Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Sunic_Flames 06-16-07, 11:57 AM	Powerful Build: Requirements: Str 18+, sum of all three physical stats 45+. Effect: You have learned how to best use your bulk and physical prowess to your advantage. You gain Powerful Build, as the racial ability. Too good/not good enough? Came up with this randomly.
Part-Human2 06-16-07, 01:26 PM	Sorry but no. Powerful Build is better than the Monkey Grip feat (doesn't take -2 to hit), grants bonuses with tripping, grappling, bull rushing and provides a little defense against monster attack that depend on size. Increasing the Prerequisites doesn't make it balanced.
Darth Sephiroth 06-16-07, 01:28 PM	Perhaps it would work with Jotenbrud and Monkey Grip as prereqs.
Sunic_Flames 06-16-07, 01:34 PM	Perhaps it would work with Jotenbrud and Monkey Grip as prereqs. Don't those two grant most or all of the same abilities together? Read this as: What additional benefit would Powerful Build add if you already had these two? I'll grant it's powerful, but Monkey Grip isn't exactly a good feat. Typically it's a trade of 2 attack for 2 damage... which Power Attack does as well or better while not being stuck with a rarer and thus harder to upgrade weapon due to non medium size.
Kopana 06-16-07, 01:56 PM	Two damage? What are you on? Medium Greataxe/Greatsword 2d6/1d12 Large Greataxe/Greatsword 3d6 That's two attack for 1d6 damage. It's the equivalent of getting an unresistable Flaming on your weapon for 2 attack. Edit: And what if you're already Large size? Playing a minotaur with a Huge Greataxe gives you something like 4d6 I think, with just the weapon without any enchantments at all. Toss around 8K for the +1 needed and then a Flaming enchantment and you're doing 5d6+Str+1.
tarkin 06-16-07, 02:47 PM	Here is a viable feat: Powerful Build. Requirements: Monkey Grip. Medium size or smaller (Note, if for any reason you become Large sized or larger, you lose the benefit of this feat). Benefit: As per racial ability, Reminder - does not stack with Monkey Grip Pre-req ------- Anything else becomes abusive, because creatures take it, then boost their size up to Huge. Example of how a human can do that. Step 1. find and contract Wearbear lycanthropy. Step 2. Assume Hybrid form. You are now a humanoid, Large sized (Tall) creature. Step 3. Drink Potion of Enlarge Person. Huge sized Humanoid person. Step 4. Use your feat Powerfull Build ability. Not only can you use a Gargantuan sized weapon, but you also get Gargantuan sized bonuses to disarm, grapple, etc.
Part-Human2 06-16-07, 03:50 PM	Don't those two grant most or all of the same abilities together? Read this as: What additional benefit would Powerful Build add if you already had these two? I'll grant it's powerful, but Monkey Grip isn't exactly a good feat. Typically it's a trade of 2 attack for 2 damage... which Power Attack does as well or better while not being stuck with a rarer and thus harder to upgrade weapon due to non medium size. If you think Monkey Grip isn't good as written, re-write that feat. The size bonuses provided by Powerful Build are also worth a feat (i.e. Jotenbrud, RoF). You're making a feat that provides the benefits of a couple of feats.
risner 06-16-07, 09:06 PM	Powerful Build: Requirements: Str 18+, sum of all three physical stats 45+. Effect: You have learned how to best use your bulk and physical prowess to your advantage. You gain Powerful Build, as the racial ability. Too good/not good enough? Came up with this randomly. Too Good. Way too good. Absurdly good. Insanely good. Better than two feats good (Monkey Grip and Jotunbrud combined.) This is a joke right?
