Precocious Apprentice [Archive] - Wizards Community

Precocious Apprentice [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
InfiniteZero
07-19-07, 03:07 AM If I am reposting I apologize I just didn't feel like looking through several pages of for this one feat.

Precocious Apprentice from the Complete Arcane we all know it by now. My question is, if I am a wizard is the 2nd level spell I receive from PA a spell I prepare or is it a spell I spontaniously cast? I know it comes to little value because I can only use that slot for that spell but if I am a level one human and take, Energy Substitution and Precocious Apprentice then that has effect. Because if I spontaneously cast "searing Ray" then it is a full round action to make it deal sonic damage, but if I prepare it ahead of time it's only a standard action. Well thank you for your time and attention.

Also it should be noted something else. If I prepare it from my spellbook like a normal spell I get to know one more 2nd level spell for free and I can class dip for levels 3 and 4 instead before becoming an Ultimate Magi.

Also do my Soc and Wiz levels stack for the purposes of my familiar?
Yaeri
07-19-07, 07:32 AM I don't know anything about precious apprentice, but I can say that for all purposes of your familiar, your sorcerer and wizard levels do stack.
Need_A_Life
07-19-07, 07:40 AM Provided you succeed on your spellcraft check, I see no problem with it flavour-wise...

Of course, Preconsicous Apprentice is a fairly broken feat for its level (cast a level 2 spell at level 1 for a negligible spellcraft check) and i would watch the player carefully to make sure it wasn't abused too badly.
Puca
07-19-07, 09:52 AM Precocious Apprentice from the Complete Arcane we all know it by now. My question is, if I am a wizard is the 2nd level spell I receive from PA a spell I prepare or is it a spell I spontaniously cast? Wizards prepare spells. There is nothing in the text of the feat that would seem to override this.

I know it comes to little value because I can only use that slot for that spell but if I am a level one human and take, Energy Substitution and Precocious Apprentice then that has effect.Just so you know, Energy Substitution required 5 ranks in Knowledge (arcana) to take, so by they time a regular wizard can qualify for this, he can cast second-levels normally.

Because if I spontaneously cast "searing Ray" then it is a full round action to make it deal sonic damage,Just FYI, sonic isnt a choice for Energy Substitution in 3.5

Also it should be noted something else. If I prepare it from my spellbook like a normal spell I get to know one more 2nd level spell for free and I can class dip for levels 3 and 4 instead before becoming an Ultimate Magi.Im not 100% sure what you mean, but, if I read you right, you are asking if Precocious Apprentice will constitute being "able to cast second-level spells" for the purpose of meeting the prereqs of a PrC?

Thats up to your DM. Id tell you no.
1) You arent "able to cast." You are "able to try." You cant cast the spell. You might, depending on the circumstances, be able to cast it. These arent the same thing.

2) Such prereqs are there, in part, to control the character level at which you can enter. I frown efforts to get around them.

But those are only my opinions.

Also do my Soc and Wiz levels stack for the purposes of my familiar?As already stated, yes.
Tealgorthian
07-19-07, 10:40 AM 2) Such prereqs are there, in part, to control the character level at which you can enter. I frown efforts to get around them.

I just wanted to point out that all this entry method really does is change the your effective spell level of spells you can cast for your Wizard spells in most spell progression PrCs. Without fail they almost all require X ranks in a skill, and there is no known way to get around the skill rank cap ;)

(official) Legality aside, I really don't mind it in my games
Puca
07-19-07, 11:24 AM Without fail they almost all require X ranks in a skill, and there is no known way to get around the skill rank cap ;)While without fail almost all might, without fail, some do. A good example is the Mystic Theurge, which, using the Precocious Apprentice trick, you can qualify for as a cleric 3/wizard 1. Not only is that two-levels sooner than would normally be allowed, you are progressing in two distinct caster-classes while only being one-level behind the straight cleric, as opposed to three like it seems to have been intended.
Two, significant balance issues result from this trick.

Again, up to the DM, but I think no is the better way to go.
Tealgorthian
07-19-07, 11:35 AM While without fail almost all might, without fail, some do. A good example is the Mystic Theurge, which, using the Precocious Apprentice trick, you can qualify for as a cleric 3/wizard 1. Not only is that two-levels sooner than would normally be allowed, you are progressing in two distinct caster-classes while only being one-level behind the straight cleric, as opposed to three like it seems to have been intended.
Two, significant balance issues result from this trick.

Again, up to the DM, but I think no is the better way to go.

And you are -still- worse than a cleric of the same level. No armor, half (roughly) the HPs, worse BAB, worse saves.

