Post/Author/DateTime	Post
El_Machinae 05-15-07, 08:22 AM	Is there no feat for a bow that mimicks this mechanic? Reducing accuracy for an increased 'punch' to the arrow?
BugHunter 05-15-07, 09:17 AM	The only way to get extra punch with a bow is to use the feats of rapid shot or many shot. But one that will allow you to subtract from your to hit and add to damage I haven't seen one.
penchant 05-15-07, 09:51 AM	No. The idea of power attack just doesn't work with a bow. You can only draw one so far. Bows benefit from other tactics. If you want to pack more punch, use poison. you can take 10 while applying it to arrows out of combat and it really does work. Some DM's think its inherently evil, as do most paladins, but rangers usually get along just fine.
Egres 05-15-07, 10:18 AM	Play a Peerless Archer, found in Silver Marches.
Soceus 05-15-07, 05:34 PM	Get a composite bow, for an additional 500 gp you can add a strength mod of of up to +5, but the down side is when you do this you have to match the cost of the strength mod bonus to the composite bow with your strength mod, or else you get negitives for using it. Sorta like power attack, but without the negitives if you match your strength mod correctly with which type of composite bow you want.
Lucas Blackstone 05-15-07, 06:46 PM	The mechanics of the power attack feat work fine with a bow but it comes down to how you describe it. If I am aiming for a harder to hit target where the enemy is more vulnerable, and I hit said target, I should do more damage. This ability doesn't necessarily require special anatomy knowledge like a sneak attack or death attack might. It could be I shot him in the eye and did extra damage. An eye is harder to hit then the entire creature was. So while it's not the same flavor text as normal power attack, ie I swing REALLY HARD instead of using skill, it would still be balanced in the way of lowering hit chance, increasing damage.
StruckingFuggle 05-15-07, 06:46 PM	No. The idea of power attack just doesn't work with a bow. You can only draw one so far. But who says that power attack (whose idea is "trade to-hit for damage") is anything like "draw one even farther back"? That's not even a fair representation / analogy of melee power attack to begin with - which doesn't even have a defined flavor in the PHB, anyway; it's just "you can make stronger attacks by trading to-hit for damage" (note, not an exact quote). One way to look at it is as a called shot mechanic. A normal attack is just trying to hit your enemy. A Power Attack, on the other hand, is aiming for something that's gonna really hurt (represented by the increased damage), but since you're aiming for a specific part of them, it'll be harder to score a damaging blow (represented by the penalty to your attack bonus). Now, apply the same thing to ranged weapons... When you use a ranged weapon (actually, I'm speaking of what I was taught when I got my concealed handgun license, and what I've heard from cops and military friends, so this is involving guns, but I imagine the principle would be the same for other projectile weapons), you aim for center mass. You don't aim anywhere in specific, because center mass is the easiest way to gaurantee a hit, even if there's other places you could aim for that would do more damage. Say, a headshot. Sure, the headshot would do more damage (increased damage), but it's harder to hit (if you aim for it, you take a penalty to your attack bonus). Similarly, Ranged Power Attack wouldn't be "drawing the bow back more", it would be "aiming for a more damaging but harder to hit target". Which you can certainly do with a ranged weapon (insert "BOOM! HEADSHOT!" <here>).
Fallenangel359 05-15-07, 06:52 PM	there is a specific bow, it matches your strength mod exactly, has unlimited force arrows, and lets you powerattack as if with a 1handed weapon its called energy bow, from the animated series handbook
El_Machinae 05-15-07, 08:52 PM	Sure, the headshot would do more damage (increased damage), but it's harder to hit (if you aim for it, you take a penalty to your attack bonus). Similarly, Ranged Power Attack wouldn't be "drawing the bow back more", it would be "aiming for a more damaging but harder to hit target". I like your reasoning, it gives me a good insight on an alternate way of looking at the mechanics. To be honest, though, I was more thinking of "pulling back on the bow more" :) When I use a bow, I can only pull back so far before I lose accuracy - I could get more 'oomph' out of the arrow if I were to hoist more on the bowstring, but I'd really lose accuracy quickly.