JadeSpider9643 06-16-07, 09:26 PM	powerful build gives you a scaling bonus to opposed trip/grapple/bull rush/[other opposed rolls with size modifiers], any one of these would be a feat by itself, depending on your size the bonus could be even greater than a single feat would grant. But we're not done! You're also considered a size category larger to see if something can swallow you whole, or impale you on it's back-spines, or constrict you. That'd easily be a decent feat by itself. What? still more?! you can use weapons a size category larger than yourself too with no penalty, that can easily be an extra whole damage dice on every weapon attack you make, EVAR! And with no penalty, this is better than power attack or weapon specialization. Not many melee builds would pass up this ability alone as a feat. I'd personally blow an extra feat if it had a junk-feat prerequisite. So powerful build looks to be equivilant to (at least) 5 feats. So can you have it as a single feat? sure, why not? just ask your DM (to not fall off his chair laughing at the idea :rimshot: )
runestar 06-16-07, 10:21 PM	It is mathematically the equivalent of the jotunbrud feat, monkey grip, and an imaginary feat which negates the -2 penalty from monkey grip. So replicating powerful build as a 3-feat tree seems fair enough to me.:)
Johnny_Angel 06-16-07, 10:25 PM	Since when does monkey grip not stack with powerful build? (I'm sure somebody will point out the SRD to me, but...) If you already were medium with powerful build, you would be considered large in situations which it is beneficial for you to be treated as large. Doing more damage with a bigger weapon seems to fit that definition. medium + p.build = using large weapons Since you are treated as being large from powerful build, wouldn't monkey grip then allow you to use huge weapons at a -2 penalty?
Frugal 06-16-07, 11:32 PM	Since when does monkey grip not stack with powerful build? (I'm sure somebody will point out the SRD to me, but...) If you already were medium with powerful build, you would be considered large in situations which it is beneficial for you to be treated as large. Doing more damage with a bigger weapon seems to fit that definition. Except that's not how the racial trait is worded. In terms of wielding weapons, both allow you to wield weapons 1 size category larger than you are, you're still a medium creature so both would allow you to wield large weapons.
runestar 06-16-07, 11:36 PM	Powerful build only treats you as 1 size bigger for a very specific list of effects, and being 1 size larger when combined with monkey grip is sadly not one of the benefits listed. Plus, monkey grip is based off your base size, which is still medium, even with powerful grip.
The_Mighty_Mintzy 06-17-07, 12:53 AM	Why don't you just make a spell-touched feat. It don't seem overpowered when you compare it to stuff like Blade-proof Skin or Live My Nightmare. for example, one of the characters from the trilogy... Twilight Giant.. something...? Crap! I forgot the name of the trilogy, you know the one with Tavis Burden, the Firbolg. Anyway, one of the characters wishes to be bigger, (I know its a wish, but thats beside the point, and is not a part of the topic. Please do not post in response to the phrase "one of the characters wishes". Thanks.) she doesnt actually grow to large size but the way they describe her in the books, the way I see it is she aquired the powerful build feat. Thats my two cents, I could be wrong and I could be right. More importantly if your DM lets it go and you got a good story for how you act as one size larger, by all means Mr. Flames, go for it. Do it, do it, ... do it. I'm out
AllisterH 06-17-07, 10:22 AM	for example, one of the characters from the trilogy... Twilight Giant.. something...? Crap! I forgot the name of the trilogy, you know the one with Tavis Burden, the Firbolg. Anyway, one of the characters wishes to be bigger, (I know its a wish, but thats beside the point, and is not a part of the topic. Please do not post in response to the phrase "one of the characters wishes". Thanks.) she doesnt actually grow to large size but the way they describe her in the books, the way I see it is she aquired the powerful build feat. I thought that was because her entire family, while human sized, had the strength equivalent of a hill giant. Wasn't her father the king throwing around his solid gold throne one-handed around without breaking a sweat? It has veen a while since I read those books...
runestar 06-17-07, 10:29 AM	In game terms, that would probably mean she has the jotunbrud feat, and a very high str score (perhaps natural 18, with extra points going into boosting it every 4th lv), and possibly one of the giant bloodlines (intermediate or major) as detailed in UA. They supposedly had giant blood in their lineage, thus accounting for their prodigious strength.:)
obrysii 06-17-07, 10:45 AM	Honestly, with those requirements (Str 18, Total physical scores must be 45+) balances it out. It isn't an (easily) achievable thing to do with 32 point buy. The only way you could do it is if you accepted 8s for all mental stats. At that point, it isn't worth it at low levels.
