Practiced Sneak Attacker? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Practiced Sneak Attacker? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Werebat
04-10-07, 09:27 PM Is there a feat anywhere that functions like Practiced Spellcaster, but instead of granting +4 to Caster Level grants a +4 to "Sneak Attacker Level"? Such that a Rogue3/Fighter4 could take it and do +4d6 SA damage?

- Ron ^*^
SpoonyBard
04-10-07, 09:49 PM In Complete Scoundrel, there's a feat that says Rogue and Fighter levels stack for determining your sneak attack dice.

...At least I THOUGHT there was. Now I can't find it. :-(

There's one for Rogue/Swashbucklers though!
Werebat
04-10-07, 11:17 PM In Complete Scoundrel, there's a feat that says Rogue and Fighter levels stack for determining your sneak attack dice.

...At least I THOUGHT there was. Now I can't find it. :-(

There's one for Rogue/Swashbucklers though!

Argh, specifically stacking between Rogue and ONE other class is not really what I'm after... Actually looking for a Ranger/Rogue crossover if anything, or Ranger/Rogue/WeretouchedMaster.

It would be cool to be able to go Ranger2/Rogue3/WTM2 and still have full SA; cool enough to spend a feat on it I think.

- Ron ^*^
HalfMunchkin
04-10-07, 11:29 PM What book is WeretouchedMaster in?
Errean
04-10-07, 11:33 PM No, there is no published feat that does this. You'd have to write your own and propose it to your DM.
Werebat
04-11-07, 07:16 AM No, there is no published feat that does this. You'd have to write your own and propose it to your DM.

That's a pity. What do you think, would it sound balanced?

Practiced Sneak Attacker:
Prerequisites: Character must have a Sneak Attack ability
The character treats her level in one class granting the sneak attack ability as 4 higher than its actual level for purposes of sneak attacking only. This feat cannot raise the effective level of her sneak attacking class to higher than her character level.

Balanced? Worth taking? PEACH!

- Ron ^*^
Aracor
04-11-07, 10:26 AM Too powerful IMO.

Practiced spellcaster works because it still delays access to higher level spells. It's still a very good feat despite that.

With this feat, if you have one level in a class with sneak attack, why would you NOT take it? For a clever person, this is basically adding 2d6 damage for every attack with one feat. It's too much.
Egres
04-11-07, 10:33 AM What book is WeretouchedMaster in?

Eberron CS.
Frugal
04-11-07, 10:48 AM Wouldn't surprise me if there wasn't a rogue/ranger feat but a straight +4 to sneak attack just screams for abuse. I mean that just begs to be abused. Do a 4 level dip into fighter and you end up with +4 to BAB, 3 bonus feats, better HP, martial weapon profs and a full sneak attack progression? Yeah, where's the downside? By 20th level with Rogue 16/Fighter 4 you're at the full +10d6 sneak attack (actually, you could even stop at Rogue 15 if you wanted to take something in another class), you're at +19 BAB, trade a better fort save for 1 lower reflex save. All you lose is the bump to trap sense and 1 special ability, boo hoo.
Nadaka
04-11-07, 11:14 AM Using ToB:Bo9S...

It will cost you 2 feats, or a level of swordsage + 1 feat, or 2 levels of swordsage.

You can learn the level 3 shadow hand stance assassins stance, gives +2d6 sneak attack dice.

What you do is take martial study and pick up any shadow hand maneuver you qualify for (preferably one like level 2 cloak of deception (greater invisibility with 1 round duration) that synergizes with your sneak attack) and then the martial stance feat for the +2d6 sneak attack dice.
You can do this as early as level 12 even without taking martial classes and note that you can use your fighter bonus feats to gain these two feats as well.

You could do this at level 8 with 6 levels of rogue or fighter and 2 levels of swordsage without spending any feats as long as the 8th level is swordsage 2 due to the way initiator levels stack.
Finarin Panjoro
04-11-07, 12:00 PM I have such a feat in my campaign called Practiced Killer.

