Power Critical "confirmation" [Archive] - Wizards Community

Power Critical "confirmation" [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Nargath
06-16-07, 09:36 AM One of my players has a divergent reading of the Power Critical feat wording than I do.

Power Critical, for those who don't know, states that:
When using the weapon selected, you gain a +4 bonus on the roll to confirm a threat.

My player is adamant that this confirmation of a threat is actually the first roll you make, whereas I say that the confirmation of the threat is the second roll you make upon naturally rolling inside your weapon's crit range.

I have explained my reasoning for thinking of it this way:
the first roll is called an attack roll. Getting a threat on that is fine.
But you then roll again to CONFIRM that you successfully made the threat, hence it falling on the second roll. Confirm means that you make sure you get the crit. If confirming the crit was in the first roll, why would you then need to take another one to see if you actually get the crit or not?

He can see how it works in my favour, yet he still insists on his way of thinking:
I completely understand where you're going with that. While it does
make sense for your way, everything i've read has always referred to
the initial roll as the threat confirmation and the second roll as the
critical confirmation.

Saying it that way does then throw some doubt on to my definition of Power Critical.

So I turn to you WotC Board-ites, to try and work out:

Whether Power Critical affects the first or second roll of a crit.
And if the answer to 1 is the first roll, then where are the examples of where the first rol is called the threat confirmation roll, so I can brush up on my critical hits?

Thanks all!
runestar
06-16-07, 09:54 AM It affects the 2nd roll.

First you roll to hit. Power crit offers no benefit here. If you would hit (ie: your attack roll is higher than the opponent's AC, and the number rolled is within the threat range of your weapon), you roll again to see if you would crit. You merely score a threat. Note that this applies to a natural 20 as well.

Now, you need to confirm this threat. For this 2nd roll, if you hit again, you score a crit. If you miss on this 2nd roll, it is just a normal hit. This is where you apply the +4 to-hit bonus from power crit.

Here is the relevant passage from the PHB, under the "actions in combat" section.

Critical Hits

When you make an attack roll and get a natural 20 (the d20 shows 20), you hit regardless of your target’s Armor Class, and you have scored a threat. The hit might be a critical hit (or "crit"). To find out if it’s a critical hit, you immediately make a critical roll—another attack roll with all the same modifiers as the attack roll you just made. If the critical roll also results in a hit against the target’s AC, your original hit is a critical hit. (The critical roll just needs to hit to give you a crit. It doesn’t need to come up 20 again.) If the critical roll is a miss, then your hit is just a regular hit.

A critical hit means that you roll your damage more than once, with all your usual bonuses, and add the rolls together. Unless otherwise specified, the threat range for a critical hit on an attack roll is 20, and the multiplier is ×2.

Exception: Extra damage over and above a weapon’s normal damage is not multiplied when you score a critical hit.

Increased Threat Range

Sometimes your threat range is greater than 20. That is, you can score a threat on a lower number. In such cases, a roll of lower than 20 is not an automatic hit. Any attack roll that doesn’t result in a hit is not a threat.
Kouk
06-16-07, 10:51 AM Just the confirmation roll.

It is just to make sure your confirmation roll is high enough to hit the AC again. I'm sure people have rolled critical threat, and then their confirmation roll was like a 10 or something, thus failing to confirm. This makes the confirmation roll a 14, so maybe it would confirm. You can take the feat multiple times, so even on a roll of 10, now it could be 18 - your crits are quite a bit more likely to confirm with a second application of the feat.

If you can only hit on a 20, maybe the creature's AC is one or two higher than you normally could hit, and you otherwise would have no ways of confirming the crit (from the natural 20) then this would also be a use for it.
StevenO
06-16-07, 03:47 PM I'll echo the others here, it only applies to the second (confirmation) roll.

Applying it to the first roll has so many problem that it doesn't make sense there. Do I add it to my die roll thus giving me +4 to hit? No, ok then do I instead treat my natural die roll as being that much higher than it actually is to see if it is the crit range thus making it MUCH better than Improved Critical? No again. So how could it possibly apply to the first roll without being completely better than other feats out there? It can't.

Adding it to the second roll is so much easier because you already know you've hit. The extra +4 here doesn't do much except making sure your critical threat actually materializes into the solid hit you expect and can certainly help confirm threats that would require a very high roll to confirm.

The feat is best when using a weapon with an extreme crit range (17 or 18-20) that will generate more threats but also may generate threats on more questionable attacks. If you threaten on a 18+ but need a 16+ to actually hit you'll usually threaten when you do hit but confirming them needs some help.
tarkin
06-16-07, 04:13 PM I chime in to agree.

first roll is your attack roll. If you roll well enough you THREATEN to critical.

