Practiced Martial Adept [Archive] - Wizards Community

Practiced Martial Adept [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Jaxgaret
09-02-07, 09:32 PM How balanced does everyone think a Practiced Martial Adept feat would be?

Identical to Practiced Spellcaster, except that it boosts Initiator level by +4.

Would it be more balanced at a lower number - +2 or +3?

EDIT: Found another thread in the Archives called Practiced Initiator (http://forums.gleemax.com/archive/index.php/t-857715.html) (I prefer my name for it).

But I would still like to discuss the feat here.
ZiggZagg
09-02-07, 09:34 PM I asked about this before, but the general consensus seems to be that everything is alright since half your other level count towards your Initiator Level
Salla
09-02-07, 09:35 PM I asked about this before, but the general consensus seems to be that everything is alright since half your other level count towards your Initiator Level

Exactly. This, along with the fact that maneuvers have few, if any, level-based variables, makes Practiced Initiator completely unnecessary.
Jaxgaret
09-02-07, 09:43 PM Exactly. This, along with the fact that maneuvers have few, if any, level-based variables, makes Practiced Initiator completely unnecessary.

How is it completely unnecessary? Particularly for a character with fewer Martial Adept levels than non-Adept levels, this feat could be very useful.

I'm just wondering if it is balanced at +4, or if it should be a lower number.

I asked about this before, but the general consensus seems to be that everything is alright since half your other level count towards your Initiator Level

Already linked to that in the OP. It didn't seem to go in-depth or provide a true consensus.
InkBlot
09-02-07, 10:46 PM I would say +2 at most. Perhaps just a flat "you can learn maneuvers of one level higher than your intiator level would normally allow." There's a feat like that for binders. Not both though. One or the other.

Or maybe +1 with all maneuvers/stances of a certain school, no limit of HD. Or is there already a feat like that? I forget. Sounds like something they would make.
Jaxgaret
09-02-07, 11:30 PM I would say +2 at most. Perhaps just a flat "you can learn maneuvers of one level higher than your intiator level would normally allow." There's a feat like that for binders.

The feat, Improved Binding from Tome of Magic, provides for a +2 to Binder level when determining eligible vestiges. But it isn't capped to a max of HD like the Practiced X feats are. Note that there is a Practiced Binder feat in the ToM as well, but it is not a parallel to the other Practiced X feats.

Still not sure if +2 to Initiator Level or +4 is more balanced. Or possibly +3 is a fair compromise.

Any other opinions?
bkdubs123
09-02-07, 11:37 PM I agree with a +2 to initiator level feat. No reason for it to be any higher.
InkBlot
09-03-07, 11:28 AM The feat, Improved Binding from Tome of Magic, provides for a +2 to Binder level when determining eligible vestiges. But it isn't capped to a max of HD like the Practiced X feats are.
Yes. That's exactly what I said. I'm playing a binder with that feat currently, in fact.

IMPROVED MARTIAL ARTS [FIGHTER]
Flavor text.
Prerequisites: BAB +1, Martial Lore 4 ranks
Benefit: You can learn maneuvers of one level higher than your initiator level would normally allow.
Jaxgaret
09-03-07, 12:11 PM Yes. That's exactly what I said. I'm playing a binder with that feat currently, in fact.

IMPROVED MARTIAL ARTS [FIGHTER]
Flavor text.
Prerequisites: BAB +1, Martial Lore 4 ranks
Benefit: You can learn maneuvers of one level higher than your initiator level would normally allow.

Except that a feat like that could be taken by full martial adepts to gain access to higher level maneuvers than they normally could, which might be construed as imbalanced.

I am asking for balance consideration on a feat that brings Initiator level up to a max of the character's HD, and would not benefit full martial adepts at all.

It would seem that such a feat would need a higher value to be balanced against a +2 feat that has no max HD cap. So are you saying that it would be balanced at +3 or +4?
InkBlot
09-03-07, 12:25 PM It's just as balanced as Improved Binding, which is fine and balanced IMO.

After thinking it over some more, I'm not sure what would be so wrong with making a feat that allows your entire character level to count towards your initiator level. You'd still have to take levels in Swordsage, Crusader, or Warblade, or take Martial Study, in order to get maneuvers. Maneuvers would still be balanced for the level they're normally able to be gotten at.

The only worry I can see would be any new combos that might be made possible, and even then I'm not sure it would be so bad. Most maneuvers have lower level versions which do the same thing, but deal less damage. So a combo that could be made normally with Mighty Throw wouldn't be so much more powerful with Devistating Throw.

There are lots of ways to work this:
*Choose one class, all levels in that class count fully towards you initiator levels.

*For each level in non-initiator classes, you gain an increase to your initiator levels equal to the BAB you gain from that class.

*Choose on martial adept class you have levels in, non-martial-adept levels add +3/4 to your initiator level for that class.

