Precocious Apprentice and DD [Archive] - Wizards Community

Precocious Apprentice and DD [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
jaelis
11-09-07, 09:30 AM All this thinking about Precocious Apprentice made me wonder...

If a sorc 1/barb 4 had PA and took a level of dragon disciple, could he use his bonus slots from DD for 2nd level spells?

It says

Bonus Spells

Dragon disciples gain bonus spells as they gain levels in this prestige class, as if from having a high ability score, as given on Table: The Dragon Disciple. A bonus spell can be added to any level of spells the disciple already has the ability to cast.

One the one hand, bonus spells from high ability scores aren't available until your class level is high enough to cast them normally. But on the other hand, the character certainly has the ability to cast 2nd level spells.

Has this been brought up before? Seems like it would make DD a lot more viable. Works nice for a bard 2/barb 3 too.
risner
11-09-07, 10:48 AM Has this been brought up before? Seems like it would make DD a lot more viable. Works nice for a bard 2/barb 3 too.

It wouldn't help due to the same problems:
1) You can't cast 2nd level spells, so you can't gain a 2nd level slot from DD.
2) Even if you could, it would function the same as bonus slots which would not function for a sorcerer 1.
jaelis
11-09-07, 10:55 AM I know you feel that a character with PA can't cast second level spells. I respect your right to that opinion, though I don't really understand it.

So perhaps I should more narrowly ask, among people who accept that PA lets you cast 2nd level spells, would you allow a DD to add his bonus spells as 2nd level? Personally, I'm less interested in what you think RAW says than in how you think it should work.
risner
11-09-07, 01:10 PM I know you feel that a character with PA can't cast second level spells. I respect your right to that opinion, though I don't really understand it.

So perhaps I should more narrowly ask, among people who accept that PA lets you cast 2nd level spells, would you allow a DD to add his bonus spells as 2nd level? Personally, I'm less interested in what you think RAW says than in how you think it should work.

Asked that way, if a DM believes PA grants 2nd level slots, then yes DD would be able to add 2nd level slots (which would then be able to be used for any spell.)

Even if PA granted 2nd level slots, a DM shouldn't allow (should house rules if needed) DD to not provide slots higher than 1st if you can normally only cast 1st level spells.
jaelis
11-09-07, 01:23 PM Even if PA granted 2nd level slots, a DM shouldn't allow (should house rules if needed) DD to not provide slots higher than 1st if you can normally only cast 1st level spells.
So you think it would be abusive to allow it in this case? DD is generally on the weak side, and it's hard to get much use out of the bonus spells it grants. I'm not sure it would be unbalancing to allow PA as a way around it, but you think it would?

(Note you'd only every have that one 2nd level spell available. You could just cast it a lot.)
gotbrain
11-09-07, 02:27 PM I would allow it and in fact believe a high ability score would do the same for a PC with the PA feat. If you have a slot for that level then you should be allowed to get bonuses to that slot, no matter the source. Take the Bard as an example; the only way he gets to cast 1st level spells at 2nd level is WITH bonuses.
risner
11-09-07, 06:05 PM So you think it would be abusive to allow it in this case? DD is generally on the weak side, and it's hard to get much use out of the bonus spells it grants. I'm not sure it would be unbalancing to allow PA as a way around it, but you think it would?

To be honest, I don't think it would be unbalancing. I just wouldn't allow it as I see it as going against the order of the game.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
jaelis 11-09-07, 09:30 AM	All this thinking about Precocious Apprentice made me wonder... If a sorc 1/barb 4 had PA and took a level of dragon disciple, could he use his bonus slots from DD for 2nd level spells? It says Bonus Spells Dragon disciples gain bonus spells as they gain levels in this prestige class, as if from having a high ability score, as given on Table: The Dragon Disciple. A bonus spell can be added to any level of spells the disciple already has the ability to cast. One the one hand, bonus spells from high ability scores aren't available until your class level is high enough to cast them normally. But on the other hand, the character certainly has the ability to cast 2nd level spells. Has this been brought up before? Seems like it would make DD a lot more viable. Works nice for a bard 2/barb 3 too.
risner 11-09-07, 10:48 AM	Has this been brought up before? Seems like it would make DD a lot more viable. Works nice for a bard 2/barb 3 too. It wouldn't help due to the same problems: 1) You can't cast 2nd level spells, so you can't gain a 2nd level slot from DD. 2) Even if you could, it would function the same as bonus slots which would not function for a sorcerer 1.
jaelis 11-09-07, 10:55 AM	I know you feel that a character with PA can't cast second level spells. I respect your right to that opinion, though I don't really understand it. So perhaps I should more narrowly ask, among people who accept that PA lets you cast 2nd level spells, would you allow a DD to add his bonus spells as 2nd level? Personally, I'm less interested in what you think RAW says than in how you think it should work.
risner 11-09-07, 01:10 PM	I know you feel that a character with PA can't cast second level spells. I respect your right to that opinion, though I don't really understand it. So perhaps I should more narrowly ask, among people who accept that PA lets you cast 2nd level spells, would you allow a DD to add his bonus spells as 2nd level? Personally, I'm less interested in what you think RAW says than in how you think it should work. Asked that way, if a DM believes PA grants 2nd level slots, then yes DD would be able to add 2nd level slots (which would then be able to be used for any spell.) Even if PA granted 2nd level slots, a DM shouldn't allow (should house rules if needed) DD to not provide slots higher than 1st if you can normally only cast 1st level spells.
jaelis 11-09-07, 01:23 PM	Even if PA granted 2nd level slots, a DM shouldn't allow (should house rules if needed) DD to not provide slots higher than 1st if you can normally only cast 1st level spells. So you think it would be abusive to allow it in this case? DD is generally on the weak side, and it's hard to get much use out of the bonus spells it grants. I'm not sure it would be unbalancing to allow PA as a way around it, but you think it would? (Note you'd only every have that one 2nd level spell available. You could just cast it a lot.)
gotbrain 11-09-07, 02:27 PM	I would allow it and in fact believe a high ability score would do the same for a PC with the PA feat. If you have a slot for that level then you should be allowed to get bonuses to that slot, no matter the source. Take the Bard as an example; the only way he gets to cast 1st level spells at 2nd level is WITH bonuses.
risner 11-09-07, 06:05 PM	So you think it would be abusive to allow it in this case? DD is generally on the weak side, and it's hard to get much use out of the bonus spells it grants. I'm not sure it would be unbalancing to allow PA as a way around it, but you think it would? To be honest, I don't think it would be unbalancing. I just wouldn't allow it as I see it as going against the order of the game.