Second roll is your confirmation roll. All it does it see if you confirm the threatened critical.
royinator
06-16-07, 07:39 PM I jump in and say second roll as well, for the heck of it.
Einvaldurinn_mikli
06-16-07, 07:52 PM I jump in and say second roll as well, for the heck of it.

O, me too!
jaelis
06-16-07, 08:46 PM ... everything i've read has always referred to the initial roll as the threat confirmation and the second roll as the critical confirmation.

I can't recall ever having read anything like that, myself. The first roll is the attack roll, and the second roll is the confirmation.
Pentar
06-16-07, 08:53 PM You only ever roll a Confirmation dice if you threaten a crit. You cannot confirm something you're not threatening.

IN otherwords, like everyone else has said, the second roll.

Nice try by your player, though... to try to get a +4 bonus to attack... Clever.
risner
06-16-07, 08:58 PM First roll is the to hit roll.
If you hit the target's AC or you roll a 20, then you hit.
If on the first roll, you did hit and it is greater than the weapon's threat, then you roll a second roll.

Second roll is the crit confirmation roll.
If you miss here, you still do damage, but not critical damage.
If you hit here (with or without the +4 Power Critical), then you deal critical damage.
Gray Mouser
06-16-07, 09:25 PM Just to beat a dead horse, everyone above is correct. I deem it so. :D
Just out of curiousity, were you and s/he playing back in 3.0? The original version of Power Critical (in Masters of the Wild, I believe) allowed you, once per day, to declare an attack a threat without ever rolling the initial attack roll, just the confirmation. If your player could have ever read that Power Critical, it could explain the confusion.
Nargath
06-17-07, 01:57 AM Thanks to all for the response.
The player in question actually checked this board to see if there was any info about Power Critical, and found this thread :)

But upon reading everyone's comments, he is now following my suggestion!

And Gray Mouser, no he/we didn't play 3.0, we all started at the same time in 3.5.

Thanks again!
CaoSlayer
06-17-07, 02:43 PM it is a very nice feat in hands of someone with a vorpal weapon or energy burst ones.

Otherwise I favor weapon focus for a +1 to hit and confirmation of critical hits.
ShinAkuma2
06-17-07, 06:00 PM If the initial roll is the "threat confirmation", that would mean every hit is a threat, ie, a possible crit. Does that make any sense to your player?