*You gain a +4 to your initiator level in one martial adept class, to a maximum of your HD.

*Et cetra.
Jaxgaret
09-03-07, 12:35 PM So you think a feat that can actually provide more than +4 to Initiator level, capped to a max of HD, is balanced.

That would make it seem that you must think that OP feat itself is balanced.
InkBlot
09-03-07, 12:52 PM I said I'm not sure.

If I were writing Complete Martial Adept, I wouldn't write it like that. Too similar to what's already been done for my tastes. But that has nothing to do with balance.
Shadowhowler
09-03-07, 02:37 PM I would have no probelm with the +4, as it works for practiced spellcaster.

However... I should also put forth that my experince with ToB is limited. I have it, I have read it, and I have played in games with other people who played Martial Adepts, but I have not played one myself yet, or DMed a game with one in it... so my opinion carries little wieght on the issue of balance in this case.
ScipioX
09-05-07, 02:19 AM A +4 initiator feat is NOT balanced at all.

Practiced spellcaster works because it just increases the effectiveness of a split class caster's lower level spells. It does NOT give access to higher level spells.

A bonus to initiator level would allow split class adepts to pick higher level maneuvers.

Example: Compare a warblade 8 with a fighter 6/warblade 2. The multiclassed character gets 6 fighter levels. With this theoretical practiced initiator feat, he could take all high level maneuvers, since his initiator level would be 7 (at warblade 1) and 8 (at warblade 2), instead of 4 and 5.
Armoracia Rusticana
09-05-07, 06:25 AM +2 (capped with character level) will do. Because of IL mechanics - +2 bonus is equal to 4 skipped levels in martial adept class. That is nearly equal to effect of Practicised Spellcaster.
Shadowhowler
09-05-07, 01:27 PM A +4 initiator feat is NOT balanced at all.

Practiced spellcaster works because it just increases the effectiveness of a split class caster's lower level spells. It does NOT give access to higher level spells.

A bonus to initiator level would allow split class adepts to pick higher level maneuvers.

Example: Compare a warblade 8 with a fighter 6/warblade 2. The multiclassed character gets 6 fighter levels. With this theoretical practiced initiator feat, he could take all high level maneuvers, since his initiator level would be 7 (at warblade 1) and 8 (at warblade 2), instead of 4 and 5.

A very good point.
Jaxgaret
09-05-07, 06:27 PM I think I am inclined to agree with +2 being the appropriate bonus for the feat.

Thanks muchly for all of your insights and thought. :)