It looks virtually identical to your feat except that it adds this line. "This feat cannot raise your sneak attack damage above that of a rogue of your hit dice." This line prevents several abuses.
-It stops someone from taking another class that grants sneak attack (such as assassin) and then applying this feat to their rogue class effectively gaining sneak attack as though they were four levels above their character level (a rogue 5/assassin 5 with +8d6 sneak attack instead of +6d6).
-It also prevents taking the feat twice and applying it to two classes for double the impact. So a fighter 4/rogue 5/assassin 1 could not take the feat twice (once for rogue, once for assassin) and wind up with +8d6 sneak attack (as a 15th level rogue). The most he could do would be +5d6 sneak attack (as a 10th level rogue). It does however still allow them to apply it to two classes to compensate for more non-sneak attacking classes (so a rogue 5/assassin 1/fighter 8 could apply it to both rogue and assassin and sneak attack as a rogue 14).
-It also allows those who would normally outstrip a single class rogue via PrCs to continue to do so (such as a rogue 5/assassin 1 who will have +4d6 sneak attack, while a rogue 6 will have only +3d6). With this line the feat doesn't allow a fighter/rogue to sneak attack better than an optimized rogue/assassin. Which is as it should be.

Hope that helps.
Frugal
04-11-07, 12:14 PM I have such a feat in my campaign called Practiced Killer.

It looks virtually identical to your feat except that it adds this line. "This feat cannot raise your sneak attack damage above that of a rogue of your hit dice." This line prevents several abuses.

Practised spellcaster limits you from raising your caster level above your HD, I assumed the OP was placing a similar limitation on his proposed feat.

I still don't think this closes off abuse, look at my example of a Rogue 16/Fighter 4. What has he lost? Some skill points, a boost to trap sense, 1 lower reflex save and 1 special ability. What has he gained? Proficiency with all martial weapons (ignoring armour because you can only wear up to light armour for evasion to work), better HP (averages out to 12 more HP), 3 bonus feats, a better Fort save, +4 BAB (gaining a 4th iterative attack and putting him 1 short of a full-BAB progression). You'd have to be nuts to not take that.
StevenO
04-11-07, 02:44 PM In the long term it would probably be more balanced to just add a feat that just improves sneak attack damage:

Improved Sneak Attack:
Prereq: Sneak attack +Xd6 (to make sure the character already has the ability)
Benefit: add +1d6 to your Sneak attack damage
Note this feat may NOT be taken multiple times.

Although it is of use to a straight rogue it is far less powerful to a multiclass character which would usually gain +2d6 SA by allowing them to effectively SA at +4 levels.

If you want to allow a "Practiced Sneak" feat it should instead improve the character's ability to overcome Uncanny Dodge and other sneak atatck restriction. With Practiced Spellcaster the extra damage is often nice but at times the improved CL which allows you to overcome Spell Resistance is what makes the feat great; a "rogue" equivalent should do the same thing.
penchant
04-11-07, 03:15 PM In the long term it would probably be more balanced to just add a feat that just improves sneak attack damage:

Improved Sneak Attack:
Prereq: Sneak attack +Xd6 (to make sure the character already has the ability)
Benefit: add +1d6 to your Sneak attack damage
Note this feat may NOT be taken multiple times.

Although it is of use to a straight rogue it is far less powerful to a multiclass character which would usually gain +2d6 SA by allowing them to effectively SA at +4 levels.

If you want to allow a "Practiced Sneak" feat it should instead improve the character's ability to overcome Uncanny Dodge and other sneak atatck restriction. With Practiced Spellcaster the extra damage is often nice but at times the improved CL which allows you to overcome Spell Resistance is what makes the feat great; a "rogue" equivalent should do the same thing.

This is an Epic feat from the ELH. The prerq is 8D6. However, since theres nothing really epic about many of the 3.0 epic feats (many have already been downgraded) I would see little problem with this.
Emeramber
04-11-07, 03:41 PM Practised spellcaster limits you from raising your caster level above your HD, I assumed the OP was placing a similar limitation on his proposed feat.

I still don't think this closes off abuse, look at my example of a Rogue 16/Fighter 4. What has he lost? Some skill points, a boost to trap sense, 1 lower reflex save and 1 special ability. What has he gained? Proficiency with all martial weapons (ignoring armour because you can only wear up to light armour for evasion to work), better HP (averages out to 12 more HP), 3 bonus feats, a better Fort save, +4 BAB (gaining a 4th iterative attack and putting him 1 short of a full-BAB progression). You'd have to be nuts to not take that.

Actually, the BAB would be 16, not 19. 12 for the level 16 rogue, 4 for the 4 fighter levels. So yes, you would be trading a special ability, which is either a really useful ability or a feat, and 24 skill points, and spending a feat, to gain 12 HP, martial weapons, better fort, and +1 BAB (which is still enough for iterative attack.) Also, you may incur favored class problems.

