Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Tectorman 04-10-07, 04:33 PM	A monk can flurry with a special monk weapon. He is in no way required to wield two of them in order to alternate back and forth. Thus, he could, in theory, have one arm chopped off and still (assuming he's at least a 15th level monk) attack with, say, a kama a full five times. Now, let's give him back his arm and a quarterstaff to boot. He treats each end as a separate weapon for flurry of blows. However, as with the kama mentioned above, he is in no way required to use both ends. Thus, he can (and since it's appropriately sized for him, he must) hold it in two hands and attack with only one end. While flurrying, he may only apply 1 x his Str bonus to damage. So, what does the quarterstaff count as if he were to apply Power Attack to it? He's holding it in two hands and attacking with one end of it, so is it a two-handed weapon? On the other hand, the whole separate weapon for flurry of blows issue would seem to exclude using it as a two-handed weapon, even though he's not exactly two-weapon fighting with it. So which is it? Also, suppose someone (say, an idiot who wanted to be a Samurai out of Complete Warrior) applies Power Attack to a bastard sword (or a dwarf fighter uses a dwarven waraxe). He's now proficient with it and treats it as a one-handed weapon, whereas other characters not proficient with it specifically but still proficient with all martial weapons get to treat it as a two-handed weapon. Did this person just get screwed or can he still hold it two-handedly and treat it as a two-handed weapon for the purposes of Power Attack?
glacialcat 04-10-07, 04:41 PM	Anyone proficient in martial weapons can use a long sword in one hand. Anyone able to use a long sword in one hand, can instead use it in two hands to get the bonus to damage from STR and increased Power Attack damage. Its the same way with the bastard sword. Just because you can wield it in one hand doesn't mean you have to.
Tectorman 04-10-07, 04:46 PM	So, except for light weapons, Power Attack is all dependant on how you wield it, not what type it is. Okay, thanks. Still need help with my monk question.
tarkin 04-10-07, 04:58 PM	The Quarterstaff is a two handed weapon. As such, you are REQUIRED to use two hands to hold it. Even if you are using Flurry. That is the difference between a one handed weapon and a two handed weapon.
jaelis 04-10-07, 05:01 PM	Seems like the monk should get the 2:1 power attack ratio. There's no special rules for flurry vs power attack, so it should just work like normal.
haferka 04-10-07, 05:53 PM	Flurry still uses "Unarmed Strike" as the weapon.. which is a viable weapon for Power Attack.
Tectorman 04-10-07, 06:56 PM	The Quarterstaff is a two handed weapon. As such, you are REQUIRED to use two hands to hold it. Even if you are using Flurry. That is the difference between a one handed weapon and a two handed weapon. True, but holding a double weapon and attacking with both ends with Power Attack results in both ends taking whatever penalty you decide to take, but only the end treated as a one-handed weapon gets the benefit on damage (or so various threads and the FAQ have led me to believe). In other words, Ranger Gobe uses a double-bladed sword and takes a Power Attack penalty of 4 to his attack rolls with both ends. He treats one end as a light weapon and one end as a one-handed weapon. The end treated as a light weapon receives a bonus of 0 to damage as a result of Power Attack and the end treated as a one-handed weapon receives a bonus of +4 to damage as a result of Power Attack. In simpler language, I know you have to hold a two-handed weapon in two hands even when flurrying. My question was whether the phrase "counts each end as a separate end when flurrying" excludes holding it two-handed, attacking with only one end of it, and getting a 2 for 1 bonus to damage as a result of Power Attack.
Empiro 04-10-07, 08:22 PM	According to the FAQ, you don't have to make all your attacks in a round with the same weapon even. So as long as you're not taking an extra offhand attack with your staff, you ought to be treated as fighting with one weapon (in two hands), giving you the 2 handed bonus for power attacking and all other modifiers.
The_Unseen_Illusion 04-16-07, 02:00 AM	it says in the PHB that a when you use a double weapon for mulitiple attacks, one end is a light weapon and the other end is an one handed weapon. but Empiro is right, if you can manage to use FoB with just one end of a quarterstaff, you can use Power Attack's 2:1 ratio. but imagine that, a monk Flurrying of Blows someone with just one end. I just picture someone with a wooden baseball bat beating someone senseless thats on the ground
Tectorman 04-16-07, 08:08 AM	To me, the image that comes to mind is the Chosen One on Kung Pow: Enter the Fist having the crap beat out of him while training to beat Master Pain, I mean, Betty. But actually, realistically speaking, it is very common to use only one end of a quarterstaff to hit. You get better reach (that by the way was realism, so no, I am not reading reach into what a quarterstaff should do; longstaff on the other hand...).