Crashy75 05-15-07, 09:49 PM	But who says that power attack (whose idea is "trade to-hit for damage") is anything like "draw one even farther back"? That's not even a fair representation / analogy of melee power attack to begin with - which doesn't even have a defined flavor in the PHB, anyway; it's just "you can make stronger attacks by trading to-hit for damage" (note, not an exact quote). One way to look at it is as a called shot mechanic. A normal attack is just trying to hit your enemy. A Power Attack, on the other hand, is aiming for something that's gonna really hurt (represented by the increased damage), but since you're aiming for a specific part of them, it'll be harder to score a damaging blow (represented by the penalty to your attack bonus). Now, apply the same thing to ranged weapons... When you use a ranged weapon (actually, I'm speaking of what I was taught when I got my concealed handgun license, and what I've heard from cops and military friends, so this is involving guns, but I imagine the principle would be the same for other projectile weapons), you aim for center mass. You don't aim anywhere in specific, because center mass is the easiest way to gaurantee a hit, even if there's other places you could aim for that would do more damage. Say, a headshot. Sure, the headshot would do more damage (increased damage), but it's harder to hit (if you aim for it, you take a penalty to your attack bonus). Similarly, Ranged Power Attack wouldn't be "drawing the bow back more", it would be "aiming for a more damaging but harder to hit target". Which you can certainly do with a ranged weapon (insert "BOOM! HEADSHOT!" <here>). That's an interesting way to look at it. This looks to me more like precision damage than 'power attacking'. This is how I imagine sneak attacks and criticals work. In this sense, you get this affect from the improved critical feat.
penchant 05-15-07, 11:32 PM	That's an interesting way to look at it. This looks to me more like precision damage than 'power attacking'. This is how I imagine sneak attacks and criticals work. In this sense, you get this affect from the improved critical feat. This is correct. Aiming for a vulnerable target is precision damage. This means either sneak attack/skirmish/sudden strike or expanded criticals. power attack is "you make exceptionally powerful melee attacks." this is not striking vulnerable areas, it works on creatures that are immune to crits and precision damage. It even works on objects. Power attack is simply hitting harder than you can accurately control. Bows are all about precision. Composite bows work because they manage more power without expending accuracy. If you want more power, design the compound bow.
Fireclave 05-16-07, 12:11 AM	there is a specific bow, it matches your strength mod exactly, has unlimited force arrows, and lets you powerattack as if with a 1handed weapon its called energy bow, from the animated series handbook And here it is (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ask/20061227a). Its cheesiness is debatable.
kelvinaw273 05-16-07, 12:32 PM	No. The idea of power attack just doesn't work with a bow. You can only draw one so far. Bows benefit from other tactics. If you want to pack more punch, use poison. you can take 10 while applying it to arrows out of combat and it really does work. Some DM's think its inherently evil, as do most paladins, but rangers usually get along just fine. Not strictly true. You can (and this was done) brace the bow with your feet and draw back the string with both hands. However, this increased the range of the shot more than the power ... it also knackered the bow if you did more than a few shots this way. I would amend it thus if that's what you want to do: Increase range increments by 50%, take a -2 penalty to hit, treat the bow as 2-handed weapon (one-and-one-half times strength bonus in damage), but if it's not Mighty to that extent, it takes that much as damage. If you want good bow damage try a Great Bow (Complete Warrior) - base damage is 1d10 although it is an exotic weapon proficiency.
El_Machinae 05-16-07, 01:49 PM	This is correct. Aiming for a vulnerable target is precision damage. This means either sneak attack/skirmish/sudden strike or expanded criticals. power attack is "you make exceptionally powerful melee attacks." this is not striking vulnerable areas, it works on creatures that are immune to crits and precision damage. It even works on objects. Power attack is simply hitting harder than you can accurately control. I agree. If we could pretend that it was precision damage, then we would be able to power attack with a dagger and the like. The idea of using the feet to pull back the bow is a good one; it's a good way to imagine getting more 'oomph' out of a bow-shot whilst sacrificing a certain amount of accuracy.