If you use the technical reading of the Precocious Apprentice feat, you lose the 2nd level spell slot as soon as you get second level spells. It never actually calls out Arcane spells. Hit second level divine spells, and get a bonus 2nd level divine slot, and lose your 2nd level Arcane slot.

Again, I don't see a problem using the feat to circumvent the entry requirements, but some people do.

There are lots of ways it can go, so just ask your DM. You'll get 400 pages of back and forth talking about why it can be done, why it should be done, why it can't be done, and why it shouldn't be done, that eventually degenerates into personal attacks and WizO warnings ;)

I don't see an issue with it, Puca does is a prime example.

Then again, I wouldn't take Mystic Theurge given how craptacular its epic progression is.
risner
07-19-07, 02:19 PM 1) I am a wizard is the 2nd level spell I receive from PA a spell I prepare or is it a spell I spontaniously cast?

2) cast "searing Ray" then it is a full round action to make it deal sonic damage,

3) If I prepare it from my spellbook like a normal spell I get to know one more 2nd level spell for free

4) and I can class dip for levels 3 and 4 instead before becoming an Ultimate Magi.

5) Also do my Soc and Wiz levels stack for the purposes of my familiar?
1) You do neither, you have one 2nd level spell so can use via a caster level check. You don't cast it, so you don't prepare it or spontaneously cast it.

2) You can't deal sonic damage with Energy Substitution, since Sonic is not an Energy (PHB glossary.)

3) How are you getting a free 2nd level spell. You get the one you took from the Precocious Apprentice spell and no more 2nd levels spells. When you gain 3rd level (or 4th if Sorcerer) then you gain a new bonus 2nd level slot.

4) You can not use this (or frankly anything else) to early enter UM.

5) Yes
Baron Rod
07-20-07, 01:20 AM 1. When you are high enough level to cast 2nd level spells on your own, you don't lose anything. Precocious Apprentice now changes to add a extra spell slot of 2nd level.

2. It is not a spellcraft check to be able to cast the spell. It is a caster level check, DC = 6. So 25% of the time you would be able to cast a second level spell when 1st level.

3. Feats are in basic, designed to help you achieve Prestige classes. When you have the requirements you can take it. Why not Mystic Theruge?