runestar 06-17-07, 10:51 AM	Honestly, with those requirements (Str 18, Total physical scores must be 45+) balances it out. Works out to be roughly str18, dex14, con14 (plus/minus a little here and there). A half-orc with base str16 can easily afford it even with 25 point buy. And since I see nothing expressly prohibiting the use of stat-boosting magic items...:P
obrysii 06-17-07, 11:03 AM	Works out to be roughly str18, dex14, con14 (plus/minus a little here and there). A half-orc with base str16 can easily afford it even with 25 point buy. And since I see nothing expressly prohibiting the use of stat-boosting magic items...:P Problem with Stat-boosting items is that as soon as you have them taken away, you lose your feat. A Half-Orc would still end up having mental scores in the gutter, though.
Shadowfax7 06-17-07, 11:17 AM	It is mathematically the equivalent of the jotunbrud feat, monkey grip, and an imaginary feat which negates the -2 penalty from monkey grip. Does the Jotunbrud feat actually consider you a size category larger to see if something can swallow you whole, etc. I thought it only provided the size bonuses for special attacks. And technically the Jotunbrud feat is worth more than a feat as it's a FR Regional feat which are more powerful than normal feats. Thus mathematically, Powerful Build might be worth even 3 1/2 feats.
risner 06-17-07, 11:20 AM	1) Since when does monkey grip not stack with powerful build? 2) If you already were medium with powerful build, you would be considered large in situations which it is beneficial for you to be treated as large. Doing more damage with a bigger weapon seems to fit that definition. 1) Forever 2) False Honestly, with those requirements (Str 18, Total physical scores must be 45+) balances it out. You used the wrong word. Balance doesn't mean "if I optimize for it, I can do it." Balance means, if someone optimizes the best character possible in the game to use this one ability, is it balanced against other methods of optimization. This feat, as the OP designed, is not balanced and never can be balanced. The point you don't seem to understand, is there is no way to balance based on high stats. If you had at 100 point buy, it still wouldn't be balanced.
Sunic_Flames 06-17-07, 02:56 PM	Works out to be roughly str18, dex14, con14 (plus/minus a little here and there). A half-orc with base str16 can easily afford it even with 25 point buy. And since I see nothing expressly prohibiting the use of stat-boosting magic items...:P Well my first line of thought was make it possible around lowish mid levels, as in mid-high single digits. Upon further reflection, this may be too low. So... *takes editing pen, makes it Str 27+, sum of all physical stats 60+* There. Now it's either balanced, or it isn't, but game balance left the building a few levels ago anyways, and since the spellcasters are gating in epic crap, shapechanging at will, and so forth having the martial guy be better at a few special maneuvers kinda pales by comparison. Also consider, anyone who wanted it could have it without any prereqs at ECL 2 for the cost of 1 feat (vs human) and 1 level (which may or may not even matter, depending on if you use LA burnoff variant rules). And ok, I botched the math. But know what? Doesn't matter. 1d6 = 3.5 average. That's 1.75:1, still inferior to the more flexible and better built upon Power Attack with a simple 2 hander. Which by the way, can be raised to 4:1 with a single feat, (leap attack is +100%) and go higher than this with more effort. Monkey Grip is still a subpar feat, in much the same manner Combat Casting is a subpar feat to Skill Focus: Concentration. This is not even getting into the > Medium sized weapons = much harder to find, and thus to find upgrades thing... The other effects are better, though the further you progress the more often you fight creatures bigger than you and for example, it makes no difference how good you are at grappling if the size difference makes it impossible anyways. Whereas being counted as bigger, means you're less likely to be automatically shoved into a wall, (for 8d6 + triple str perhaps) or eaten, or whatever. To the werebear guy: Ok, you contract lycanthropy. You now have an LA of 3, meaning you've lost 3 class levels. Maybe more than this if the HD are also applied. Rather high cost to get huge, especially considering there are several ways to get the same effect at a significantly lower and less circumstancial cost. In summary, I accept the first effort was an undershot, but not to the extent being claimed by many of the replies.