starfire311 05-16-07, 04:19 PM	peerless archer gets it as a class ability in silver marches, that said I hate the mechanic and I ahte the fluff that is tried to use to justify it... lets see "I am so incredibly well that I am less likly to hit, but if I do hit I do more damage". No called shots should be better represented by precise damage, like the OotBI, that gets extra precise damage. Anotehr way to represent it is by expanded crit range or extra damage on a crit like teh deepwood sniper, IMO both OotBI and DS have superior called shot mechanics to the peerless archer, from a simulation standpoint. If you aim for a vital or specific area, you are not less likly to hit the whole mass, you are just more likely to do extra damage if you hit. That is my opinion. Perhaps a feat that let you trade extra attack bonus over and beyond the amount needed to succeed for damage. Perhaps for every 2 points you succeed on your attack roll by, you deal an extra point of damage, this could be really powerful, it may need to be adjusted some.
Grand Theft Otto 05-16-07, 04:39 PM	peerless archer gets it as a class ability in silver marches, that said I hate the mechanic and I ahte the fluff that is tried to use to justify it... lets see "I am so incredibly well that I am less likly to hit, but if I do hit I do more damage". No called shots should be better represented by precise damage, like the OotBI, that gets extra precise damage. I dont see what's hard to understand. Its how most systems deal with called shots to more vulnerable areas - you trade accuracy for damage. We made a feat to do this that had precise shot as a prerequisite and its worked out fine.
Lucas Blackstone 05-16-07, 04:43 PM	The idea being represented is that if I aim at your eye, and you move your head, and I hit your helmet, I ended up doing cosmetic damage. If I aim for a joint in your platemail and you turn in time and I hit your armor straight on, I do cosmetic damage. That is what people are talking about with having a lower chance to hit to do extra damage with a bow. It makes more sense to me then power attack does for melee, since the way they run it is that swinging harder INCREASES your chance to hit. A guy with 10 strength has a much less chance to hit then a guy who has an 18 strength, who in turn has a much less chance then a guy who has a 22 strength. Hitting HARDER increases your chance to hit according to D&D, but then low and behold there is power attack that states that it works in reverse?
starfire311 05-16-07, 05:07 PM	I dont see what's hard to understand. Its how most systems deal with called shots to more vulnerable areas - you trade accuracy for damage. We made a feat to do this that had precise shot as a prerequisite and its worked out fine. I don't have a problem with the balance issues, I have a problem with the flavor, a feat that allows you to more easily strike vital areas should not reduce your accuracy. It is like a feat that makes it easier for you to hit the bullseye of a target, but if you miss the bulleye you miss the entire target. Why would a feat who's flavor is that you are such a great shot that you are more likely to hit your intended target, translate to reduced accuracy in game mechanics.
Grand Theft Otto 05-16-07, 05:17 PM	I don't have a problem with the balance issues, I have a problem with the flavor, a feat that allows you to more easily strike vital areas should not reduce your accuracy. It is like a feat that makes it easier for you to hit the bullseye of a target, but if you miss the bulleye you miss the entire target. Why would a feat who's flavor is that you are such a great shot that you are more likely to hit your intended target, translate to reduced accuracy in game mechanics. Lets say all I want to do is hit someone. I dont care where. That's easy enough - if I miss their chest I might hit their arm. I still hurt them. Now lets say I am aiming for their head. If I miss the head, yeah, theres a chance I could still hit them in the chest, but since the overall target area was smaller, I might overshoot it a bit. I can kind of see what you're saying, I've just played in enough gaming systems where stuff like head shots trade to hit for damage to not let it bother me. Combat is a fairly goofy abstraction as it stands in D&D.
Chimaera2000 05-16-07, 06:11 PM	There's no mechanical reason why Power Shot shouldn't be available as a feat and its flavor can be rationalized as a shot to vital areas (like "called shots" in other games). I think that one shouldn't have to rely on obscure prestige classes like Peerless Archer (as cool as it is) and weapons like the Energy Bow (as cool as that is) to gain access to a relatively simple mechanic.
