wording from Exotic Weapon Master? It the only thing it does is allow you to add double Str when wielding a one hander in two hands that seems very week.
Thiez 06-20-07, 06:32 PM	Now that we have cleared up weapon categories, can anyone clear up that wording from Exotic Weapon Master? It the only thing it does is allow you to add double Str when wielding a one hander in two hands that seems very week. Does it? Let's say we're wielding a Bastard sword one handed (since it's our Exotic Weapon). Now we wield it two handed, and yipee! compare: Greatsword: 2d6 + 1.5 * Str (Avg 7 + 1.5 * Str) Bastard Sword: 1d10 + 2 * Str (Avg 5.5 + 2 * Str) Solve: 7 + 1.5x = 5.5 + 2x ---- substract 5.5 1.5 + 1.5x = 2x ---- substract 1.5x 1.5 = 0.5x ---- multiply by 2 x = 3 So once your strength bonus goes above 3, you're better off wielding that bastard sword than the greatsword. I'd kill to get x2 strength on two-handed weapons (mainly because it's cool), but this'll have to do :)
Gilfalas_Elaandrin 06-20-07, 06:55 PM	I get that much. My question is what does the line in the ability refering to Power Attack DO?
ShinAkuma2 06-20-07, 11:17 PM	It gives a 2:1 ratio on Power Attack. Your one-handed weapon is considered two-handed for the purpose of Power Attack. A two-handed weapon gets a 2:1 ratio. As such, your one-handed weapon gets a 2:1 ratio on Power Attack. Note that it doesn't say that it gives this bonus while weilding it in two hands...I'm sure that it's meant to count as a two-handed weapon for the purpose of Power Attack at all times, regardless of how many hands you use. It's either that, or it does absolutely nothing.
Gilfalas_Elaandrin 06-26-07, 10:42 PM	And no one does TWF builds using this why?
ShinAkuma2 06-26-07, 11:22 PM	And no one does TWF builds using this why? Because it's even more feat intensive than normal TWFing, since now you need an EWP, Oversized TWF, and Power Attack. Also, it's going to be even harder to hit when you start adding PA penalties to TWF penalties.
Gilfalas_Elaandrin 06-28-07, 03:39 PM	Because it's even more feat intensive than normal TWFing, since now you need an EWP, Oversized TWF, and Power Attack. Also, it's going to be even harder to hit when you start adding PA penalties to TWF penalties. Only if you want to DW the same weapon in each hand. If your a dwarf you can do this with Dwarven Waraxe without spending a single feat. All it would cost is one level of Exotic Weapon Master (which for 2 for 1 powerattack with a one handed weapon seems amazing worth it). Although I do see your point in that a truly optimal build you want the same weapon in both hands to double up on your feat expenditures, but with Tempest you can get all the feats you have for your main weapon with any weapon in your off hand. Seems to me a TWF with Tempest and one level of Exotic Weapon Master would be nasty. Add in Combat Brute (if memory serves me) and you can dump your power attack to hit minus into AC instead and deliver a seriously nice amount of damage in one round. But your are right in the fact that TWF is feat expensive as it is. Add in Exotic Weapon and possibly Oversized TWF and it does get worse. As for power attack, I don't think a single warrior-type character I have ever made does not have it and cleave. Though I will say that I am far from an ideal Char Optimizer these two feats seam far too usefull even into high levels to not be taken. While power attack is not used a lot before level 8 or so it is needed for cleave which CAN and IS used a LOT in that level range if your playing right. And 2 for 1 power attack on BOTH weapons if you do spend the extra feats is just amazing IMO. Wonder if you could to this with a Frenzied Bersker.....?