And yes, it is good. There have been a number of pro-multiclass feats recently. Superior unarmed strike would allow a monk to take the same 4 level fighter dip for 16BAB and have full unarmed damage.
Frugal
04-11-07, 03:52 PM Actually, the BAB would be 16, not 19. 12 for the level 16 rogue, 4 for the 4 fighter levels. So yes, you would be trading a special ability, which is either a really useful ability or a feat, and 24 skill points, and spending a feat, to gain 12 HP, martial weapons, better fort, and +1 BAB (which is still enough for iterative attack.) Also, you may incur favored class problems.

Blah, I knew that BAB sounded too good, this is what happens when I post when I should be working. I still see it as pretty damn good though, probably too good.
Finarin Panjoro
04-11-07, 04:01 PM Practised spellcaster limits you from raising your caster level above your HD, I assumed the OP was placing a similar limitation on his proposed feat.

I still don't think this closes off abuse, look at my example of a Rogue 16/Fighter 4. What has he lost? Some skill points, a boost to trap sense, 1 lower reflex save and 1 special ability. What has he gained? Proficiency with all martial weapons (ignoring armour because you can only wear up to light armour for evasion to work), better HP (averages out to 12 more HP), 3 bonus feats, a better Fort save, +4 BAB (gaining a 4th iterative attack and putting him 1 short of a full-BAB progression). You'd have to be nuts to not take that. The problem is different with sneak attack than with spellcasting because sneak attack from multiple classes always stacks while spellcasting almost never does (unless it is +1 level of existing class). That's why I included the aforementioned limitation in my version of the feat.

I think a Rogue 16/Fighter 4 is a good example of why this feat is acceptable. It doesn't strike me as any more broken than many PrCs. You're overlooking the fact that if he multi-classes early in his career, losing 24 skill points will greatly affect CR appropriate threats, against which he doesn't have maxed ranks. Plus he really only gets 1 bonus feat out of the deal because he took Practiced Killer and lost a rogue special ability which is a bonus feat from a larger list.

Taking a snap shot of what he gains and loses at 20th level does not tell the tale of getting there.
jaelis
04-11-07, 04:21 PM I'd at least make the prereq something like SA +3d6 or better. Otherwise I think it makes a one-level dip into rogue too good.

Even then I don't know. If it were only two levels worth of SA, I'd certainly be fine with it.
Werebat
04-11-07, 05:09 PM [QUOTE=Emeramber;12060664]Actually, the BAB would be 16, not 19. 12 for the level 16 rogue, 4 for the 4 fighter levels. So yes, you would be trading a special ability, which is either a really useful ability or a feat, and 24 skill points, and spending a feat, to gain 12 HP, martial weapons, better fort, and +1 BAB (which is still enough for iterative attack.) Also, you may incur favored class problems.QUOTE]

Don't forget that you're also giving up Reflex saves, and multiclassing two low-Will save classes can put your Will save in the toilet (didn't do the numbers on this particular example though).

Then again, the 4 fighter levels DO grant three bonus fighter feats.

Personally I think the biggest hit here (for the lost rogue levels) is the loss of special ability and all those skill points.

- Ron ^*^
Werebat
04-11-07, 05:11 PM The problem is different with sneak attack than with spellcasting because sneak attack from multiple classes always stacks while spellcasting almost never does (unless it is +1 level of existing class). That's why I included the aforementioned limitation in my version of the feat.

I actually included a limitation in my original submission, right at the end, but I can see how yours is worded better. And yes, my intent was to create the same effect you have -- no one should be able to use this feat to get SA better than a straight rogue.

- Ron ^*^
Werebat
04-11-07, 05:14 PM I'd at least make the prereq something like SA +3d6 or better. Otherwise I think it makes a one-level dip into rogue too good.

Even then I don't know. If it were only two levels worth of SA, I'd certainly be fine with it.

I don't think two levels of SA really passes the "is it worth it" test.

Another consideration might be how this would affect PrC prerequisites for classes requiring Xd6 of SA.

- Ron ^*^
Frugal
04-11-07, 05:16 PM Don't forget that you're also giving up Reflex saves, and multiclassing two low-Will save classes can put your Will save in the toilet (didn't do the numbers on this particular example though).