AtmaWeapon 05-16-07, 08:56 PM	How about this as a suggestion? [Penetrating Shot] You are trained to use bows with extraordinary pull. Benefit: You no longer take penalties for using bows with a strength rating higher then your normal strength modifier. As part of a ranged attack with a composite bow, you may take a penalty of up to -5 to your attack rolls to add the same amount of bonus damage. The penalty chosen may not exceed the difference between your strength modifier and the strength rating of the bow. For example, if a character with Str 14 (+2) is using a composite bow with a rated strength bonus of +6, he may not choose a penalty of more then -4. Furthermore, the penalty chosen may not exceed your base attack bonus.
starfire311 05-16-07, 10:46 PM	Lets say all I want to do is hit someone. I dont care where. That's easy enough - if I miss their chest I might hit their arm. I still hurt them. Now lets say I am aiming for their head. If I miss the head, yeah, theres a chance I could still hit them in the chest, but since the overall target area was smaller, I might overshoot it a bit. I can kind of see what you're saying, I've just played in enough gaming systems where stuff like head shots trade to hit for damage to not let it bother me. Combat is a fairly goofy abstraction as it stands in D&D. so how does this power shot work against creatures like golems with no vitals?
somogyi 05-16-07, 11:51 PM	i feel that ftr makes a good archer. point blank shot, rapid shot, weapon fc, weapon spec, improved rapid shot, ranged weapon mastery,greater weapon spec, good str and a comp bow with a mod to match urs. order of the bow inititiate is a good prc for shelling out dmg.
Caspain 05-17-07, 02:28 AM	I read a fair bit of this thread but eventually got tired of the Halo-player-esque banter. Try this. Incredible Shot: Pre-reqs: Point Blank and Precise Shot Blah blah blah, you can power attack with a bow blah blah, house rule feat. If it could exist, and your DM isn't a prick, you can make it happen. Just like I made Greater Skill Focus, pre-req Skill focus: gives +6 with a skill, doesn't stack with skill focus.
Muktar 05-17-07, 04:15 AM	The problem is as other people mentioned is that power attack is not precision based damage. All bows and xbows do is precision based damage. The only way to do more damage is to get a composite bow with a stronger pull. To the person that said that you can you can shoot a bow with two feet. Those are called footbows and they are not the same as a longbow nor as a shortbow. They even use different ammo. I am currently playing an 21st lvl archer that is dealing 1d8+ 24 per hit(we just lvled to 21 so I might be doing more). Bows can deal a lot of damage. You just have to build it right.
Lucas Blackstone 05-17-07, 06:41 AM	My issue isn't that 1d8+24 isn't okay damage. It's just that at level 5 or so a melee does the same damage as your level 21 archer. Archery needs some sort of boost. The splitting enchantment wouold help a lot but too many people think it's overpowered. I would agree that many attacks a round gets to be crazy, so that is why I thought an archery version of power attack would be better.
starfire311 05-17-07, 08:50 AM	My feat for the fluff of doing extra damage by hitting more vital areas would be something like. Precise Attack[General] Prerequisites: BAB +4, Precise Shot, Dex 13 Benefit: Deal an extra 1d6 damage on ranged attacks. You do not gain this extra damage against creatures that are immune to critical hits. Special: Fighters may take this with their bonus feat. Or Called Shot[General] Prerequisites: BAB +1, Precise Shot, Dex 13 Benefit: You may take a penalty on attacks for one round upto your base attack bonus. You must declare you are doing this at the beginning of your turn, and the effects last until the beginning of your next turn. You deal additional damage on ranged attacks equal to the penalty you take on attack rolls. If you fail to hit the target, but you would have hit the target without taking the penalty, then you still deal damage as though you didnt use this. This only works against targets within 30ft.You do not gain this extra damage against creatures that are immune to critical hits. Special: Fighters may take this with their bonus feat.