Nom 04-16-07, 06:36 PM	if you can manage to use FoB with just one end of a quarterstaff, you can use Power Attack's 2:1 ratio.That could be debatable. The FoB rules unconditionally state that any weapon used in a flurry receives x1 Str bonus to damage ("not Str bonus x1 1/2 or x1/2"). While the Str bonus rules and the PA rules are not explicitly linked, this strongly suggests that flurry weapons get no special handedness effects.
jaelis 04-16-07, 07:03 PM	Yes, and a DM might reasonably decide to play that way. But then the other player with a primary natural weapon would be within his rights to start agitating for a 2:1 ratio on that.
G_Mancer 04-16-07, 07:19 PM	A monk can flurry with a special monk weapon. He is in no way required to wield two of them in order to alternate back and forth. Thus, he could, in theory, have one arm chopped off and still (assuming he's at least a 15th level monk) attack with, say, a kama a full five times. Now, let's give him back his arm and a quarterstaff to boot. He treats each end as a separate weapon for flurry of blows. However, as with the kama mentioned above, he is in no way required to use both ends. Thus, he can (and since it's appropriately sized for him, he must) hold it in two hands and attack with only one end. While flurrying, he may only apply 1 x his Str bonus to damage. So, what does the quarterstaff count as if he were to apply Power Attack to it? He's holding it in two hands and attacking with one end of it, so is it a two-handed weapon? On the other hand, the whole separate weapon for flurry of blows issue would seem to exclude using it as a two-handed weapon, even though he's not exactly two-weapon fighting with it. So which is it? Also, suppose someone (say, an idiot who wanted to be a Samurai out of Complete Warrior) applies Power Attack to a bastard sword (or a dwarf fighter uses a dwarven waraxe). He's now proficient with it and treats it as a one-handed weapon, whereas other characters not proficient with it specifically but still proficient with all martial weapons get to treat it as a two-handed weapon. Did this person just get screwed or can he still hold it two-handedly and treat it as a two-handed weapon for the purposes of Power Attack? do you use one end of the greataxe?
Kouk 04-17-07, 12:49 AM	I see the OPs point, but wouldn't allowing Power Attack with a quarterstaff make it significantly better than the other monk weapons (disregarding damage types)? The others are all light weapons.
j_gunder 04-17-07, 02:26 AM	Regarding Kouk's comment about the quarterstaff being "better than all the other monk weapons": Here's the relevant text regarding monks wielding weapons in a flurry: When using weapons as part of a flurry of blows, a monk applies her Strength bonus (not Str bonus × 1½ or ×½) to her damage rolls for all successful attacks, whether she wields a weapon in one or both hands. The monk can’t use any weapon other than a special monk weapon as part of a flurry of blows. This does not, of course, make any mention of power attack...I would rule, personally, that a power-attacking, flurrying monk would only get 1:1 no matter what weapon he was using. Is there an official ruling on this, somewhere?
Tectorman 04-17-07, 11:23 AM	do you use one end of the greataxe? You quoted a large post of mine (or a large part of a post of mine). Could you narrow that down so that I can tell where you got greataxe from?
Nezkrul 04-17-07, 11:37 AM	This does not, of course, make any mention of power attack...I would rule, personally, that a power-attacking, flurrying monk would only get 1:1 no matter what weapon he was using. Just curious as to why, after stating the bolded part in the above quote, you chose to rule against RAW? RAW when you use a 2 handed weapon and power attack with it, you get +2 damage for every -1 to hit with it. Since Flurry's rules do not mention Power Attack, wouldn't it be simple to; instead of making up your own rules, go with the rules that are already in existence?
G_Mancer 04-17-07, 12:59 PM	You quoted a large post of mine (or a large part of a post of mine). Could you narrow that down so that I can tell where you got greataxe from? power attack is 2:1 with two handed weapons. atacking with one end of your quaterstaff doesn't change that your useing both arms. you would get 2:1. note: when used as a double weapon, one side is considered light and wont get the bonus, but keeps the penatly. on a normal attack you'd get 1.5X str bonus, but with flurry yo ucan only have 1x str bonus. nothing is said about an exception for power attack. power attack means you take a slight bit more time to attack(making it easier to evade by knowing where it's going or something) to add more damage. flurry of blows makes you swing fast enough to get in another attack. it's a not-too-shabby thing to do. pretty much it
Tectorman 04-17-07, 02:48 PM	to G Mancer: Okay, I understand the second post, but I'm still wondering why you mentioned greataxe. Also, you said "one end of the greataxe." As opposed to what? It ain't a double weapon. Sorry if that's being nitpicky, but I just want to be sure there wasn't something else you meant to say that I just didn't pick up on.