A level 16 rogue has a +10 reflex save, a fighter gets a +1 to reflex at 3rd level which puts it up to +11, or 1 less than a 20th level rogue. Will save is no worse than a straight rogue (+6).
jaelis
04-11-07, 05:46 PM I don't think two levels of SA really passes the "is it worth it" test.

Yeah, you're probably right. 4 levels is probably fine, but I would raise the prereq. That takes away some concerns about PrCs too, since most require only 2d6 or 3d6 sneak attack. And you are right to worry... otherwise you'd be letting a wizard into, say, arcane trickster with only one level of rogue instead of three. Two extra caster levels is huge.
Werebat
04-11-07, 06:42 PM Yeah, you're probably right. 4 levels is probably fine, but I would raise the prereq. That takes away some concerns about PrCs too, since most require only 2d6 or 3d6 sneak attack. And you are right to worry... otherwise you'd be letting a wizard into, say, arcane trickster with only one level of rogue instead of three. Two extra caster levels is huge.

Well, you MIGHT be. Arcane Trickster has other prerequisites, IIRC.

Although a smart wizard can probably just burn lots of skill points to meet those.

Perhaps the feat could be worded such that this is impossible? Would make for some convoluted wording, though.

- Ron ^*^
jaelis
04-11-07, 07:28 PM Well, are you looking to encourage rogue dips? I don't think you should, myself. (Practised caster doesn't encourage wizard dips, after all.) If not, just upping the prereq is a fine solution.
Part-Human2
04-11-07, 08:44 PM How about Practiced Fighter (+2 fighter feats for 1 feat) or Practiced Rager (increases rage abilities) or Practiced everything! It's porn for optimizers! Make epic feats available at lower levels!

IMPROVED SNEAK ATTACK [EPIC]
Prerequisite: Sneak attack +8d6.
Benefit: Add +1d6 to the character�s sneak attack damage.
Special: This feat may be taken multiple times. Its effects stack.
Nadaka
04-11-07, 08:54 PM +1d6 sneak attack is comparable in power to weapon specialization. SA gives +1.5 average damage, but not against crit immunes and only when flanking or denied dex. And WS isn't even that good of a feat.
Werebat
04-11-07, 09:03 PM +1d6 sneak attack is comparable in power to weapon specialization. SA gives +1.5 average damage, but not against crit immunes and only when flanking or denied dex. And WS isn't even that good of a feat.

Actually 1d6 of SA gives +3.5 average damage, mitigated somewhat by the fact that it doesn't work on a lot of things and in a lot of situations.

However, a case can be made that a simple +1d6 to SA (or 2 effective levels of "sneak attacker") is featworthy.

- Ron ^*^
Nadaka
04-11-07, 09:05 PM Actually 1d6 of SA gives +3.5 average damage, mitigated somewhat by the fact that it doesn't work on a lot of things and in a lot of situations.

However, a case can be made that a simple +1d6 to SA (or 2 effective levels of "sneak attacker") is featworthy.

- Ron ^*^

and WS gives +2... 3.5-2 = 1.5, comparing the two feats. Perhaps I could have been a bit clearer.
Werebat
04-11-07, 09:05 PM How about Practiced Fighter (+2 fighter feats for 1 feat) or Practiced Rager (increases rage abilities) or Practiced everything! It's porn for optimizers! Make epic feats available at lower levels!

Yes, but +1d6 SA not allowed to go above what a straight rogue could get isn't quite as powerful as the epic feat, which CAN.

And, while it might be worth it to a fighter/rogue multiclass, who has oodles of feats, I don't see it as being worth it to what I had in mind (ranger/rogue/WTM shifter, who needs to bulk up on shifter feats). Damn.

- Ron ^*^
Werebat
04-11-07, 09:07 PM and WS gives +2... 3.5-2 = 1.5, comparing the two feats. Perhaps I could have been a bit clearer.

OK, I gotcha. Still, the point is that you could argue that +1d6 SA is worth a feat, which I had previously said was probably not true (changing my mind on that now, which doesn't help my character at all).

- Ron ^*^
Nadaka
04-11-07, 09:13 PM well, if you can afford 2 feats, and you are not shure that +2d6 SA alone is worth it, I recommend the Bo9S method, you get hide as a class skill for all classes (I'm not familiar with the shifter class so can't say if it helps), 1 round of greater invisibility per encounter and a stance that gives +2d6 sneak attack. And all you have to do is meet the initiator level prereq (easy by 9th for the first feat and 12th for the second).

