Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Ogg 04-18-07, 02:45 PM	Can anyone please link the thread(s) for Power Attack multiple clarifications please? Example. Power Attack 1:1, 2 handed 1:2, Leap Attack 2 handed 1:3, favored Power Attack Leap attack 1:4?
Nephlite 04-18-07, 03:00 PM	Can anyone please link the thread(s) for Power Attack multiple clarifications please? Example. Power Attack 1:1, 2 handed 1:2, Leap Attack 2 handed 1:3, favored Power Attack Leap attack 1:4? Um no. Check the errata. 100% of the bonus. PA 1 handed 1:1 Pa 2 handed: 2:1 Pa Leap attack 1 handed: 2:1 (1+1=2) PA Leap attk 2 handed: 4:1 (2+2=4) As 100% + the number is that number = itself. I've never read Favored so I can't answer that.
Ogg 04-18-07, 03:11 PM	It works the same as leap attack. I think I understand it. Your BA is +9 (1 Ranger 8th level fighter for simplicity) You Power Attack for -9 with a 2H sword. You sucessfully leap 10' using Leap Attack & your attacking your favored enemy Undead using Favored Power Attack. Your damage is: 9(base PA) +9 (2H weapon) + 9 (Leap Attack) +9 (Favored Power Attack) = +36 + of course any other bonus. No? (Feats Taken:1=Power Attack, 6=Leap Attack, 9=Favored Power Attack)
Nephlite 04-18-07, 03:19 PM	It works the same as leap attack. I think I understand it. Your BA is +9 (1 Ranger 8th level fighter for simplicity) You Power Attack for -9 with a 2H sword. You sucessfully leap 10' using Leap Attack & your attacking your favored enemy Undead using Favored Power Attack. Your damage is: 9(base PA) +9 (2H weapon) + 9 (Leap Attack) +9 (Favored Power Attack) = +36 + of course any other bonus. No? (Feats Taken:1=Power Attack, 6=Leap Attack, 9=Favored Power Attack) If it does yeah. But I'm not sure going full PA is a good idea' you might miss. But if it hits, the enemy will be hurting alot.
Nathreet 04-18-07, 03:39 PM	Um no. Check the errata. 100% of the bonus. PA 1 handed 1:1 Pa 2 handed: 2:1 Pa Leap attack 1 handed: 2:1 (1+1=2) PA Leap attk 2 handed: 4:1 (2+2=4) As 100% + the number is that number = itself. I've never read Favored so I can't answer that. As a general rule in D&D, doubling a double makes a triple not a quadruple. Is this a specific exception?
Terraneaux 04-18-07, 03:47 PM	Its not an exception-he was doing it wrong. The complete warrior errata has something to say about this. It references the FB's supreme power attack ability, but it works the same way.
Gamili 04-18-07, 03:56 PM	Complete Adventurer Errata: If you cover at least 10 feet of horizontal distance with your jump, and you end your jump in a square from which you threaten your target, you deal +100% the normal bonus damage from your use of the Power Attack feat. That said, Leap-Power Attack at -5 with a Greatsword gives 20 extra damage.
Ogg 04-18-07, 04:15 PM	I think it should be +15 not +20. You basically are adding +100% of the amount you subtract for each type of bonus. You don't add in or mutliply the bonus for using it 2 handed before doubling, you just add it after. If that makes sense. So -5,= +5 Power Attack +5 2-Handed, +5 Leap Attack
NoldorForce 04-18-07, 05:18 PM	Power Attacking with a two-handed weapon does not double the damage for one-handed weapons, but instead uses a different attack/damage ratio. Thus Leap Attacking at -5 with a two-hander gives +20 damage, or +10 damage above the normal +10 damage from THF Power Attacking.Benefit: On your action, before making attack rolls for a round, you may choose to subtract a number from all melee attack rolls and add the same number to all melee damage rolls. This number may not exceed your base attack bonus. The penalty on attacks and bonus on damage apply until your next turn. Special: If you attack with a two-handed weapon, or with a one-handed weapon wielded in two hands, instead add twice the number subtracted from your attack rolls.And keep in mind as well that additive percentages are not the same as multipliers; otherwise WotC would not have bothered to make such a distinction when applying errata to Complete Warrior and Complete Adventurer.