penchant 05-17-07, 11:18 AM	My feat for the fluff of doing extra damage by hitting more vital areas would be something like. Precise Attack[General] Prerequisites: BAB +4, Precise Shot, Dex 13 Benefit: Deal an extra 1d6 damage on ranged attacks. You do not gain this extra damage against creatures that are immune to critical hits. Special: Fighters may take this with their bonus feat. Or Called Shot[General] Prerequisites: BAB +1, Precise Shot, Dex 13 Benefit: You may take a penalty on attacks for one round upto your base attack bonus. You must declare you are doing this at the beginning of your turn, and the effects last until the beginning of your next turn. You deal additional damage on ranged attacks equal to the penalty you take on attack rolls. If you fail to hit the target, but you would have hit the target without taking the penalty, then you still deal damage as though you didnt use this. This only works against targets within 30ft.You do not gain this extra damage against creatures that are immune to critical hits. Special: Fighters may take this with their bonus feat. Mechanically speaking, neither of these work. The first is 1d6 extra damage at the cost of a single feat. This exceeds the scope of feats. For instance, Iron Fist adds 1d6 damage at the cost of a stunning fist use. You may want to stipulate "as a full attack action" to balance the feat. The second one does not work because there is never a reason to not use it. It always benefits you to use the feat since you hit anyway as if you did not.
starfire311 05-17-07, 11:38 AM	Mechanically speaking, neither of these work. The first is 1d6 extra damage at the cost of a single feat. This exceeds the scope of feats. For instance, Iron Fist adds 1d6 damage at the cost of a stunning fist use. You may want to stipulate "as a full attack action" to balance the feat. I dont think it does, since you it is slightly better than weapon specialization and far worse than Ranged weapon mastery, but is limited by not working against things immune to crits. The second one does not work because there is never a reason to not use it. It always benefits you to use the feat since you hit anyway as if you did not. correct, if you have it you should always use it for at least 1, this measn that if you hit you do +1 point of damage, and if you missed by 1 you do normal damage. so it comes down to you basically have a chance to do an extra point of damage, against a restrictd number of creatures, if you do anymore than that you run the risk of wasting your feat.
penchant 05-18-07, 01:09 AM	I dont think it does, since you it is slightly better than weapon specialization and far worse than Ranged weapon mastery, but is limited by not working against things immune to crits. correct, if you have it you should always use it for at least 1, this measn that if you hit you do +1 point of damage, and if you missed by 1 you do normal damage. so it comes down to you basically have a chance to do an extra point of damage, against a restrictd number of creatures, if you do anymore than that you run the risk of wasting your feat. Ranged weapon mastery has far more requirements than this feat. It is better than previous feats and breaks the old standards for feats that they themselves set up. However, unlike other stunning fist feats, Fists of Iron do still work on things immune to Stunning fist so you could be correct. Its a DM call. As to the second, What if I Called Shot up to my BAB of 20 (at 20th level) and therefore if I hit I get +20 to damage, but if I miss but still hit without the penalty I stillget to hit normally. So someone with the feat will not only use thefeat every round and every attack, they will always max it out. People with powerattack don't do this because of the increased likely hood that they will do no damage at all. That is the balance. Read the section in the DMG about feat creation. If a feat is so good there is no reason not to get it and use it all the time, then it is too good.
StruckingFuggle 05-18-07, 01:19 AM	How about a feat that requires Wis 13, Dex 13, and Point Blank Shot, that lets you trade -1 to hit on a bow for, say, 1.5 damage within one or two range increments, but it's precision damage?
penchant 05-18-07, 06:34 AM	How about a feat that requires Wis 13, Dex 13, and Point Blank Shot, that lets you trade -1 to hit on a bow for, say, 1.5 damage within one or two range increments, but it's precision damage? All precedents for precision damage follow the 30 foot rule (up to 60ft with boosts). I would not break this rule. Do you mean to add 1.5 or 1.5 total damage, eg an increase of .5 for the penalty of 1? Just for balance sake, I would go ahead and add 1 for each -1 penalty but only within 30 feet and still follows precision damage rules. Effects that extend precision damage (like crossbow sniper) also increase this range. This is a little gimped compared to Power attack as far as damage goes (no two handed rule) but that is the tradeoff for not being in a threatened square when you do it. That's why all ranged combat is one notch lower than melee. Of course, that's also why you fire from cover, hit flatfooted targets, and run away often.