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Werebat 04-10-07, 09:27 PM	Is there a feat anywhere that functions like Practiced Spellcaster, but instead of granting +4 to Caster Level grants a +4 to "Sneak Attacker Level"? Such that a Rogue3/Fighter4 could take it and do +4d6 SA damage? - Ron ^*^
SpoonyBard 04-10-07, 09:49 PM	In Complete Scoundrel, there's a feat that says Rogue and Fighter levels stack for determining your sneak attack dice. ...At least I THOUGHT there was. Now I can't find it. :-( There's one for Rogue/Swashbucklers though!
Werebat 04-10-07, 11:17 PM	In Complete Scoundrel, there's a feat that says Rogue and Fighter levels stack for determining your sneak attack dice. ...At least I THOUGHT there was. Now I can't find it. :-( There's one for Rogue/Swashbucklers though! Argh, specifically stacking between Rogue and ONE other class is not really what I'm after... Actually looking for a Ranger/Rogue crossover if anything, or Ranger/Rogue/WeretouchedMaster. It would be cool to be able to go Ranger2/Rogue3/WTM2 and still have full SA; cool enough to spend a feat on it I think. - Ron ^*^
HalfMunchkin 04-10-07, 11:29 PM	What book is WeretouchedMaster in?
Errean 04-10-07, 11:33 PM	No, there is no published feat that does this. You'd have to write your own and propose it to your DM.
Werebat 04-11-07, 07:16 AM	No, there is no published feat that does this. You'd have to write your own and propose it to your DM. That's a pity. What do you think, would it sound balanced? Practiced Sneak Attacker: Prerequisites: Character must have a Sneak Attack ability The character treats her level in one class granting the sneak attack ability as 4 higher than its actual level for purposes of sneak attacking only. This feat cannot raise the effective level of her sneak attacking class to higher than her character level. Balanced? Worth taking? PEACH! - Ron ^*^
Aracor 04-11-07, 10:26 AM	Too powerful IMO. Practiced spellcaster works because it still delays access to higher level spells. It's still a very good feat despite that. With this feat, if you have one level in a class with sneak attack, why would you NOT take it? For a clever person, this is basically adding 2d6 damage for every attack with one feat. It's too much.
Egres 04-11-07, 10:33 AM	What book is WeretouchedMaster in? Eberron CS.
Frugal 04-11-07, 10:48 AM	Wouldn't surprise me if there wasn't a rogue/ranger feat but a straight +4 to sneak attack just screams for abuse. I mean that just begs to be abused. Do a 4 level dip into fighter and you end up with +4 to BAB, 3 bonus feats, better HP, martial weapon profs and a full sneak attack progression? Yeah, where's the downside? By 20th level with Rogue 16/Fighter 4 you're at the full +10d6 sneak attack (actually, you could even stop at Rogue 15 if you wanted to take something in another class), you're at +19 BAB, trade a better fort save for 1 lower reflex save. All you lose is the bump to trap sense and 1 special ability, boo hoo.
Nadaka 04-11-07, 11:14 AM	Using ToB:Bo9S... It will cost you 2 feats, or a level of swordsage + 1 feat, or 2 levels of swordsage. You can learn the level 3 shadow hand stance assassins stance, gives +2d6 sneak attack dice. What you do is take martial study and pick up any shadow hand maneuver you qualify for (preferably one like level 2 cloak of deception (greater invisibility with 1 round duration) that synergizes with your sneak attack) and then the martial stance feat for the +2d6 sneak attack dice. You can do this as early as level 12 even without taking martial classes and note that you can use your fighter bonus feats to gain these two feats as well. You could do this at level 8 with 6 levels of rogue or fighter and 2 levels of swordsage without spending any feats as long as the 8th level is swordsage 2 due to the way initiator levels stack.
Finarin Panjoro 04-11-07, 12:00 PM	I have such a feat in my campaign called Practiced Killer. It looks virtually identical to your feat except that it adds this line. "This feat cannot raise your sneak attack damage above that of a rogue of your hit dice." This line prevents several abuses. -It stops someone from taking another class that grants sneak attack (such as assassin) and then applying this feat to their rogue class effectively gaining sneak attack as though they were four levels above their character level (a rogue 5/assassin 5 with +8d6 sneak attack instead of +6d6). -It also prevents taking the feat twice and applying it to two classes for double the impact. So a fighter 4/rogue 5/assassin 1 could not take the feat twice (once for rogue, once