Tony Vargas 04-18-07, 06:11 PM	This is one of those things that won't go away. The original text of leap attack made sense, for instance, if you assumed it was a summary, and that a two handed power attack did double the bonus damage of a one-handed, and that leap attack also simply doubled damage. You'd get a one handed leap attack doubling damage and a two-handed one trippling. Power Attack, however, is not phrased that way. So, you got people interpreting the x3 in the original leap attack as a different mutiplier, on it's own, and the 2:1 power attack ratio as not a multiplier, so you ended up with a 6:1 ratio. Post-errata, even the greedier types generally agree on a 4:1 on the +100% language of teh errata. IMHO, the best solution, though, is to take Leap Attack as a simple doubling of power attack damage, and change Power Attack to double it's bonus when two-handed, instead of giving it the odd doubled-ratio-that-is-not-a-multiplier. The result: Power Attack: +1 per -1 Two handed power attack: x2 PA bonus damage. Leap Attack: x2 PA bonus damage Two-handed Leap Attack: x2 x2 = x3 PA bonus damage. Same goes for any other feat/ability/whatever that improves power attack damage, simply ignore any verbal contortions involving two handed power attacks and treat as a simple multiplier.
Shwepie 04-19-07, 03:45 AM	This is one of those things that won't go away. The original text of leap attack made sense, for instance, if you assumed it was a summary, and that a two handed power attack did double the bonus damage of a one-handed, and that leap attack also simply doubled damage. You'd get a one handed leap attack doubling damage and a two-handed one trippling. Power Attack, however, is not phrased that way. So, you got people interpreting the x3 in the original leap attack as a different mutiplier, on it's own, and the 2:1 power attack ratio as not a multiplier, so you ended up with a 6:1 ratio. Post-errata, even the greedier types generally agree on a 4:1 on the +100% language of teh errata. IMHO, the best solution, though, is to take Leap Attack as a simple doubling of power attack damage, and change Power Attack to double it's bonus when two-handed, instead of giving it the odd doubled-ratio-that-is-not-a-multiplier. The result: Power Attack: +1 per -1 Two handed power attack: x2 PA bonus damage. Leap Attack: x2 PA bonus damage Two-handed Leap Attack: x2 x2 = x3 PA bonus damage. Same goes for any other feat/ability/whatever that improves power attack damage, simply ignore any verbal contortions involving two handed power attacks and treat as a simple multiplier. I have to disagree, even with the original wording of Leap Attack/Supreme Power Attack you would still end up with x4. If you considered wielding two handed to be a x2 multiplier which is what the original wording seemed to suggest. So 5x(2+(3-1)+(3-1))=30, but at that point you are chopping down your friends.
Drax Hoak 04-19-07, 02:52 PM	Leap Attack does +20 damage on a -5 to hit power attack. It's spelled out explicitly in the errata for Supreme Power Attack in the Complete Warrior. The Leap Attack errata is worded the same, so it is applied the same. The doubling a double rule does not apply, because according to the specific wording of Power Attack and the specific wording of Leap Attack, you are adding 100% of a 2-to-1 ratio, not doubling a double.
NoldorForce 04-19-07, 06:10 PM	The doubling a double rule does not apply, because according to the specific wording of Power Attack and the specific wording of Leap Attack, you are adding 100% of a 2-to-1 ratio, not doubling a double.Like I said, multipliers are different from additive percentages.
Flan 04-19-07, 06:55 PM	Can anyone please link the thread(s) for Power Attack multiple clarifications please? Example. Power Attack 1:1, 2 handed 1:2, Leap Attack 2 handed 1:3, favored Power Attack Leap attack 1:4? The errata is: Page 110: Leap Attack The second sentence of the Benefit paragraph should read as follows: If you cover at least 10 feet of horizontal distance with your jump, and you end your jump in a square from which you threaten your target, you deal +100% the normal bonus damage from your use of the Power Attack feat. PA 1-H: 1:1 PA 2-H: 1:2 PA 2-H + LA: 1:2+2 = 1:4 PA 2-H + LA + FPA: 1:3+3 = 1:6 although it could be argued that they won't stack with each other but the wording of the two feats make it seems like they would You may end up with 1:5 though... 1:3 from FPA and 1:2 from LA.
