Power Attack [Archive] - Wizards Community

Power Attack [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Olorin_
03-27-07, 09:22 PM How a wiz5/incantatrix4 can get persistent power attack without getting the feat or prcs.Only with spells...

I was thinking in persistent alter self,but i'd need some monster with power attack as racial feat.

Thanks!!
runestar
03-27-07, 10:01 PM Alter self into a human? You get the human bonus feat(which is a racial trait), which you can spend on any feat you like(assuming you meet the prereqs). Your stats suck though.

May I know why a spellcaster wants power attack? :P
NoldorForce
03-27-07, 10:17 PM May I know why a spellcaster wants power attack? :PFor reference, the reason Runestar is asking is because Power Attack has a maximum penalty/bonus equal to your BAB, and the BAB of a wizard without any gish PrCs is rather low.

Heroics (SL 2) would work if you could apply the Reach Spell metamagic to it or otherwise enable a fixed range. It gives the touched target one fighter bonus feat that they qualify for.
Olorin_
03-27-07, 10:24 PM Very nice idea!!And by doing that my stats won't change right?Because alter self don't change stats,am i right??

hmm,but i wouldn't be abble to use the troglodite +6 Ac thing...

May I know why a spellcaster wants power attack?

Yeah,because i'll cast a lot of persistent buffs and fight when spells over.

PS:A spell that gives you str bonus,like bull strenght or divine power would fit the prereqs for power attack???
runestar
03-27-07, 10:32 PM Hmm...I never considered divine power...:embarrass
If you could somehow have it cast on you(say via a ring of spell storing), you can then proceed to persist it. You effectively get full bab, which you can funnel into power attack. Persist wraithstrike, and polymorph into a 12-headed hydra or something...:eek:

I think you are better off just burning a feat slot and picking up power attack...:cool:
Olorin_
03-27-07, 10:46 PM Hmm...I never considered divine power...
If you could somehow have it cast on you(say via a ring of spell storing), you can then proceed to persist it. You effectively get full bab, which you can funnel into power attack. Persist wraithstrike, and polymorph into a 12-headed hydra or something...

I think you are better off just burning a feat slot and picking up power attack...

That's exactly what i'll do excpet for the hydra,i'll a thunderlance.but i don't have one feat remaining AND i would need str 13...please answer the questions in my last post.
runestar
03-27-07, 11:12 PM I am not really sure about the whole "alter self human grants bonus feat" thing. I think it should work though...

I think there is a monster which has power attack as a bonus feat. Can't remember which one though.
PS:A spell that gives you str bonus,like bull strenght or divine power would fit the prereqs for power attack???
yes. But if power attack is granted as a bonus feat(not as a human), you need not meet the prereqs).

So a human with 10 str and gloves of str+4 can take the power attack feat.
tarkin
03-28-07, 11:00 AM No, it does not work (unless you House Rule).

Alter self into a human? You get the human bonus feat(which is a racial trait), which you can spend on any feat you like(assuming you meet the prereqs). Your stats suck though.

This is a Power Gamer HOUSE RULE.

If you play by the actual rules, as printed by WoTC, Humans do NOT get a racial bonus feat. If you actually read the Monster Manual, you can see all racial bonus feats have a superscript "B" next to them. See Giant Ants for an example of a creature with a racial bonus feat (Track)

Humans don't have this. Instead humans get "1 extra feat".

I know it is hard to understand, but the difference between "1 extra feat" and a racial bonus feat is:

An extra feat is any feat you choose to get, as opposed to something specific that the race MUST take.

A Bonus feat is granted by Alter Self/Polymorph Self. Extra feats are not granted.

You must have the pre-reqs for 'an extra feat', but you do NOT have to meat the pre-reqs for a Racial Bonus feat. You get the bonus feat even if you do not qualify.

Feats
The line gives the creature’s feats. A monster gains feats just as a character does. Sometimes a creature has one or more bonus feats, marked with a superscript B (B). Creatures often do not have the prerequisites for a bonus feat. If this is so, the creature can still use the feat. If you wish to customize the creature with new feats, you can reassign its other feats, but not its bonus feats. A creature cannot have a feat that is not a bonus feat unless it has the feat’s prerequisites.
Zherog
03-28-07, 11:20 AM If you actually read the Monster Manual, you can see all racial bonus feats have a superscript "B" next to them. See Giant Ants for an example of a creature with a racial bonus feat (Track)

Humans don't have this. Instead humans get "1 extra feat".