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Nargath 06-16-07, 09:36 AM	One of my players has a divergent reading of the Power Critical feat wording than I do. Power Critical, for those who don't know, states that: When using the weapon selected, you gain a +4 bonus on the roll to confirm a threat. My player is adamant that this confirmation of a threat is actually the first roll you make, whereas I say that the confirmation of the threat is the second roll you make upon naturally rolling inside your weapon's crit range. I have explained my reasoning for thinking of it this way: the first roll is called an attack roll. Getting a threat on that is fine. But you then roll again to CONFIRM that you successfully made the threat, hence it falling on the second roll. Confirm means that you make sure you get the crit. If confirming the crit was in the first roll, why would you then need to take another one to see if you actually get the crit or not? He can see how it works in my favour, yet he still insists on his way of thinking: I completely understand where you're going with that. While it does make sense for your way, everything i've read has always referred to the initial roll as the threat confirmation and the second roll as the critical confirmation. Saying it that way does then throw some doubt on to my definition of Power Critical. So I turn to you WotC Board-ites, to try and work out: Whether Power Critical affects the first or second roll of a crit. And if the answer to 1 is the first roll, then where are the examples of where the first rol is called the threat confirmation roll, so I can brush up on my critical hits? Thanks all!
runestar 06-16-07, 09:54 AM	It affects the 2nd roll. First you roll to hit. Power crit offers no benefit here. If you would hit (ie: your attack roll is higher than the opponent's AC, and the number rolled is within the threat range of your weapon), you roll again to see if you would crit. You merely score a threat. Note that this applies to a natural 20 as well. Now, you need to confirm this threat. For this 2nd roll, if you hit again, you score a crit. If you miss on this 2nd roll, it is just a normal hit. This is where you apply the +4 to-hit bonus from power crit. Here is the relevant passage from the PHB, under the "actions in combat" section. Critical Hits When you make an attack roll and get a natural 20 (the d20 shows 20), you hit regardless of your target’s Armor Class, and you have scored a threat. The hit might be a critical hit (or "crit"). To find out if it’s a critical hit, you immediately make a critical roll—another attack roll with all the same modifiers as the attack roll you just made. If the critical roll also results in a hit against the target’s AC, your original hit is a critical hit. (The critical roll just needs to hit to give you a crit. It doesn’t need to come up 20 again.) If the critical roll is a miss, then your hit is just a regular hit. A critical hit means that you roll your damage more than once, with all your usual bonuses, and add the rolls together. Unless otherwise specified, the threat range for a critical hit on an attack roll is 20, and the multiplier is ×2. Exception: Extra damage over and above a weapon’s normal damage is not multiplied when you score a critical hit. Increased Threat Range Sometimes your threat range is greater than 20. That is, you can score a threat on a lower number. In such cases, a roll of lower than 20 is not an automatic hit. Any attack roll that doesn’t result in a hit is not a threat.
Kouk 06-16-07, 10:51 AM	Just the confirmation roll. It is just to make sure your confirmation roll is high enough to hit the AC again. I'm sure people have rolled critical threat, and then their confirmation roll was like a 10 or something, thus failing to confirm. This makes the confirmation roll a 14, so maybe it would confirm. You can take the feat multiple times, so even on a roll of 10, now it could be 18 - your crits are quite a bit more likely to confirm with a second application of the feat. If you can only hit on a 20, maybe the creature's AC is one or two higher than you normally could hit, and you otherwise would have no ways of confirming the crit (from the natural 20) then this would also be a use for it.
StevenO 06-16-07, 03:47 PM	I'll echo the others here, it only applies to the second (confirmation) roll. Applying it to the first roll has so many problem that it doesn't make sense there. Do I add it to my die roll thus giving me +4 to hit? No, ok then do I instead treat my natural die roll as being that much higher than it actually is to see if it is the crit range thus making it MUCH better than Improved Critical? No again. So how could it possibly apply to the first roll without being completely better than other feats out there? It can't. Adding it to the second roll is so much easier because you already know you've hit. The extra +4 here doesn't do much except making sure your critical threat actually materializes into the solid hit you expect and can certainly help confirm threats that would require a very high roll to confirm. The feat is best when using a weapon with an extreme crit range (17 or 18-20) that will generate more threats but also may generate threats on more questionable attacks. If you threaten on a 18+ but need a 16+ to actually hit you'll usually threaten when you do hit but confirming them needs some help.
tarkin 06-16-07, 04:13 PM	I chime in to agree. first roll is your attack roll. If you roll well enough you THREATEN to critical. Second roll is your confirmation roll. All it does it see if you confirm the threatened critical.
royinator 06-16-07, 07:39 PM	I jump in and say second roll as well, for the heck of it.
Einvaldurinn_mikli 06-16-07, 07:52 PM	I jump in and say second roll as well, for the heck of it. O, me too!
jaelis 06-16-07, 08:46 PM	... everything i've read has always referred to the initial roll as the threat confirmation and the second roll as the critical confirmation. I can't recall ever having read anything like that, myself. The first roll is the attack roll, and the second roll is the confirmation.
Pentar 06-16-07, 08:53 PM	You only ever roll a Confirmation dice if you threaten a crit. You cannot confirm something you're not threatening. IN otherwords, like everyone else has said, the second roll. Nice try by your player, though... to try to get a +4 bonus to attack... Clever.
risner 06-16-07, 08:58 PM	First roll is the to hit roll. If you hit the target's AC or you roll a 20, then you hit. If on the first roll, you did hit and it is greater than the weapon's threat, then you roll a second roll. Second roll is the crit confirmation roll. If you miss here, you still do damage, but not critical damage. If you hit here (with or without the +4 Power Critical), then you deal critical damage.
Gray Mouser 06-16-07, 09:25 PM	Just to beat a dead horse, everyone above is correct. I deem it so. :D Just out of curiousity, were you and s/he playing back in 3.0? The original version of Power Critical (in Masters of the Wild, I believe) allowed you, once per day, to declare an attack a threat without ever rolling the initial attack roll, just the confirmation. If your player could have ever read that Power Critical, it could explain the confusion.
Nargath 06-17-07, 01:57 AM	Thanks to all for the response. The player in question actually checked this board to see if there was any info about Power Critical, and found this thread :) But upon reading everyone's comments, he is now following my suggestion! And Gray Mouser, no he/we didn't play 3.0, we all started at the same time in 3.5. Thanks again!
CaoSlayer 06-17-07, 02:43 PM	it is a very nice feat in hands of someone with a vorpal weapon or energy burst ones. Otherwise I favor weapon focus for a +1 to hit and confirmation of critical hits.
ShinAkuma2 06-17-07, 06:00 PM	If the initial roll is the "threat confirmation", that would mean every hit is a threat, ie, a possible crit. Does that make any sense to your player?