Thale 04-19-07, 07:26 PM	I don't understand why there is so much confusion on this issue. The text is pretty clear. Power Attack says all your attacks for the round gain a bonus to damage equal to the penalty you take on your attack roll (up to your BAB). Example: -5 to attack yields +5 to damage If you have a two-handed weapon, you deal twice this damage. Example: -5 to attack yields +10 to damage Leap Attack specifically says (including errata) that you add 100% (i.e. doubling) of your Power Attack damage on a successful 10' jump and with a one-handed weapon. (How the errata text differs from the original I don't understand. It seems equivalent to me.) Example: -5 to attack yields +10 to damage Leap Attack with a two-handed weapon TRIPLES your Power Attack damage. Example: -5 to attack yields +30 to damage Adding Favored Power Attack into the mix doubles your Power Attack damage against favored enemies (-5 to attack yields +10 to damage) with a one-handed weapon, and triples the damage with a two-handed weapon (-5 to attack yields +15 to damage). Combining with Leap Attack results in adding multipliers the D&D way: two doubles is a triple for a one-handed weapon, and two triples is a quadruple for a two-handed weapon. Please note that none of the text for any of these feats describes things in terms of ratios. It's helpful if you abandon such terminology and think of things as the text states: in terms of multipliers. If it makes a difference to anyone, I spoke to Customer Service about a month ago and confirmed my understanding of how these same feats stack.
Nephlite 04-19-07, 08:07 PM	I don't understand why there is so much confusion on this issue. The text is pretty clear. Power Attack says all your attacks for the round gain a bonus to damage equal to the penalty you take on your attack roll (up to your BAB). Example: -5 to attack yields +5 to damage If you have a two-handed weapon, you deal twice this damage. Example: -5 to attack yields +10 to damage Leap Attack specifically says (including errata) that you add 100% (i.e. doubling) of your Power Attack damage on a successful 10' jump and with a one-handed weapon. (How the errata text differs from the original I don't understand. It seems equivalent to me.) Example: -5 to attack yields +10 to damage Leap Attack with a two-handed weapon TRIPLES your Power Attack damage. Example: -5 to attack yields +30 to damage Dude, not x6, x4. -5 x2=+10. +100% =+10 so +20. Where did you get +30? Adding Favored Power Attack into the mix doubles your Power Attack damage against favored enemies (-5 to attack yields +10 to damage) with a one-handed weapon, and triples the damage with a two-handed weapon (-5 to attack yields +15 to damage). Combining with Leap Attack results in adding multipliers the D&D way: two doubles is a triple for a one-handed weapon, and two triples is a quadruple for a two-handed weapon. Please note that none of the text for any of these feats describes things in terms of ratios. It's helpful if you abandon such terminology and think of things as the text states: in terms of multipliers. If it makes a difference to anyone, I spoke to Customer Service about a month ago and confirmed my understanding of how these same feats stack. Favored is another +100% so +30. So you get 1:6 withthem all.
Aminvelos 04-19-07, 09:22 PM	I'm still confused over it, does anyone have a link to the errata? I mean the first time I read it, I thought oh PA: 1:1 x double = 2:1 ratio PA: 2:1 triple = 6:1 ratio Then I figured they had already put in the multiplier meaning. PA: 1:1 + 1 = 2:1 PA: 2:1 + 1 = 3:1 Now you guys are saying on erra its PA: 1:1 x2 = 2:1 PA: 2:1 x2= 4:1
Thale 04-20-07, 02:49 AM	Dude, not x6, x4. -5 x2=+10. +100% =+10 so +20. Where did you get +30? For a two-handed weapon, Power Attack gives you twice your attack penalty (-5 to attack gives you +10 to damage). Leap Attack TRIPLES the damage from a two-handed Power Attack (-5 penalty to attack is +10 damage, x3 with Leap Attack = +30 points of damage). The +100% is only for a 1-handed weapon. The errata does not apply to the part about two-handed weapons. Favored is another +100% so +30. So you get 1:6 withthem all. Favored is +100% (or double Power Attack damage) with a 1-handed weapon. It is triple damage with a two-handed weapon. Favored Power Attack and Leap Attack is two triples, which equals quadruple damage.