That might be because humans aren't in the monster manual...
tarkin
03-28-07, 12:03 PM First, did you check the actual Monster Manual, as opposed to just looking in the SRD? Several creatures in the MM are not in the SRD (Beholder for example).

But even then, they still do not fit the requirements of a 'bonus feat'.

1. It says extra, not bonus.

2. It is a feat that they get to choose, despite the fact that Bonus feats clearly state that it can NOT be changed, all members of the race must have the same feat.

3. You need to meet the pre-reqs for your extra feat, while you don't need to do this for a racial bonus feats.

4. Other books use that same notation (superscript B), besides the Monster Manual. But the Human race does not list it.
Egres
03-28-07, 12:19 PM No, it does not work (unless you House Rule).

Even if it's not a bonus feat, it is still considered a racial trait.
tarkin
03-28-07, 01:18 PM And that means didily.

Alter Self does not grant all racial things.

...
You acquire the physical qualities of the new form while retaining your own mind. Physical qualities include natural size, mundane movement capabilities (such as burrowing, climbing, walking, swimming, and flight with wings, to a maximum speed of 120 feet for flying or 60 feet for nonflying movement), natural armor bonus, natural weapons (such as claws, bite, and so on), racial skill bonuses, racial bonus feats, and any gross physical qualities (presence or absence of wings, number of extremities, and so forth). A body with extra limbs does not allow you to make more attacks (or more advantageous two-weapon attacks) than normal.
...

Those are the only two places the words "racial" occures in Alter Self. This is not a racial skill bonus and not a racial bonus feat.

Whatever other racial thing it is, Alter Self does not grant it. Neither does Polymorph Self. You need to use Shapechange to get the human racial extra feat.

Also note, there is a 2nd level spell out there that grants you any fighter bonus feat for a short duration. I forgot it's name. But among other things, you must qualify for it (no taking Whirlwind if you don't have Spring Attack.)

So claiming that using Alter Self (2nd level) spell to get ANY feat (not just a fighter feat), plus disguise you and other stuff is kind of silly.
Egres
03-28-07, 01:46 PM This is not a racial skill bonus and not a racial bonus feat.
From the FAQ 3.5:

When my human uses polymorph* to take the form of
another creature, he loses any extraordinary special attacks
and qualities. Does this include his bonus feat and bonus
skill points? If so, how do I figure out which feat and skill
points are derived from his racial traits?

A human’s bonus feat and bonus skill points—like most
other racial traits—are considered extraordinary qualities, and
thus are lost when the character would lose such abilities
(including when polymorphed). This is a good reason to keep
track of which feat is your human bonus feat, since it might
have wide-reaching effects. (For instance, if Dodge was your
bonus feat, you’d lose the benefits of any other feats that have
Dodge as a prerequisite, such as Mobility and Spring Attack.)
Keeping track of where your bonus skill points are spent is
more onerous, and likely less significant to play. If most of
your skills are maxed out (that is, their rank equals your level
+3, or half that for a cross-class skill), it’s probably easiest
simply to designate one skill as the repository for all your
bonus skill points.
For ease of play, some DMs ignore this side effect, but
doing so represents a clear benefit granted to humans. Be aware
that players of nonhuman characters may resent this “freebie.”
*The question and answer uses “polymorph” to refer
specifically to spells that rely on the polymorph or alter self
spell to adjudicate their effect (including alter self, polymorph,
polymorph any object, and shapechange), psionic powers based
on the metamorphosis power (including metamorphosis and
greater metamorphosis), and any other effect based on either of
these lists.

Not to mention that your defintion of "bonus feat" is moot:

they still do not fit the requirements of a 'bonus feat'.

1. It says extra, not bonus.

2. It is a feat that they get to choose, despite the fact that Bonus feats clearly state that it can NOT be changed, all members of the race must have the same feat.