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Jaxgaret 09-02-07, 09:32 PM	How balanced does everyone think a Practiced Martial Adept feat would be? Identical to Practiced Spellcaster, except that it boosts Initiator level by +4. Would it be more balanced at a lower number - +2 or +3? EDIT: Found another thread in the Archives called Practiced Initiator (http://forums.gleemax.com/archive/index.php/t-857715.html) (I prefer my name for it). But I would still like to discuss the feat here.
ZiggZagg 09-02-07, 09:34 PM	I asked about this before, but the general consensus seems to be that everything is alright since half your other level count towards your Initiator Level
Salla 09-02-07, 09:35 PM	I asked about this before, but the general consensus seems to be that everything is alright since half your other level count towards your Initiator Level Exactly. This, along with the fact that maneuvers have few, if any, level-based variables, makes Practiced Initiator completely unnecessary.
Jaxgaret 09-02-07, 09:43 PM	Exactly. This, along with the fact that maneuvers have few, if any, level-based variables, makes Practiced Initiator completely unnecessary. How is it completely unnecessary? Particularly for a character with fewer Martial Adept levels than non-Adept levels, this feat could be very useful. I'm just wondering if it is balanced at +4, or if it should be a lower number. I asked about this before, but the general consensus seems to be that everything is alright since half your other level count towards your Initiator Level Already linked to that in the OP. It didn't seem to go in-depth or provide a true consensus.
InkBlot 09-02-07, 10:46 PM	I would say +2 at most. Perhaps just a flat "you can learn maneuvers of one level higher than your intiator level would normally allow." There's a feat like that for binders. Not both though. One or the other. Or maybe +1 with all maneuvers/stances of a certain school, no limit of HD. Or is there already a feat like that? I forget. Sounds like something they would make.
Jaxgaret 09-02-07, 11:30 PM	I would say +2 at most. Perhaps just a flat "you can learn maneuvers of one level higher than your intiator level would normally allow." There's a feat like that for binders. The feat, Improved Binding from Tome of Magic, provides for a +2 to Binder level when determining eligible vestiges. But it isn't capped to a max of HD like the Practiced X feats are. Note that there is a Practiced Binder feat in the ToM as well, but it is not a parallel to the other Practiced X feats. Still not sure if +2 to Initiator Level or +4 is more balanced. Or possibly +3 is a fair compromise. Any other opinions?
bkdubs123 09-02-07, 11:37 PM	I agree with a +2 to initiator level feat. No reason for it to be any higher.
InkBlot 09-03-07, 11:28 AM	The feat, Improved Binding from Tome of Magic, provides for a +2 to Binder level when determining eligible vestiges. But it isn't capped to a max of HD like the Practiced X feats are. Yes. That's exactly what I said. I'm playing a binder with that feat currently, in fact. IMPROVED MARTIAL ARTS [FIGHTER] Flavor text. Prerequisites: BAB +1, Martial Lore 4 ranks Benefit: You can learn maneuvers of one level higher than your initiator level would normally allow.
Jaxgaret 09-03-07, 12:11 PM	Yes. That's exactly what I said. I'm playing a binder with that feat currently, in fact. IMPROVED MARTIAL ARTS [FIGHTER] Flavor text. Prerequisites: BAB +1, Martial Lore 4 ranks Benefit: You can learn maneuvers of one level higher than your initiator level would normally allow. Except that a feat like that could be taken by full martial adepts to gain access to higher level maneuvers than they normally could, which might be construed as imbalanced. I am asking for balance consideration on a feat that brings Initiator level up to a max of the character's HD, and would not benefit full martial adepts at all. It would seem that such a feat would need a higher value to be balanced against a +2 feat that has no max HD cap. So are you saying that it would be balanced at +3 or +4?
InkBlot 09-03-07, 12:25 PM	It's just as balanced as Improved Binding, which is fine and balanced IMO. After thinking it over some more, I'm not sure what would be so wrong with making a feat that allows your entire character level to count towards your initiator level. You'd still have to take levels in Swordsage, Crusader, or Warblade, or take Martial Study, in order to get maneuvers. Maneuvers would still be balanced for the level they're normally able to be gotten at. The only worry I can see would be any new combos that might be made possible, and even then I'm not sure it would be so bad. Most maneuvers have lower level versions which do the same thing, but deal less damage. So a combo that could be made normally with Mighty Throw wouldn't be so much more powerful with Devistating Throw. There are lots of ways to work this: Choose one class, all levels in that class count fully towards you initiator levels. For each level in non-initiator classes, you gain an increase to your initiator levels equal to the BAB you gain from that class. Choose on martial adept class you have levels in, non-martial-adept levels add +3/4 to your initiator level for that class. You gain a +4 to your initiator level in one martial adept class, to a maximum of your HD. *Et cetra.
Jaxgaret 09-03-07, 12:35 PM	So you think a feat that can actually provide more than +4 to Initiator level, capped to a max of HD, is balanced. That would make it seem that you must think that OP feat itself is balanced.
InkBlot 09-03-07, 12:52 PM	I said I'm not sure. If I were writing Complete Martial Adept, I wouldn't write it like that. Too similar to what's already been done for my tastes. But that has nothing to do with balance.
Shadowhowler 09-03-07, 02:37 PM	I would have no probelm with the +4, as it works for practiced spellcaster. However... I should also put forth that my experince with ToB is limited. I have it, I have read it, and I have played in games with other people who played Martial Adepts, but I have not played one myself yet, or DMed a game with one in it... so my opinion carries little wieght on the issue of balance in this case.
ScipioX 09-05-07, 02:19 AM	A +4 initiator feat is NOT balanced at all. Practiced spellcaster works because it just increases the effectiveness of a split class caster's lower level spells. It does NOT give access to higher level spells. A bonus to initiator level would allow split class adepts to pick higher level maneuvers. Example: Compare a warblade 8 with a fighter 6/warblade 2. The multiclassed character gets 6 fighter levels. With this theoretical practiced initiator feat, he could take all high level maneuvers, since his initiator level would be 7 (at warblade 1) and 8 (at warblade 2), instead of 4 and 5.
Armoracia Rusticana 09-05-07, 06:25 AM	+2 (capped with character level) will do. Because of IL mechanics - +2 bonus is equal to 4 skipped levels in martial adept class. That is nearly equal to effect of Practicised Spellcaster.
Shadowhowler 09-05-07, 01:27 PM	A +4 initiator feat is NOT balanced at all. Practiced spellcaster works because it just increases the effectiveness of a split class caster's lower level spells. It does NOT give access to higher level spells. A bonus to initiator level would allow split class adepts to pick higher level maneuvers. Example: Compare a warblade 8 with a fighter 6/warblade 2. The multiclassed character gets 6 fighter levels. With this theoretical practiced initiator feat, he could take all high level maneuvers, since his initiator level would be 7 (at warblade 1) and 8 (at warblade 2), instead of 4 and 5. A very good point.
Jaxgaret 09-05-07, 06:27 PM	I think I am inclined to agree with +2 being the appropriate bonus for the feat. Thanks muchly for all of your insights and thought. :)