JadeSpider9643 06-18-07, 12:57 AM	Well my first line of thought was make it possible around lowish mid levels, as in mid-high single digits. Upon further reflection, this may be too low. So... *takes editing pen, makes it Str 27+, sum of all physical stats 60+* There. Now it's either balanced, or it isn't, but game balance left the building a few levels ago anyways, and since the spellcasters are gating in epic crap, shapechanging at will, and so forth having the martial guy be better at a few special maneuvers kinda pales by comparison. Also consider, anyone who wanted it could have it without any prereqs at ECL 2 for the cost of 1 feat (vs human) and 1 level (which may or may not even matter, depending on if you use LA burnoff variant rules). And ok, I botched the math. But know what? Doesn't matter. 1d6 = 3.5 average. That's 1.75:1, still inferior to the more flexible and better built upon Power Attack with a simple 2 hander. Which by the way, can be raised to 4:1 with a single feat, (leap attack is +100%) and go higher than this with more effort. Monkey Grip is still a subpar feat, in much the same manner Combat Casting is a subpar feat to Skill Focus: Concentration. This is not even getting into the > Medium sized weapons = much harder to find, and thus to find upgrades thing... The other effects are better, though the further you progress the more often you fight creatures bigger than you and for example, it makes no difference how good you are at grappling if the size difference makes it impossible anyways. Whereas being counted as bigger, means you're less likely to be automatically shoved into a wall, (for 8d6 + triple str perhaps) or eaten, or whatever. To the werebear guy: Ok, you contract lycanthropy. You now have an LA of 3, meaning you've lost 3 class levels. Maybe more than this if the HD are also applied. Rather high cost to get huge, especially considering there are several ways to get the same effect at a significantly lower and less circumstancial cost. In summary, I accept the first effort was an undershot, but not to the extent being claimed by many of the replies. ok first, you can't calculate a flat benefit from the use of increased weapon sizes. you're looking at a very narrowly defined scenario. going from medium to large sized weapons. what about small to medium..large to huge, tiny to small? it's a scalling power that is of more benefit to some people than it is to others. when you're asking if/how to make a balanced feat you have to look at it's highest reasonable value. (that is how good it is to someone that benefits from it, but is not necesicarily completely optimized to exploit it). Powerful build would be a pointless joke to a diminiative creature, and it would be a no-brainer must-have for a Huge creature. Because of this you can't judge it's balance based on just a single sample medium average creature, any more than you can judge the power level of praticed spellcaster looking at a rogue/fighter build. praticed spellcaster is useless for the rogue/fighter, but it's a pretty dang big deal for the rogue/wizard. You can look at one sample and see that the benefits seem balanced, but in another case it's way over powered. But this isn't even the case! You're looking at the over-powered sample now! Go read all the things that powerful build does, even if you don't plan/expect to take advantage of those benefits, they are still there and must be considered when determing balance. Tell me you think it's ok to grant ALL those things in exchange for just a single feat. Find one other feat that grants that many bonuses with no drawbacks. Anything with that much benefit comes with heafty penalties.
sooperspook 06-18-07, 02:00 AM	What does Jotunbrud give you? And which book is it from?
risner 06-18-07, 02:01 AM	sum of all physical stats 60+* There. Now it's either balanced, or it isn't, but game balance left the building a few levels ago anyways It still isn't balanced, and it can't be balanced by any physical stat value. 100, 200, still not balanced. Powerful Build pre-reqs: STR 15, Monkey Grip, Jotunbrud, and Medium size Now it is balanced fine.
