Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Darculius 06-23-07, 02:05 PM	prolly been brought up before, but I'd like a small clarification of the rules for multiplying multipliers. Power Attack states that if I beat down with a 2 hander I add twice the number subtracted for damage. Leap Attack states that if I use a 2 hander I multiply bonus damage of Power Attack x3. example: BAB of 5. Full power. Using a 2 hander brings my bonus damage to 10 for Power Attack. My question is here, does Leap Attack bring it to 30? (x3) or 20? There's a bit in the PHB on multiplying, page 304.
BugHunter 06-23-07, 06:01 PM	example: BAB of 5. Full power. Using a 2 hander brings my bonus damage to 10 for Power Attack. My question is here, does Leap Attack bring it to 30? (x3) or 20? There's a bit in the PHB on multiplying, page 304. No using Leap Attack with a two-hander brings your Power Attack damage to 15. The Leap Attack's x3 is instead of Power Attack's x2 extra damage.
Twylyght 06-23-07, 07:34 PM	BugHunters got it, it replaces the normal 2x for a two hander, with a 3x bonus.
kalstrand 06-23-07, 08:07 PM	Actually the errata changes Leap Attack to +100% normal damage. So in the example above the ratio changes to 4:1 and gives a total of 20 damage.
BugHunter 06-23-07, 09:12 PM	Actually the errata changes Leap Attack to +100% normal damage. So in the example above the ratio changes to 4:1 and gives a total of 20 damage. The errata doesn't change the third sentence of the Benefit paragraph it only changes the second. They made a mistake in giving a one-handed weapon x2 damage or +200% damage.
risner 06-24-07, 10:13 AM	prolly been brought up before, but I'd like a small clarification of the rules for multiplying multipliers. Power Attack states that if I beat down with a 2 hander I add twice the number subtracted for damage. Leap Attack states that if I use a 2 hander I multiply bonus damage of Power Attack x3. example: BAB of 5. Full power. Using a 2 hander brings my bonus damage to 10 for Power Attack. My question is here, does Leap Attack bring it to 30? (x3) or 20? There's a bit in the PHB on multiplying, page 304. Leap = x3, check the errata, it spells it out plainly that you only add 100% or normal. Normal is -1 for +1. Two handed is -1 for +2. Two Handed Leap is -1 for +2+1 = -1 for +3 So -5 for +15, not +20 and clearly not +30.
ibayboy 06-24-07, 04:04 PM	Supreme Power Attack: A 10th-level frenzied berserker deals +100% the normal damage from her use of the Power Attack feat. In other words, when using the Power Attack feat, a frenzied berserker wielding a two-handed weapon gains a +4 bonus on damage rolls (instead of a +2 bonus) for each –1 penalty she applies to her attack rolls. Maybe this will help. It is a different ability, but is the exact same mechanic, and gives an example. Answer: +20
Darculius 06-26-07, 08:31 AM	thanks guys. I'm going to go with Ibay's cause it makes the most sense. I did realize that the example I gave wouldn't make it 30 (way too overpowered), but Leap attack does say x3 for a two-hander. Errata fixed this, sayin +100%. so Power attk gives +2 with a 2hand, 100% of 2 makes it 4 so for the example:20 dmg.
RobbyPants 06-26-07, 08:58 AM	The only thing I hate about that feat is the confusing "+100%" wording. They could have solved a lot of problems and arguing by wording it like momentum swing from Combat Brute. In case anyone cares, I've always interpreted it as a 3:1 ratio for two-handers.
risner 06-26-07, 11:41 AM	In case anyone cares, I've always interpreted it as a 3:1 ratio for two-handers. Same here.
Twylyght 06-26-07, 04:45 PM	Well you can look at it this way too, back to the old multiple multiplier logic. Normal power attack. 100% Two handed weapon. +100% Leap attack............ +100% Grand Total.............. 300% 3 to 1 ratio. Even if worded funny, the two-hand and leap attack effects are both a x2 multiplier of the base power attack bonus, and thus you get a tripple by standard multiple multipliers rules. The CW errata for frenzied bezerkers is one of those cases where they made things worse, double so if you notice the errata removed the clause that power attack class features dont stack.... so one could argue they are actually now getting a +150% bonus.... which still would not be a 4 to 1 trade. Sometimes the errata needs errata. regardless the text still reads +100% of the original power attack damage, which is equal to the power attack penalty. Two handed weapons, leap attack, frenzied bezerker abilities, all target that number. That being said, supreme power attack should be a +200%, and improved power attack a +100% (or if improved and supreme are stacking, both should be +100). Frenzied bezerker, two-hander, leap attack would be Penalty 100% Two hand +100% Leap attack +100% Spreme PA +200% Total 500% otherwise youd get 800% (100% x2, x2, x2) and thats a little nutty
Frugal 06-26-07, 10:07 PM	regardless the text still reads +100% of the original power attack damage, which is equal to the power attack penalty. Actually, it says +100% of normal power attack damage, and a pretty strong case can be made for the normal power attack damage for a 2-hander being 2:1, especially with the supreme power attack errata using the exact same wording and including an example that confirms it's 4:1 pay-off.