for assassin) and wind up with +8d6 sneak attack (as a 15th level rogue). The most he could do would be +5d6 sneak attack (as a 10th level rogue). It does however still allow them to apply it to two classes to compensate for more non-sneak attacking classes (so a rogue 5/assassin 1/fighter 8 could apply it to both rogue and assassin and sneak attack as a rogue 14). -It also allows those who would normally outstrip a single class rogue via PrCs to continue to do so (such as a rogue 5/assassin 1 who will have +4d6 sneak attack, while a rogue 6 will have only +3d6). With this line the feat doesn't allow a fighter/rogue to sneak attack better than an optimized rogue/assassin. Which is as it should be. Hope that helps.
Frugal 04-11-07, 12:14 PM	I have such a feat in my campaign called Practiced Killer. It looks virtually identical to your feat except that it adds this line. "This feat cannot raise your sneak attack damage above that of a rogue of your hit dice." This line prevents several abuses. Practised spellcaster limits you from raising your caster level above your HD, I assumed the OP was placing a similar limitation on his proposed feat. I still don't think this closes off abuse, look at my example of a Rogue 16/Fighter 4. What has he lost? Some skill points, a boost to trap sense, 1 lower reflex save and 1 special ability. What has he gained? Proficiency with all martial weapons (ignoring armour because you can only wear up to light armour for evasion to work), better HP (averages out to 12 more HP), 3 bonus feats, a better Fort save, +4 BAB (gaining a 4th iterative attack and putting him 1 short of a full-BAB progression). You'd have to be nuts to not take that.
StevenO 04-11-07, 02:44 PM	In the long term it would probably be more balanced to just add a feat that just improves sneak attack damage: Improved Sneak Attack: Prereq: Sneak attack +Xd6 (to make sure the character already has the ability) Benefit: add +1d6 to your Sneak attack damage Note this feat may NOT be taken multiple times. Although it is of use to a straight rogue it is far less powerful to a multiclass character which would usually gain +2d6 SA by allowing them to effectively SA at +4 levels. If you want to allow a "Practiced Sneak" feat it should instead improve the character's ability to overcome Uncanny Dodge and other sneak atatck restriction. With Practiced Spellcaster the extra damage is often nice but at times the improved CL which allows you to overcome Spell Resistance is what makes the feat great; a "rogue" equivalent should do the same thing.
penchant 04-11-07, 03:15 PM	In the long term it would probably be more balanced to just add a feat that just improves sneak attack damage: Improved Sneak Attack: Prereq: Sneak attack +Xd6 (to make sure the character already has the ability) Benefit: add +1d6 to your Sneak attack damage Note this feat may NOT be taken multiple times. Although it is of use to a straight rogue it is far less powerful to a multiclass character which would usually gain +2d6 SA by allowing them to effectively SA at +4 levels. If you want to allow a "Practiced Sneak" feat it should instead improve the character's ability to overcome Uncanny Dodge and other sneak atatck restriction. With Practiced Spellcaster the extra damage is often nice but at times the improved CL which allows you to overcome Spell Resistance is what makes the feat great; a "rogue" equivalent should do the same thing. This is an Epic feat from the ELH. The prerq is 8D6. However, since theres nothing really epic about many of the 3.0 epic feats (many have already been downgraded) I would see little problem with this.
Emeramber 04-11-07, 03:41 PM	Practised spellcaster limits you from raising your caster level above your HD, I assumed the OP was placing a similar limitation on his proposed feat. I still don't think this closes off abuse, look at my example of a Rogue 16/Fighter 4. What has he lost? Some skill points, a boost to trap sense, 1 lower reflex save and 1 special ability. What has he gained? Proficiency with all martial weapons (ignoring armour because you can only wear up to light armour for evasion to work), better HP (averages out to 12 more HP), 3 bonus feats, a better Fort save, +4 BAB (gaining a 4th iterative attack and putting him 1 short of a full-BAB progression). You'd have to be nuts to not take that. Actually, the BAB would be 16, not 19. 12 for the level 16 rogue, 4 for the 4 fighter levels. So yes, you would be trading a special ability, which is either a really useful ability or a feat, and 24 skill points, and spending a feat, to gain 12 HP, martial weapons, better fort, and +1 BAB (which is still enough for iterative attack.) Also, you may incur favored class problems. And yes, it is good. There have been a number of pro-multiclass feats recently. Superior unarmed strike would allow a monk to take the same 4 level fighter dip for 16BAB and have full unarmed damage.