El_Machinae 05-19-07, 01:15 PM	There are "Thrown Weapon" feats that mimick the mechanics of power attack (iirc). Those don't have a limit on the range they can be used, do they?
penchant 05-20-07, 04:44 AM	There are "Thrown Weapon" feats that mimick the mechanics of power attack (iirc). Those don't have a limit on the range they can be used, do they? No they don't. But they are based upon strength and not dexterity, in other words, penetration as opposed to placement. Power Throw, requires that you have Brutal Throw first which allows you to add your strength to hit instead of dex. It is still about how hard you hit.
StruckingFuggle 05-20-07, 01:11 PM	All precedents for precision damage follow the 30 foot rule (up to 60ft with boosts). I would not break this rule. All precedents for precision damage (at least, that I've seen so far) involve sneak attack or death attack. Things that it's more or less not balanced to let people deliver from 500' away. I don't think precision ranged power attack would / should work that way. It's not nearly as 'bad', and it gives range-ers something nice they can do at an effective ranged weaponry range (ie, not right next door to or in the middle of melee). However: any-range, nonprecision power attack is already in the game. As the third level ability of a rather obscure prc in some FR splatbook that most people don't have access to. I was merely trying to find a semi-acceptable (doesn't work against a lot of targets, being the tradeoff) way to make a (reasonable) housefeat that makes that more accessable, since it would help rangers, who're already generally worse off than melee. Also, for the sake of clarity: Do you mean to add 1.5 or 1.5 total damage, eg an increase of .5 for the penalty of 1? I'd meant -1 to hit = +1.5 damage, so in-game, -1 = +1, -2 = +3, -3 = +4, -4 = +6, and so on. Halfway between one-handed and two-handed.
penchant 05-20-07, 11:17 PM	All precedents for precision damage (at least, that I've seen so far) involve sneak attack or death attack. Things that it's more or less not balanced to let people deliver from 500' away. Point Blank shot is also 30' range which is a precision damage not based upon sneak attack or death attack. As far as ranged rangers not being in the big damage club, I sympathize. Unfortunatly the game is built around the 60' field of battle. If you have a random mix of characters the combat will take place within that range. The melee people will want to be within a charge attack, the rogues will need to be within a move of sneak attack and the clerics will want to be within a move of those two. Archer rangers should travel with wizards and bards. That way the ranger and wizard can snipe at 500' and the bards can buff and heal without fear of backstabbery. That is where the true archer shines. But any DM will hate to run such a thing (imagine him trying to figure the battle map out without changing the 5' scale). A player of mine was dismayed when his ranger was greatly overshadowed during a dungeon crawl. He was overshadowed by a greatsword wielding plate fighter. It was pointed out that the fighter lost 1/4 of his HP almost every battle while the ranger didn't take but one or two hits for most of the level, but there is no glory in that. He switched to a paladin at first opportunity but by then the undead portion was over and he was again unhappy. My point is, that an archer should not be made equivalent to a melee fighter, since it is comparing apples and oranges. A melee fighter will take far more hits than an archer will, while dealing more damage in a short amount of time. Explore the 500' range of the archers and find ways to let a true archer have his glory.
StruckingFuggle 05-20-07, 11:39 PM	But any DM will hate to run such a thing (imagine him trying to figure the battle map out without changing the 5' scale). The only things you really need to map are the place where the snipers are based. Have a rough description of the terrain where the PCs are and what they need to cross, and an idea of how much cover there is ... they don't need an explicit 1000'x1000' map for it...
Muktar 05-20-07, 11:44 PM	I agree. You don't even need to put it on a map. You only put things on a map to deal with flanking, charging, and so forth.
StruckingFuggle 05-21-07, 12:21 AM	I agree. You don't even need to put it on a map. You only put things on a map to deal with flanking, charging, and so forth. And movement-based AoOs. And reach. And precise movement. And actually, close-up combat is SO entrenched in that that it's hard to play, sometimes, without a map. >.< ...but yeah, the point is, it's not very important in long ranges.
penchant 05-21-07, 02:46 AM	Excellent! I'm glad that you all agree.
StruckingFuggle 05-21-07, 03:04 AM	Excellent! I'm glad that you all agree. Hey, I didn't say that. I'm a DM, and my initial reply was in the tone of voice of "hey, it doesn't seem that hard..." ... :p