j_gunder 04-17-07, 09:29 PM	Regarding Nezkrul's statement: Just curious as to why, after stating the bolded part in the above quote, you chose to rule against RAW? RAW when you use a 2 handed weapon and power attack with it, you get +2 damage for every -1 to hit with it. Since Flurry's rules do not mention Power Attack, wouldn't it be simple to; instead of making up your own rules, go with the rules that are already in existence? Why doesn't a monk get 1-1/2x str when wielding a two-handed weapon in a flurry? I understand that "because the RAW says so" is the reason, but the logic behind that is what leads me to believe that power attack might not work to achieve a 2:1 strength ration in a flurry. I'm not necessarily married to my interpretation of it...that's why I posted the question "Has there ever been an official ruling on this?" It was just a gut feeling after reading the OP and the relevant text... I'm going with Nom's logic on this, as it seems reasonable to me: That could be debatable. The FoB rules unconditionally state that any weapon used in a flurry receives x1 Str bonus to damage ("not Str bonus x1 1/2 or x1/2"). While the Str bonus rules and the PA rules are not explicitly linked, this strongly suggests that flurry weapons get no special handedness effects. Should a monk have to designate which end of the quarterstaff he is attacking with in order to use it as a two-handed weapon and get 2:1 power ratio? The character can also choose to use a double weapon two handed, attacking with only one end of it. A creature wielding a double weapon in one hand can’t use it as a double weapon—only one end of the weapon can be used in any given round. That's from the SRD...double weapons AREN'T a one-handed weapon plus a light weapon, they are just treated as if they were...this quote makes it pretty clear that a monk could definitely use one end of a quarterstaff two-handed to get 2:1 from a power attack...but the question remains, why doesn't he get 1-1/2x strength when using one end of a quarterstaff two-handed in a flurry of blows WITHOUT power attack?
Saytr 04-17-07, 10:19 PM	I always thought it was pretty clear. A quarterstaff can be two-handed if you wish to use only one end. Two-handed is 1 1/2 Str and x2 Power attack. It's just like any other double weapon. If you wish to use it in a flurry of blows the weapon will use the rules listed under the flurry of blows ability. Flurry attacks are 1 x Str and x1 Power attack. They are not concidered two-handed weapons. This is further clarified in the SRD under the decription in 'Flurry of blows' "In the case of the quarterstaff, each end counts as a separate weapon for the purpose of using the flurry of blows ability." Even a quarterstaff, which can normally be used as a single two-handed weapon if you wish to use it that way, cannot be used as a two-handed weapon during a flurry. Each end counts as a separate weapon so you can't use them two-handed. Seems fair. Use it two-handed or get the extra attack and get x1 Str and PAttack. Your choice. ~
jaelis 04-18-07, 07:45 AM	I If you wish to use it in a flurry of blows the weapon will use the rules listed under the flurry of blows ability. Flurry attacks are 1 x Str and x1 Power attack. That's not such a useful statement, since the power attack specification is in fact not "listed under the flurry of blows ability." They are not concidered two-handed weapons. This is further clarified in the SRD under the decription in 'Flurry of blows' "In the case of the quarterstaff, each end counts as a separate weapon for the purpose of using the flurry of blows ability." This is at least a reasonable argument though. I don't think it is decisive, because each end of a quarterstaff also counts as a separate (2H) weapon when you are 2Hing it normally. For instance, a +1 flaming/+1 shocking staff could be treated as a 2H flaming weapon or a 2H shocking weapon. But I agree that yours is a plausible interpretation of the actual rules, which is better than the other arguments that have been presented.
Tectorman 04-20-07, 11:53 AM	Yeah, but then what do the two separate weapons count as? I've seen a couple of threads and comments to the effect of "a double weapon used as two weapons can let its wielder use the offhand light portion with Weapon Finesse". I do not agree with that view; it says "for the purposes of two-weapon fighting" in the descriptions for those double weapons, which would not include a stipulation about Weapon Finesse. If you agree with that view, you may disregard the following. If you don't, then check this out. If I choose to flurry with a quarterstaff, can get five attacks out of my flurry, and have Weapon Finesse, then since I'm not compelled to switch regularly between each end, why wouldn't I be able to say my first four attacks are with my offhand light weapon end and that my fifth attack uses the primary one-handed end? In that way, my first four attacks get the most benefit, and my fifth uses the lowest BAB iterative number. I guess the real question is, what does a flurrying double weapon count as, period? For Power Attack or Weapon Finesse. A light weapon is a light weapon is a light weapon, but a T-H double flurry weapon? It can be used doubly or singly, but what would it count as? The above is something that Wizards needs to address.