Flan 04-20-07, 12:05 PM	The +100% is only for a 1-handed weapon. The errata does not apply to the part about two-handed weapons. If it didn't then the errata doesn't change anything, so it's pretty clear it does. PA 1-H: 1:1 PA 2-H: 1:2 PA 2-H + LA: 1:4 PA 2-H + LA + FPA: 1:6 PA 2-H + LA + FPA + SPA + SC + lance + Rhino's Rush: 1:(3+3+3)*(3+1) = 1:36 damage. Still better off with a wizard who is shapechanged into an astral titan with gated solars and adamantium golems.
WHW4 04-20-07, 12:25 PM	It's really easy. I think most people over analyze the feat. You look at the errata. +100% the normal bonus damage from your use of the Power Attack feat. So just figure out how much bonus damage you're getting. "I LA/PA while holding my longsword and shield. I PA for 5. I get 5 extra damage from PA. Since I'm also using LA, I get 10 bonus damage." +100% of the number five equals ten. It's obviously better for two-handed users. "I LA/PA with my big bad greatsword. I PA for 5. I get a 10 extra damage from PA. Since I'm also using LA, I get 20 bonus damage." +100% of the number ten equals twenty.
Tony Vargas 04-20-07, 12:43 PM	I'm still confused over it, does anyone have a link to the errata? I mean the first time I read it, I thought oh PA: 1:1 x double = 2:1 ratio PA: 2:1 triple = 6:1 ratioA common and understandible mistake. Then I figured they had already put in the multiplier meaning. PA: 1:1 + 1 = 2:1 PA: 2:1 + 1 = 3:1Quite possibly the original intent, and certainly the most conservative way to run it. Now you guys are saying on erra its PA: 1:1 x2 = 2:1 PA: 2:1 x2= 4:1That's the net effect, but, the way that Power Attack and the errata are phrased there are actually no multiples involved, at all. A two handed PA is a 2:1, not a 1:1 x2. The two are identical, of course, until you layer on a multipler, it's just a matter of phrasing. In addition, the errata changes Leap Attack from an ambiguous multiplier to a "+100%" - also not a multiplier, though also identical, mathematically, to a x2 D&D multiplier. Combine those two, and you have a gain of 100% of the 2:1 power attack damage, or 4:1. Since niether is a multiplier, that full amount is then subject to any multipliers you do get, such as criticals, resulting in some potentially astronomical damage.
jaelis 04-20-07, 12:59 PM	Wouldn't it be great if they actually fixed this in the Rules Compendium? ("Fixed" as in "made it clear without needing to carefully read two errata and assume that they are using their language consistently.") Heck, they could clarify how it works with mounts while they're at it!
Thale 04-22-07, 07:25 PM	If it didn't then the errata doesn't change anything, so it's pretty clear it does. The errata says specifically "The second sentence of the Benefit paragraph should read as follows". It does not say the whole description is supplanted by what is stated in the errata. The whole "+100%" thing DOES NOT APPLY to Leap Attack with a 2-handed weapon. This is still governed by the original description, which says that Leap Attack with a two-handed weapon grants three times the damage bonus from a Power Attack. In other words, -5 to attack yields +10 to damage with Power Attack, x3 for Leap Attack yields +30 points of damage. You're right: the errata didn't change anything. Its intent was to clear up potentially vague language. There is no real difference in effect. If WotC wanted to replace the whole section with the +100% rule, they would not have explicitly stated that it applies only to the "second sentence." I feel like the rules are fairly clear on this issue.