4. If no "rules" are being broken use it to the fullest and have get what you can.

Baron Rod

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
InfiniteZero 07-19-07, 03:07 AM	If I am reposting I apologize I just didn't feel like looking through several pages of for this one feat. Precocious Apprentice from the Complete Arcane we all know it by now. My question is, if I am a wizard is the 2nd level spell I receive from PA a spell I prepare or is it a spell I spontaniously cast? I know it comes to little value because I can only use that slot for that spell but if I am a level one human and take, Energy Substitution and Precocious Apprentice then that has effect. Because if I spontaneously cast "searing Ray" then it is a full round action to make it deal sonic damage, but if I prepare it ahead of time it's only a standard action. Well thank you for your time and attention. Also it should be noted something else. If I prepare it from my spellbook like a normal spell I get to know one more 2nd level spell for free and I can class dip for levels 3 and 4 instead before becoming an Ultimate Magi. Also do my Soc and Wiz levels stack for the purposes of my familiar?
Yaeri 07-19-07, 07:32 AM	I don't know anything about precious apprentice, but I can say that for all purposes of your familiar, your sorcerer and wizard levels do stack.
Need_A_Life 07-19-07, 07:40 AM	Provided you succeed on your spellcraft check, I see no problem with it flavour-wise... Of course, Preconsicous Apprentice is a fairly broken feat for its level (cast a level 2 spell at level 1 for a negligible spellcraft check) and i would watch the player carefully to make sure it wasn't abused too badly.
Puca 07-19-07, 09:52 AM	Precocious Apprentice from the Complete Arcane we all know it by now. My question is, if I am a wizard is the 2nd level spell I receive from PA a spell I prepare or is it a spell I spontaniously cast? Wizards prepare spells. There is nothing in the text of the feat that would seem to override this. I know it comes to little value because I can only use that slot for that spell but if I am a level one human and take, Energy Substitution and Precocious Apprentice then that has effect.Just so you know, Energy Substitution required 5 ranks in Knowledge (arcana) to take, so by they time a regular wizard can qualify for this, he can cast second-levels normally. Because if I spontaneously cast "searing Ray" then it is a full round action to make it deal sonic damage,Just FYI, sonic isnt a choice for Energy Substitution in 3.5 Also it should be noted something else. If I prepare it from my spellbook like a normal spell I get to know one more 2nd level spell for free and I can class dip for levels 3 and 4 instead before becoming an Ultimate Magi.Im not 100% sure what you mean, but, if I read you right, you are asking if Precocious Apprentice will constitute being "able to cast second-level spells" for the purpose of meeting the prereqs of a PrC? Thats up to your DM. Id tell you no. 1) You arent "able to cast." You are "able to try." You cant cast the spell. You might, depending on the circumstances, be able to cast it. These arent the same thing. 2) Such prereqs are there, in part, to control the character level at which you can enter. I frown efforts to get around them. But those are only my opinions. Also do my Soc and Wiz levels stack for the purposes of my familiar?As already stated, yes.
Tealgorthian 07-19-07, 10:40 AM	2) Such prereqs are there, in part, to control the character level at which you can enter. I frown efforts to get around them. I just wanted to point out that all this entry method really does is change the your effective spell level of spells you can cast for your Wizard spells in most spell progression PrCs. Without fail they almost all require X ranks in a skill, and there is no known way to get around the skill rank cap ;) (official) Legality aside, I really don't mind it in my games
Puca 07-19-07, 11:24 AM	Without fail they almost all require X ranks in a skill, and there is no known way to get around the skill rank cap ;)While without fail almost all might, without fail, some do. A good example is the Mystic Theurge, which, using the Precocious Apprentice trick, you can qualify for as a cleric 3/wizard 1. Not only is that two-levels sooner than would normally be allowed, you are progressing in two distinct caster-classes while only being one-level behind the straight cleric, as opposed to three like it seems to have been intended. Two, significant balance issues result from this trick. Again, up to the DM, but I think no is the better way to go.
Tealgorthian 07-19-07, 11:35 AM	While without fail almost all might, without fail, some do. A good example is the Mystic Theurge, which, using the Precocious Apprentice trick, you can qualify for as a cleric 3/wizard 1. Not only is that two-levels sooner than would normally be allowed, you are progressing in two distinct caster-classes while only being one-level behind the straight cleric, as opposed to three like it seems to have been intended. Two, significant balance issues result from this trick. Again, up to the DM, but I think no is the better way to go. And you are -still- worse than a cleric of the same level. No armor, half (roughly) the HPs, worse BAB, worse saves. If you use the technical reading of the Precocious Apprentice feat, you lose the 2nd level spell slot as soon as you get second level spells. It never actually calls out Arcane spells. Hit second level divine spells, and get a bonus 2nd level divine slot, and lose your 2nd level Arcane slot. Again, I don't see a problem using the feat to circumvent the entry requirements, but some people do. There are lots of ways it can go, so just ask your DM. You'll get 400 pages of back and forth talking about why it can be done, why it should be done, why it can't be done, and why it shouldn't be done, that eventually degenerates into personal attacks and WizO warnings ;) I don't see an issue with it, Puca does is a prime example. Then again, I wouldn't take Mystic Theurge given how craptacular its epic progression is.
risner 07-19-07, 02:19 PM	1) I am a wizard is the 2nd level spell I receive from PA a spell I prepare or is it a spell I spontaniously cast? 2) cast "searing Ray" then it is a full round action to make it deal sonic damage, 3) If I prepare it from my spellbook like a normal spell I get to know one more 2nd level spell for free 4) and I can class dip for levels 3 and 4 instead before becoming an Ultimate Magi. 5) Also do my Soc and Wiz levels stack for the purposes of my familiar? 1) You do neither, you have one 2nd level spell so can use via a caster level check. You don't cast it, so you don't prepare it or spontaneously cast it. 2) You can't deal sonic damage with Energy Substitution, since Sonic is not an Energy (PHB glossary.) 3) How are you getting a free 2nd level spell. You get the one you took from the Precocious Apprentice spell and no more 2nd levels spells. When you gain 3rd level (or 4th if Sorcerer) then you gain a new bonus 2nd level slot. 4) You can not use this (or frankly anything else) to early enter UM. 5) Yes
Baron Rod 07-20-07, 01:20 AM	1. When you are high enough level to cast 2nd level spells on your own, you don't lose anything. Precocious Apprentice now changes to add a extra spell slot of 2nd level. 2. It is not a spellcraft check to be able to cast the spell. It is a caster level check, DC = 6. So 25% of the time you would be able to cast a second level spell when 1st level. 3. Feats are in basic, designed to help you achieve Prestige classes. When you have the requirements you can take it. Why not Mystic Theruge? 4. If no "rules" are being broken use it to the fullest and have get what you can. Baron Rod