3. You need to meet the pre-reqs for your extra feat, while you don't need to do this for a racial bonus feats.

4. Other books use that same notation (superscript B), besides the Monster Manual. But the Human race does not list it.
By your reasoning a fighter's bonus feat is not a bonus feat at all:

Bonus Feats

At 1st level, a fighter gets a bonus combat-oriented feat in addition to the feat that any 1st-level character gets and the bonus feat granted to a human character. The fighter gains an additional bonus feat at 2nd level and every two fighter levels thereafter (4th, 6th, 8th, 10th, 12th, 14th, 16th, 18th, and 20th). These bonus feats must be drawn from the feats noted as fighter bonus feats. A fighter must still meet all prerequisites for a bonus feat, including ability score and base attack bonus minimums.

These bonus feats are in addition to the feat that a character of any class gets from advancing levels. A fighter is not limited to the list of fighter bonus feats when choosing these feats.
Olorin_
03-28-07, 03:02 PM So claiming that using Alter Self (2nd level) spell to get ANY feat (not just a fighter feat), plus disguise you and other stuff is kind of silly.

Tarkin's thoughts are right,but if the faq says the opposite then he's wrong:D.

Also note, there is a 2nd level spell out there that grants you any fighter bonus feat for a short duration. I forgot it's name. But among other things, you must qualify for it (no taking Whirlwind if you don't have Spring Attack.)

The name is Heroics and the duration is only 10minutes/lvl and range of touch,i want something persistent...

I think there is a monster which has power attack as a bonus feat. Can't remember which one though.

Than would be even better if it has natural armor bonus :D.Someone knows who's that monster???
Zherog
03-28-07, 05:21 PM First, did you check the actual Monster Manual, as opposed to just looking in the SRD? Several creatures in the MM are not in the SRD (Beholder for example).

So, then... tell me what page of the Monster Manual has stats for a human?

And I'll be clear: I never said this proposed use of alter self works; I just said humans aren't in the MM.
enlightened
04-02-07, 02:17 AM As gut-wrenching as it is, the evidence does point toward Alter Self being able to grant a feat.

But as a DM, I would say that it can only give a feat that can be taken at first level. Because that is when humans have to choose their extra feat.

Otherwise, I could imagine high-level casters using a persisted Alter Self to change into a human with one of the magical crafting feats whenever they wanted to make something.
Archangel62
04-02-07, 06:41 AM Persistent Heroics works too...
runestar
04-02-07, 07:17 AM On a side note, it would seem that alter self into a human also gives you HD+3 "floating" skill points...