ScipioX 04-22-07, 10:55 PM	I feel like the rules are fairly clear on this issue. Considering the amount of discussion on the issue, it seems obvious that it's not that clear at all. It's an even funnier statement because your clear understanding is in fact incorrect. In other words, when using the Power Attack feat, a frenzied berserker wielding a two-handed weapon gains a +4 bonus on damage rolls (instead of a +2 bonus) for each –1 penalty she applies to her attack rolls. Since supreme power attack and leap attack use the same language, they interact the same way with power attack. Thus a leap attack with a 2 handed weapon does 4:1. A leap attacking 2 hander with supreme power attack would do 6:1.
Flan 04-23-07, 02:09 AM	I feel like the rules are fairly clear on this issue. So do I, and we disagree on what that rule is. Ask the sage.
ibayboy 04-23-07, 03:27 AM	PA 1-H: 1:1 PA 2-H: 1:2 PA 2-H + LA: 1:4 PA 2-H + LA + FPA: 1:6 PA 2-H + LA + FPA + SPA + SC + lance + Rhino's Rush: 1:(3+3+3)*(3+1) = 1:36 damage. The look on the BBEG/DM's face if you pull it off....priceless.:D
Thale 04-23-07, 03:52 PM	Considering the amount of discussion on the issue, it seems obvious that it's not that clear at all. It's an even funnier statement because your clear understanding is in fact incorrect. Since supreme power attack and leap attack use the same language, they interact the same way with power attack. Thus a leap attack with a 2 handed weapon does 4:1. A leap attacking 2 hander with supreme power attack would do 6:1. I'm not sure what Supreme Power Attack has to do with any of this. The original question had to do with how Power Attack stacked with Leap Attack (plus Favored Power Attack). The language from Leap Attack says your damage from Power Attack is tripled if using a 2-handed weapon. I don't see any other way to interpret this other than by saying that a 5-point Power Attack gives you +10 to damage, then tripled with Leap Attack is +30 points of damage. If you Leap Attack/Power Attack with a 1-handed weapon, you subtract 5 from your attack to give you +5 to damage, x2 for Leap Attack is +10 points. As I stated in one of my earlier posts to this thread, I ran through all this on the phone with Customer Service 1-2 months ago and this is the same result they came up with. Of course, I'm not saying Customer Service is infallible, but I'd prefer to listen to them instead of random people. I'd recommend calling them yourself if you'd prefer to hear it firsthand. Or ask the Sage. I would also be interested in reading his reply.
Kilawpilath 04-25-07, 10:35 PM	I just want to check to make sure I understand this all properly. If I have a Level 6 Barbarian, Level 6 Psychic Warrior, Level 10 Frenzied Berserker. I use Leap Attack with a Great Axe While Supreme Power attacking at level 22 And I use -16 I'd get 96 Damage (6:1) Extra before I roll Damage dice? What would happen if I critical hit? Would it then be +96 x3 = 288? Just trying to make sure I get this cleared in my head incase I ever get to use this situation.
1hitparry 04-26-07, 01:21 AM	The errata says specifically "The second sentence of the Benefit paragraph should read as follows". It does not say the whole description is supplanted by what is stated in the errata. The whole "+100%" thing DOES NOT APPLY to Leap Attack with a 2-handed weapon. I don't know where you got that from, because that's no where in the errata. It just say blah blah blah "deal +100% the normal bonus damage from your use of Power Attack Feat." It does not say "this +100% does not apply to two handed weapons." If you were going by the book, I could see how triple might mean 1:6 ratio, but with the errata it's pretty clear to me.
Thale 04-26-07, 01:51 PM	I don't know where you got that from, because that's no where in the errata. It just say blah blah blah "deal +100% the normal bonus damage from your use of Power Attack Feat." It does not say "this +100% does not apply to two handed weapons." If you were going by the book, I could see how triple might mean 1:6 ratio, but with the errata it's pretty clear to me. It is in the Complete Adventurer errata, the third entry from the bottom, with the large bold heading that reads "Page 110: Leap Attack". The very first sentence under this heading reads "The second sentence of the Benefit paragraph should read as follows". The Complete Adventurer errata is only 1 page. I'm not sure how you could have missed it. Perhaps it was the "blah blah blah" that you glossed over.