Vash_HS 06-26-07, 10:25 PM	Well you can look at it this way too, back to the old multiple multiplier logic. Normal power attack. 100% Two handed weapon. +100% Leap attack............ +100% Grand Total.............. 300% 3 to 1 ratio. Even if worded funny, the two-hand and leap attack effects are both a x2 multiplier of the base power attack bonus, and thus you get a tripple by standard multiple multipliers rules. The CW errata for frenzied bezerkers is one of those cases where they made things worse, double so if you notice the errata removed the clause that power attack class features dont stack.... so one could argue they are actually now getting a +150% bonus.... which still would not be a 4 to 1 trade. Sometimes the errata needs errata. regardless the text still reads +100% of the original power attack damage, which is equal to the power attack penalty. Two handed weapons, leap attack, frenzied bezerker abilities, all target that number. That being said, supreme power attack should be a +200%, and improved power attack a +100% (or if improved and supreme are stacking, both should be +100). Frenzied bezerker, two-hander, leap attack would be Penalty 100% Two hand +100% Leap attack +100% Spreme PA +200% Total 500% otherwise youd get 800% (100% x2, x2, x2) and thats a little nutty That's insanely helpful. I'll have to remember that arithmetic next time I run into trouble with the multipliers.
ibayboy 06-27-07, 02:21 AM	Actually, it says +100% of normal power attack damage, and a pretty strong case can be made for the normal power attack damage for a 2-hander being 2:1, especially with the supreme power attack errata using the exact same wording and including an example that confirms it's 4:1 pay-off. I would of thought an example, showing clearly WotC's intent for the mechanic, would be enough to prove 4:1. But alas not for some.
Twylyght 06-27-07, 04:08 AM	I would of thought an example, showing clearly WotC's intent for the mechanic, would be enough to prove 4:1. But alas not for some. Its shows thier intent for Supreme Power Attack, to be 4:1. I think its somewhat harder to argue that the intent is that 2 feats is supposed to pay off the same as the 10th level ability in a PrC. And as early as 5th level. Actually, it says +100% of normal power attack damage, and a pretty strong case can be made for the normal power attack damage for a 2-hander being 2:1, especially with the supreme power attack errata using the exact same wording and including an example that confirms it's 4:1 pay-off. True it could be argued either way, but if you take the benefit text for power attack Benefit: On your action, before making attack rolls for a round, you may choose to subtract a number from all melee attack rolls and add the same number to all melee damage rolls. This number may not exceed your base attack bonus. The penalty on attacks and bonus on damage apply until your next turn. This is the normal effect of power attack. The two-handed text, follows the normal benefit text of the feat, in a seperate special text on the feat. Special: If you attack with a two-handed weapon, or with a one-handed weapon wielded in two hands, instead add twice the number subtracted from your attack rolls So one could also see this an addition to the normal effect.
Frugal 06-27-07, 10:31 AM	Its shows thier intent for Supreme Power Attack, to be 4:1. I think its somewhat harder to argue that the intent is that 2 feats is supposed to pay off the same as the 10th level ability in a PrC. And as early as 5th level. Except that the errata for both use the identical language, which I'd say makes a pretty darn good case. And it's the same benefit under very limited circumstances.
Twylyght 06-27-07, 04:17 PM	Except that the errata for both use the identical language, which I'd say makes a pretty darn good case. And it's the same benefit under very limited circumstances. Though if you really want to be technical about it, and comapre the erratas for the 2 abilities. There is no errata for leap attacking with two-handed weapons. At all. Page 110: Leap Attack The second sentence of the Benefit paragraph should read as follows: If you cover at least 10 feet of horizontal distance with your jump, and you end your jump in a square from which you threaten your target, you deal +100% the normal bonus damage from your use of the Power Attack feat. The second sentence is replaced with that text. The third sentence would remain unchanged, this sentence... If you use this tactic with a two-handed weapon, you instead triple the extra damage from Power Attack. So instead of doubling the the extra damage when power attacking with a two-handed weapon (2 for 1), you triple the extra damage from power attack, (3 for 1). Its not an addition or multiple or any other enhancement to the regular benefit of a two-handed power attack, it's instead of a normal two-handed power attack.
UndeadPenguin 06-28-07, 09:10 PM	What book are the supreme and improved power attack feats in?
BugHunter 06-28-07, 09:17 PM	What book are the supreme and improved power attack feats in? They are class features for the Frenzied Berserker (CW page 34).
UndeadPenguin 06-28-07, 09:20 PM	Excellent thank you.