Frugal 04-11-07, 03:52 PM	Actually, the BAB would be 16, not 19. 12 for the level 16 rogue, 4 for the 4 fighter levels. So yes, you would be trading a special ability, which is either a really useful ability or a feat, and 24 skill points, and spending a feat, to gain 12 HP, martial weapons, better fort, and +1 BAB (which is still enough for iterative attack.) Also, you may incur favored class problems. Blah, I knew that BAB sounded too good, this is what happens when I post when I should be working. I still see it as pretty damn good though, probably too good.
Finarin Panjoro 04-11-07, 04:01 PM	Practised spellcaster limits you from raising your caster level above your HD, I assumed the OP was placing a similar limitation on his proposed feat. I still don't think this closes off abuse, look at my example of a Rogue 16/Fighter 4. What has he lost? Some skill points, a boost to trap sense, 1 lower reflex save and 1 special ability. What has he gained? Proficiency with all martial weapons (ignoring armour because you can only wear up to light armour for evasion to work), better HP (averages out to 12 more HP), 3 bonus feats, a better Fort save, +4 BAB (gaining a 4th iterative attack and putting him 1 short of a full-BAB progression). You'd have to be nuts to not take that. The problem is different with sneak attack than with spellcasting because sneak attack from multiple classes always stacks while spellcasting almost never does (unless it is +1 level of existing class). That's why I included the aforementioned limitation in my version of the feat. I think a Rogue 16/Fighter 4 is a good example of why this feat is acceptable. It doesn't strike me as any more broken than many PrCs. You're overlooking the fact that if he multi-classes early in his career, losing 24 skill points will greatly affect CR appropriate threats, against which he doesn't have maxed ranks. Plus he really only gets 1 bonus feat out of the deal because he took Practiced Killer and lost a rogue special ability which is a bonus feat from a larger list. Taking a snap shot of what he gains and loses at 20th level does not tell the tale of getting there.
jaelis 04-11-07, 04:21 PM	I'd at least make the prereq something like SA +3d6 or better. Otherwise I think it makes a one-level dip into rogue too good. Even then I don't know. If it were only two levels worth of SA, I'd certainly be fine with it.
Werebat 04-11-07, 05:09 PM	[QUOTE=Emeramber;12060664]Actually, the BAB would be 16, not 19. 12 for the level 16 rogue, 4 for the 4 fighter levels. So yes, you would be trading a special ability, which is either a really useful ability or a feat, and 24 skill points, and spending a feat, to gain 12 HP, martial weapons, better fort, and +1 BAB (which is still enough for iterative attack.) Also, you may incur favored class problems.QUOTE] Don't forget that you're also giving up Reflex saves, and multiclassing two low-Will save classes can put your Will save in the toilet (didn't do the numbers on this particular example though). Then again, the 4 fighter levels DO grant three bonus fighter feats. Personally I think the biggest hit here (for the lost rogue levels) is the loss of special ability and all those skill points. - Ron ^*^
Werebat 04-11-07, 05:11 PM	The problem is different with sneak attack than with spellcasting because sneak attack from multiple classes always stacks while spellcasting almost never does (unless it is +1 level of existing class). That's why I included the aforementioned limitation in my version of the feat. I actually included a limitation in my original submission, right at the end, but I can see how yours is worded better. And yes, my intent was to create the same effect you have -- no one should be able to use this feat to get SA better than a straight rogue. - Ron ^*^
Werebat 04-11-07, 05:14 PM	I'd at least make the prereq something like SA +3d6 or better. Otherwise I think it makes a one-level dip into rogue too good. Even then I don't know. If it were only two levels worth of SA, I'd certainly be fine with it. I don't think two levels of SA really passes the "is it worth it" test. Another consideration might be how this would affect PrC prerequisites for classes requiring Xd6 of SA. - Ron ^*^