Sunic_Flames 06-18-07, 08:49 AM	It still isn't balanced, and it can't be balanced by any physical stat value. 100, 200, still not balanced. Powerful Build pre-reqs: STR 15, Monkey Grip, Jotunbrud, and Medium size Now it is balanced fine. And anyone with Enlarge Person or for that matter any size increasing ability makes it utterly redundant, ensuring it will never actually be used, and will be filler material. WotC can make material that serves no purpose but filler, and it's still useful to them. I on the other hand make no money from publishing material, so regardless of my vantage point when creating content, anything I make is going to be worth using or it isn't worth my time to create. The Medium or smaller thing is the same flaw that neuters the Reaping Mauler Prestige Class... it's designed for grappling, except it requires Clever Wrestling, which in turn requires Medium size or smaller. Except, grappling is all about pumping up the size past Medium via varying methods to increase that modifier and be able to wrestle the big stuff at all. So, you cast enlarge or whatever, and your PRC turns off. Fool's Gold so to speak. As a result, what do ya know? The real grappling PRCs are not clearly designed for such, but do offer better benefits in this way. For example, the Bear Warrior. Str and size boosts... end up getting far more of a grappling boost without a critical flaw. Road less traveled of sorts. Also, there seems to be some misunderstanding here. When I was talking of size differences in weapons and their measured effects in terms of damage difference, I was debating the usefulness (or rather lack thereof) of Monkey Grip, the reason being it was called into question as if feat = feat. Well it doesn't, some are better than others and as a result feats do not have equal worth compared to each other. So saying it's worth 2 feats, when one is crap, I read as being equal to 1.5 feats, and not 2. Powerful Build is well... Powerful. Not debating this, the intended purpose of the thread is to find a way to introduce it as balanced without having some critical flaw that neuters it entirely. And again keep in mind there are a number of ways to get Large or the benefits of being Large that cost a single level and a single feat (and not even always this, the only reason there's a feat cost is because humans get an extra feat and most other races do not) and offer additional benefits as well. Half giant = LA 1, Powerful Build, +2 str and con offset only by -2 dex and other abilities making them excellent psy warriors, which means they're huge with powerful build at ML 7th as a standard action. Goliaths have less special abilities but still grant that ability and other perks, and +4 str and con offset by the -2 dex. Cleric with Strength Domain = Enlarge Person. The list goes on. Obviously these are exclusive from each other and cannot be stacked, but still multiple options. Ok now to the next point, let's look at the highest possible benefit someone could feasibly obtain. Huge > Gargantuan. Ok, you jump from 4d6 to 6d6, this makes a difference of 7 points on average. And the next size boost is the same increment, just to cover that base. Also by this point, you are at least mid levels and therefore, are most likely at least partially done with a feat tree. Ok, this means your PA return is 4:1, easily. Perhaps more than this. Which simplifies down to... 1.75 vs 2. It changes nothing. Same end result, different path to get there. Now sure, if the Power Attacker does not have Leap Attack, then it's 3.5 vs 2, but at this point we are basically stating the benefit is only worth the drawback if one's hands are tied behind their back. Now, without the penalty as per Powerful Build, a flat 7 damage boost for a larger weapon is nice yes. Better than some of the lower end feats that serve this purpose. But, about middle of the road overall as there are quite a few feats that grant a higher benefit than this. And as this benefit doesn't apply until mid levels, the standard of comparison is mid level feats. The other benefit? +4 to various size and opposed roll based manuevers, most of which are based upon Strength. (which anyone aiming for a front liner type would have plenty of as it is, but not enough by itself if for no other reason than size differences) Is it nice? Sure. Helpful? Yes. Necessary? Yes (unfortuntely), because the further you progress the more likely you are to face the big creatures that are highly resistant or immune to said maneuvers, which this helps to offset. Now specifically, it aids in grappling, bull rushing, and tripping. Grappling is a moderately effective tactic if built right for it. So is bull rushing, and so is tripping. Thing is, the overlap is limited. Grappling involves high str, size increasing, and some other stuff to latch on and beat the crap out of em. Bull rushing involves dungeoncrasher, probably knockback and so forth. Tripping involves a nice big reach, combat reflexes, etc. These paths have some things in common, but due to the feats required to use them effectively, starting with Improved ______ that it is unlikely to be able to effectively employ more than 1, unless you are a high level fighter or something to have a lot of feats to work with, and do I really need to make the fighter joke? :P And even then, the different and often exclusive tactics would make it difficult even if you otherwise could. Improved Grab and the special abilities based on size such as Swallow Whole are grapple based in at least most cases so consider those lumped into that. The overall effect? Powerful Build in feat form would be a very high tier feat. It wouldn't be on unfounded territory, but it'd be up there with the biggest boys. And as a result, set to high requirements so as to make it not available until near epic levels under normal circumstances. Strong? Certainly. Overpowered? Sorry, having a hard time seeing getting something at ECL 15-20 you could have had at ECL 2 with a more straightforward path as over the top.