NoldorForce 04-26-07, 02:01 PM	People have generally considered the errata to be erroneous itself by not removing the full text on multipliers. It's certainly the intent of the errata to do so.
Thale 04-26-07, 02:28 PM	People have generally considered the errata to be erroneous itself by not removing the full text on multipliers. It's certainly the intent of the errata to do so. I'm not sure how you can gauge the "intent" of the errata to do one thing or another. There are plenty of feats and class abilities that indicate the opposite of what you're saying. Power Attack, Favored Power Attack, and Supreme Power Attack all grant extra multipliers for using two-handed weapons. It stands to reason that Leap Attack would be the same. Leaving the intent of the rules aside, if you are playing by the rules as written, then Leap Attack triples your Power Attack damage for a two-handed weapon. Of course, if you feel Leap Attack is too powerful, you are free to house rule it any way you see fit for your own game. Personally, I would leave it as is. It's really no wonder that people complain about the melee classes when everyone is nerfing one of their best feats for no real reason. But that's a discussion for another day (and another thread).
NoldorForce 04-26-07, 02:41 PM	As the errata did in fact remove the multiplier (instead giving an additive percentage) on one-handed weapons, it seems likely that it was the intent to remove the multipliers in general. Additionally, none of the things listed there actually give out multipliers. Two-handed Power Attack instead uses a different attack/damage ratio than that given for one-handed weapons. Favored Power Attack changes the ratios on both effects. Supreme Power Attack (as reflected by the Complete Warrior errata) gives out an additive percentage. In general, removing the multipliers can often make the effects more powerful in the right hands. There are various effects (including critical hits) which add a multiplier to damage. If Leap Attack is treated as a x3 multiplier on THF damage, then the damage ratio is 1:6. That changes to 1:10 when using Spirited Charge, as you have two multipliers interacting. But if it is instead treated as a +100% additive multiplier, then the damage ratio starts at 1:4 but increases to 1:12.
Thale 04-26-07, 03:10 PM	As the errata did in fact remove the multiplier (instead giving an additive percentage) on one-handed weapons, it seems likely that it was the intent to remove the multipliers in general. Again, I think it's impossible to gauge the intent of the text. If they meant to alter the entirety of the original text, why did they precede the errata with a phrase that explicitly referred to one sentence only? It's easy to argue both ways, and until a meta-errata document comes out, the RAW are clear. Supreme Power Attack (as reflected by the Complete Warrior errata) gives out an additive percentage. Actually, I was unfamiliar with the errata for Supreme Power Attack until just now. Having read it, I can see why one would infer the correction for 2-handed weapons in the Leap Attack errata, but the text still says nothing explicitly. Again, unless they publish some document to alter the meaning of the text, tripling your Power Attack damage with a 2-handed weapon on a Leap Attack is the RAW. In general, removing the multipliers can often make the effects more powerful in the right hands. There are various effects (including critical hits) which add a multiplier to damage. If Leap Attack is treated as a x3 multiplier on THF damage, then the damage ratio is 1:6. That changes to 1:10 when using Spirited Charge, as you have two multipliers interacting. But if it is instead treated as a +100% additive multiplier, then the damage ratio starts at 1:4 but increases to 1:12. This is an interesting point, though I'm inclined to still think of them as multipliers. Please correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm fairly certain that none of the text for all these feats and class abilities ever uses the word "ratio" to describe how extra damage is calculated. Until the errata, they all used words like "double", "twice" and "triple", which is more indicative of a multiplier than a ratio. Mathematically, they might be the same when taken individually, but the difference is apparent when these items start stacking, as you ably demonstrated. I would argue against the use of ratios in these calculations simply because WotC avoids them in their descriptions (again, correct me if I'm wrong).
1hitparry 04-26-07, 05:01 PM	I goofed. :P
olala88 07-06-07, 12:33 PM	The look on the BBEG/DM's face if you pull it off....priceless.:D seff