Frugal 04-11-07, 05:16 PM	Don't forget that you're also giving up Reflex saves, and multiclassing two low-Will save classes can put your Will save in the toilet (didn't do the numbers on this particular example though). A level 16 rogue has a +10 reflex save, a fighter gets a +1 to reflex at 3rd level which puts it up to +11, or 1 less than a 20th level rogue. Will save is no worse than a straight rogue (+6).
jaelis 04-11-07, 05:46 PM	I don't think two levels of SA really passes the "is it worth it" test. Yeah, you're probably right. 4 levels is probably fine, but I would raise the prereq. That takes away some concerns about PrCs too, since most require only 2d6 or 3d6 sneak attack. And you are right to worry... otherwise you'd be letting a wizard into, say, arcane trickster with only one level of rogue instead of three. Two extra caster levels is huge.
Werebat 04-11-07, 06:42 PM	Yeah, you're probably right. 4 levels is probably fine, but I would raise the prereq. That takes away some concerns about PrCs too, since most require only 2d6 or 3d6 sneak attack. And you are right to worry... otherwise you'd be letting a wizard into, say, arcane trickster with only one level of rogue instead of three. Two extra caster levels is huge. Well, you MIGHT be. Arcane Trickster has other prerequisites, IIRC. Although a smart wizard can probably just burn lots of skill points to meet those. Perhaps the feat could be worded such that this is impossible? Would make for some convoluted wording, though. - Ron ^*^
jaelis 04-11-07, 07:28 PM	Well, are you looking to encourage rogue dips? I don't think you should, myself. (Practised caster doesn't encourage wizard dips, after all.) If not, just upping the prereq is a fine solution.
Part-Human2 04-11-07, 08:44 PM	How about Practiced Fighter (+2 fighter feats for 1 feat) or Practiced Rager (increases rage abilities) or Practiced everything! It's porn for optimizers! Make epic feats available at lower levels! IMPROVED SNEAK ATTACK [EPIC] Prerequisite: Sneak attack +8d6. Benefit: Add +1d6 to the character�s sneak attack damage. Special: This feat may be taken multiple times. Its effects stack.
Nadaka 04-11-07, 08:54 PM	+1d6 sneak attack is comparable in power to weapon specialization. SA gives +1.5 average damage, but not against crit immunes and only when flanking or denied dex. And WS isn't even that good of a feat.
Werebat 04-11-07, 09:03 PM	+1d6 sneak attack is comparable in power to weapon specialization. SA gives +1.5 average damage, but not against crit immunes and only when flanking or denied dex. And WS isn't even that good of a feat. Actually 1d6 of SA gives +3.5 average damage, mitigated somewhat by the fact that it doesn't work on a lot of things and in a lot of situations. However, a case can be made that a simple +1d6 to SA (or 2 effective levels of "sneak attacker") is featworthy. - Ron ^*^
Nadaka 04-11-07, 09:05 PM	Actually 1d6 of SA gives +3.5 average damage, mitigated somewhat by the fact that it doesn't work on a lot of things and in a lot of situations. However, a case can be made that a simple +1d6 to SA (or 2 effective levels of "sneak attacker") is featworthy. - Ron ^*^ and WS gives +2... 3.5-2 = 1.5, comparing the two feats. Perhaps I could have been a bit clearer.
Werebat 04-11-07, 09:05 PM	How about Practiced Fighter (+2 fighter feats for 1 feat) or Practiced Rager (increases rage abilities) or Practiced everything! It's porn for optimizers! Make epic feats available at lower levels! Yes, but +1d6 SA not allowed to go above what a straight rogue could get isn't quite as powerful as the epic feat, which CAN. And, while it might be worth it to a fighter/rogue multiclass, who has oodles of feats, I don't see it as being worth it to what I had in mind (ranger/rogue/WTM shifter, who needs to bulk up on shifter feats). Damn. - Ron ^*^
Werebat 04-11-07, 09:07 PM	and WS gives +2... 3.5-2 = 1.5, comparing the two feats. Perhaps I could have been a bit clearer. OK, I gotcha. Still, the point is that you could argue that +1d6 SA is worth a feat, which I had previously said was probably not true (changing my mind on that now, which doesn't help my character at all). - Ron ^*^
Nadaka 04-11-07, 09:13 PM	well, if you can afford 2 feats, and you are not shure that +2d6 SA alone is worth it, I recommend the Bo9S method, you get hide as a class skill for all classes (I'm not familiar with the shifter class so can't say if it helps), 1 round of greater invisibility per encounter and a stance that gives +2d6 sneak attack. And all you have to do is meet the initiator level prereq (easy by 9th for the first feat and 12th for the second).