runestar 06-18-07, 08:54 AM	The feat form of powerful build would be available to a human fighter at 1st lv, and its benefits would stack with enlarge person (since its benefits augment your base size, rather than being a fixed variable).:) I am not sure what you mean by "high lv tier feat"...:confused:
Sunic_Flames 06-18-07, 09:22 AM	The feat form of powerful build would be available to a human fighter at 1st lv, and its benefits would stack with enlarge person (since its benefits augment your base size, rather than being a fixed variable).:) I am not sure what you mean by "high lv tier feat"...:confused: Show me a 1st level human fighter with 27 str and the other 2 physical stats combined 33 or higher. 1st level character I can see, but such a character would not be ECL 1. Unless this was directed at the 'balanced' version, in which case you're confusing his words with mine.
Frugal 06-18-07, 09:42 AM	Personally, I don't think that it can be balanced as a feat without "neutering" it in some way. I also find the combined physical stats prerequisite to be extremely clunky and inelegant.
Darth Sephiroth 06-18-07, 02:52 PM	How about this then Powerful Build [General] You are larger than most of your kind. Prerequisites: Str 17+, Con 15+, Jotenbrud, Monkey Grip, BAB 3+ Benefit: You gain the Powerful Build special ability, further you lose the benefits of Jotenbrud and Monkey Grip. Special: A Fighter may select Powerful Build as a bonus feat.
risner 06-18-07, 04:20 PM	How about this then Powerful Build [General] You are larger than most of your kind. Prerequisites: Str 17+, Con 15+, Jotenbrud, Monkey Grip, BAB 3+ Benefit: You gain the Powerful Build special ability, further you lose the benefits of Jotenbrud and Monkey Grip. Special: A Fighter may select Powerful Build as a bonus feat. The only problem is there isn't a single race or class that gives Powerful Build to a Large or larger creature/PC. Powerful Build Goliath, Races of Stone Half-Giant, Expanded Psionics Handbook Redcap, Monster Manual 3 Paladin 3 (Wary Swordknight substitution level), Champions of Valor - halflings only, only for opposed checks and special attacks Touchstone (Sunken City of Pazar), feat, Sandstorm, limited use All those sources require Small or Medium size. The problem with balance is that it needs to be balanced. I don't see a need to add something as inexpensive as this (3 feats, or in other words a 3rd level Ogre fighter) an ability that doesn't exist any other way in game. Something that is exceptionally good for Large, Huge, etc sized builds.
Bhaal006 06-18-07, 04:34 PM	Giant Heritage: Prerequisites: Str 16+, Level 1, Human Benefit: due to giant blood in your family tree you are larger than a normal creature of your type and gain Powerful build as the racial trait, unfortunately like your giant ancestors you are stupid and recieve a -2 penalty to your intelligence.
Raymond_Luxury_Yacht 06-18-07, 07:59 PM	It is mathematically the equivalent of the jotunbrud feat, monkey grip, and an imaginary feat which negates the -2 penalty from monkey grip. So replicating powerful build as a 3-feat tree seems fair enough to me.:) Wield Oversized Weapon. It's an epic feat.
The_Mighty_Mintzy 06-20-07, 04:42 AM	I still say spell-touched feat, just have the person exposed to enough Enlarge Person spells for the magic to linger and trigger the desired effect, besides: you would have to spend a feat to get it anyway! That is of course, you're even playing with spell-touched feats in the first place. Its not always about game balance or mechanics, it's about having a bad-ass character with a cool story, that you enjoy playing.