Oh the possibilities...:P

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Olorin_ 03-27-07, 09:22 PM	How a wiz5/incantatrix4 can get persistent power attack without getting the feat or prcs.Only with spells... I was thinking in persistent alter self,but i'd need some monster with power attack as racial feat. Thanks!!
runestar 03-27-07, 10:01 PM	Alter self into a human? You get the human bonus feat(which is a racial trait), which you can spend on any feat you like(assuming you meet the prereqs). Your stats suck though. May I know why a spellcaster wants power attack? :P
NoldorForce 03-27-07, 10:17 PM	May I know why a spellcaster wants power attack? :PFor reference, the reason Runestar is asking is because Power Attack has a maximum penalty/bonus equal to your BAB, and the BAB of a wizard without any gish PrCs is rather low. Heroics (SL 2) would work if you could apply the Reach Spell metamagic to it or otherwise enable a fixed range. It gives the touched target one fighter bonus feat that they qualify for.
Olorin_ 03-27-07, 10:24 PM	Very nice idea!!And by doing that my stats won't change right?Because alter self don't change stats,am i right?? hmm,but i wouldn't be abble to use the troglodite +6 Ac thing... May I know why a spellcaster wants power attack? Yeah,because i'll cast a lot of persistent buffs and fight when spells over. PS:A spell that gives you str bonus,like bull strenght or divine power would fit the prereqs for power attack???
runestar 03-27-07, 10:32 PM	Hmm...I never considered divine power...:embarrass If you could somehow have it cast on you(say via a ring of spell storing), you can then proceed to persist it. You effectively get full bab, which you can funnel into power attack. Persist wraithstrike, and polymorph into a 12-headed hydra or something...:eek: I think you are better off just burning a feat slot and picking up power attack...:cool:
Olorin_ 03-27-07, 10:46 PM	Hmm...I never considered divine power... If you could somehow have it cast on you(say via a ring of spell storing), you can then proceed to persist it. You effectively get full bab, which you can funnel into power attack. Persist wraithstrike, and polymorph into a 12-headed hydra or something... I think you are better off just burning a feat slot and picking up power attack... That's exactly what i'll do excpet for the hydra,i'll a thunderlance.but i don't have one feat remaining AND i would need str 13...please answer the questions in my last post.
runestar 03-27-07, 11:12 PM	I am not really sure about the whole "alter self human grants bonus feat" thing. I think it should work though... I think there is a monster which has power attack as a bonus feat. Can't remember which one though. PS:A spell that gives you str bonus,like bull strenght or divine power would fit the prereqs for power attack??? yes. But if power attack is granted as a bonus feat(not as a human), you need not meet the prereqs). So a human with 10 str and gloves of str+4 can take the power attack feat.
tarkin 03-28-07, 11:00 AM	No, it does not work (unless you House Rule). Alter self into a human? You get the human bonus feat(which is a racial trait), which you can spend on any feat you like(assuming you meet the prereqs). Your stats suck though. This is a Power Gamer HOUSE RULE. If you play by the actual rules, as printed by WoTC, Humans do NOT get a racial bonus feat. If you actually read the Monster Manual, you can see all racial bonus feats have a superscript "B" next to them. See Giant Ants for an example of a creature with a racial bonus feat (Track) Humans don't have this. Instead humans get "1 extra feat". I know it is hard to understand, but the difference between "1 extra feat" and a racial bonus feat is: An extra feat is any feat you choose to get, as opposed to something specific that the race MUST take. A Bonus feat is granted by Alter Self/Polymorph Self. Extra feats are not granted. You must have the pre-reqs for 'an extra feat', but you do NOT have to meat the pre-reqs for a Racial Bonus feat. You get the bonus feat even if you do not qualify. Feats The line gives the creature’s feats. A monster gains feats just as a character does. Sometimes a creature has one or more bonus feats, marked with a superscript B (B). Creatures often do not have the prerequisites for a bonus feat. If this is so, the creature can still use the feat. If you wish to customize the creature with new feats, you can reassign its other feats, but not its bonus feats. A creature cannot have a feat that is not a bonus feat unless it has the feat’s prerequisites.
Zherog 03-28-07, 11:20 AM	If you actually read the Monster Manual, you can see all racial bonus feats have a superscript "B" next to them. See Giant Ants for an example of a creature with a racial bonus feat (Track) Humans don't have this. Instead humans get "1 extra feat". That might be because humans aren't in the monster manual...
tarkin 03-28-07, 12:03 PM	First, did you check the actual Monster Manual, as opposed to just looking in the SRD? Several creatures in the MM are not in the SRD (Beholder for example). But even then, they still do not fit the requirements of a 'bonus feat'. 1. It says extra, not bonus. 2. It is a feat that they get to choose, despite the fact that Bonus feats clearly state that it can NOT be changed, all members of the race must have the same feat. 3. You need to meet the pre-reqs for your extra feat, while you don't need to do this for a racial bonus feats. 4. Other books use that same notation (superscript B), besides the Monster Manual. But the Human race does not list it.
Egres 03-28-07, 12:19 PM	No, it does not work (unless you House Rule). Even if it's not a bonus feat, it is still considered a racial trait.
tarkin 03-28-07, 01:18 PM	And that means didily. Alter Self does not grant all racial things. ... You acquire the physical qualities of the new form while retaining your own mind. Physical qualities include natural size, mundane movement capabilities (such as burrowing, climbing, walking, swimming, and flight with wings, to a maximum speed of 120 feet for flying or 60 feet for nonflying movement), natural armor bonus, natural weapons (such as claws, bite, and so on), racial skill bonuses, racial bonus feats, and any gross physical qualities (presence or absence of wings, number of extremities, and so forth). A body with extra limbs does not allow you to make more attacks (or more advantageous two-weapon attacks) than normal. ... Those are the only two places the words "racial" occures in Alter Self. This is not a racial skill bonus and not a racial bonus feat. Whatever other racial thing it is, Alter Self does not grant it. Neither does Polymorph Self. You need to use Shapechange to get the human racial extra feat. Also note, there is a 2nd level spell out there that grants you any fighter bonus feat for a short duration. I forgot it's name. But among other things, you must qualify for it (no taking Whirlwind if you don't have Spring Attack.) So claiming that using Alter Self (2nd level) spell to get ANY feat (not just a fighter feat), plus disguise you and other stuff is kind of silly.
Egres 03-28-07, 01:46 PM	This is not a racial skill bonus and not a racial bonus feat. From the FAQ 3.5: When my human uses polymorph* to take the form of another creature, he loses any extraordinary special attacks and qualities. Does this include his bonus feat and bonus skill points? If so, how do I figure out which feat and skill points are derived from his racial traits? A human’s bonus feat and bonus skill points—like most other racial traits—are considered extraordinary qualities, and thus are lost when the character would lose such abilities (including when polymorphed). This is a good reason to keep track of which feat is your human bonus feat, since it might have wide-reaching effects. (For instance, if Dodge was your bonus feat, you’d lose the benefits of any other feats that have Dodge as a prerequisite, such as Mobility and Spring Attack.) Keeping track of where your bonus skill points are spent is more onerous, and likely less significant to play. If most of your skills are maxed out (that is, their rank equals your level +3, or half that for a cross-class skill), it’s probably easiest simply to designate one skill as the repository for all your bonus skill points. For ease of play, some DMs ignore this side effect, but doing so represents a clear benefit granted to humans. Be aware that players of nonhuman characters may resent this “freebie.” *The question and answer uses “polymorph” to refer specifically to spells that rely on the polymorph or alter self spell to adjudicate their effect (including alter self, polymorph, polymorph any object, and shapechange), psionic powers based on the metamorphosis power (including metamorphosis and greater metamorphosis), and any other effect based on either of these lists. Not to mention that your defintion of "bonus feat" is moot: they still do not fit the requirements of a 'bonus feat'. 1. It says extra, not bonus. 2. It is a feat that they get to choose, despite the fact that Bonus feats clearly state that it can NOT be changed, all members of the race must have the same feat. 3. You need to meet the pre-reqs for your extra feat, while you don't need to do this for a racial bonus feats. 4. Other books use that same notation (superscript B), besides the Monster Manual. But the Human race does not list it. By your reasoning a fighter's bonus feat is not a bonus feat at all: Bonus Feats At 1st level, a fighter gets a bonus combat-oriented feat in addition to the feat that any 1st-level character gets and the bonus feat granted to a human character. The fighter gains an additional bonus feat at 2nd level and every two fighter levels thereafter (4th, 6th, 8th, 10th, 12th, 14th, 16th, 18th, and 20th). These bonus feats must be drawn from the feats noted as fighter bonus feats. A fighter must still meet all prerequisites for a bonus feat, including ability score and base attack bonus minimums. These bonus feats are in addition to the feat that a character of any class gets from advancing levels. A fighter is not limited to the list of fighter bonus feats when choosing these feats.
Olorin_ 03-28-07, 03:02 PM	So claiming that using Alter Self (2nd level) spell to get ANY feat (not just a fighter feat), plus disguise you and other stuff is kind of silly. Tarkin's thoughts are right,but if the faq says the opposite then he's wrong:D. Also note, there is a 2nd level spell out there that grants you any fighter bonus feat for a short duration. I forgot it's name. But among other things, you must qualify for it (no taking Whirlwind if you don't have Spring Attack.) The name is Heroics and the duration is only 10minutes/lvl and range of touch,i want something persistent... I think there is a monster which has power attack as a bonus feat. Can't remember which one though. Than would be even better if it has natural armor bonus :D.Someone knows who's that monster???
Zherog 03-28-07, 05:21 PM	First, did you check the actual Monster Manual, as opposed to just looking in the SRD? Several creatures in the MM are not in the SRD (Beholder for example). So, then... tell me what page of the Monster Manual has stats for a human? And I'll be clear: I never said this proposed use of alter self works; I just said humans aren't in the MM.
enlightened 04-02-07, 02:17 AM	As gut-wrenching as it is, the evidence does point toward Alter Self being able to grant a feat. But as a DM, I would say that it can only give a feat that can be taken at first level. Because that is when humans have to choose their extra feat. Otherwise, I could imagine high-level casters using a persisted Alter Self to change into a human with one of the magical crafting feats whenever they wanted to make something.
Archangel62 04-02-07, 06:41 AM	Persistent Heroics works too...
runestar 04-02-07, 07:17 AM	On a side note, it would seem that alter self into a human also gives you HD+3 "floating" skill points... Oh the possibilities...:P