Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Mfables 03-18-08, 10:19 PM	Proffesion is one of the many skills people dont use often, people have different insight on it. I desire feedback on the proffesion subject. As a DM how would you use it? What do you think it would apply to? How would you use it in a traveling party? What do you think of it? In your oppinion could you use proffesion ase a craft skill? As a player how do you expect it to be used? What proffesion is the most useful? What could the proffesion skill be used for? How would you use it? What is the best proffesion skill? So yes...I desire feedback.
Radijs 03-18-08, 10:47 PM	Its really just fluff in my book. Though if you have a creative DM you might be able to get some useful things out of astrologer by seeing omens in the movement of the planets and the stars.
zeratulcraft 03-18-08, 10:50 PM	I never understood Profession being a class skill for everyone, they're adventurers, that's their profession. If you want it for back story, take the appropriate crafts of knowledges instead. If I were a blacksmith before adventuring, I'd have Craft(Weaponsmithing) and the like.
Mfables 03-18-08, 11:05 PM	umThe thing about craft skills is that they are rarely used, it is hard for most to use, because how are you going to make a weapon without a forge or the proper tools, sure you could ask the DM if you could turn a carriage into a forge, but how the hell are you going to take that over water or through a forest, the most useful craft skill I have thought about useing would be the woodworking craft or the bowmaking craft, those are some of the only useful craft skills that can be applied while on an adventure, well in a forested terrain anyways, and if you think about it mapmaking can be useful, for instance, say the sorcerer saw the map and memorized it, and then the sorcerer died, what do you do know? Well the mapmaking skill would be useful for the party, the sorcerer could make as many maps as possible just incase he died. The other craft skill are kinda useless too. But proffesion skills are useless too, except for a few things, if you have a mapmaking proffesion you already know how to make maps and at the DMs permission you wont fail your mapmaking craft because of your proffesion in mapmaking, proffesion can help in many ways, depending on the DM. So in many was proffesion is a more useful skill than craft. In ways they both suck but in ways they have a much wider meaning than other skills. And if I shoot you down im sorry, I just enjoy debates, and I enjoy knowing whet others think about things, and I just throw my opinions in too.
Kouk 03-19-08, 12:27 AM	Profession is pretty heavily useless for PCs. The only times it is necessary is when it is a requirement for a prestige class. Craft and Profession skills are possible tools for roleplaying, like the blacksmith's apprentice who takes up one of his swords in defense of the village etc. -- but mechanically they are inferior choices. Only a few Professions might really be considered useful for an adventurer to have in my opinion: Profession (Sailor) if you are in a campaign with a lot of boats, and you own or you or your party will own a ship some day. Depending on the system of naval combat you use I suppose. Profession (Gambler) Can help in a rare few situations, or just to make some scratch. It isn't well defined though. Profession (Soldier) or (Commander) or something like that in a heavily military-based campaign could be useful for commanding troops and such. These are all fringe uses really though.
JulesCARV 03-19-08, 12:50 AM	I also wonder about the profession (astrologer) ranks sublime chords end up with. What can they do with those? Predict eclipses? Write vague horoscopes like "Now is the time to rekindle old friendships and restart old, abandoned projects. You will have difficulties in your professional life, but so long as you remain steadfast and determined, you will overcome them and emerge stronger. Something new and exciting is just about to happen in your romantic life -- don't let the opportunity pass you by!"
Mfables 03-19-08, 01:41 AM	Well the astrologer proffesion skill can be used for a lot of things, if your an astrologer you can use the stars to determine direction and can map out all sorts of things. In reality it is a mini skill for your character that helps with maping and direction.
mplindustries 03-19-08, 04:45 AM	I also wonder about the profession (astrologer) ranks sublime chords end up with. What can they do with those? Predict eclipses? Write vague horoscopes like "Now is the time to rekindle old friendships and restart old, abandoned projects. You will have difficulties in your professional life, but so long as you remain steadfast and determined, you will overcome them and emerge stronger. Something new and exciting is just about to happen in your romantic life -- don't let the opportunity pass you by!" What can you actually do with Profession (Astologer)? The same exact thing you can do with Profession (Dog Breeder), Profession (Fluffer), or Profession (ASJKLehakj): "You can practice your trade and make a decent living, earning about half your Profession check result in gold pieces per week of dedicated work. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/profession.htm)" By RAW, you can take Profession in basically anything, and the rules don't care one bit. All it does is let you make money based on the skill check each week. Now, common-sensewise, what can Profession (Astrologer) do? Same thing as in real life: you can say things that are vague enough to apply to just about anyone who wants to believe in it.
Jvance420 03-19-08, 04:58 AM	Erm....what is the check exactly? Just a simple roll + modifier, and half of that is your gold intake? I often like to give a craft or profession for flavor, but of course I don't put many ranks in it. But, if I can squeeze some gold out of it, I'd be tempted to drop a couple extra ranks in it :p
Mfables 03-19-08, 10:16 AM	Some DMs will grant bonusus on many skills because a player has a proffesion, say for instance a player has proffesion (blacksmith) then he is good at crafting and forging metalic weapons already, so the player might get a bonus on such craft skills as craft (metalworking), craft (weaponsmith), etc. In any case the usefulness of the proffesion skill depends on the player, DM, and campaign setting. These bonusus are just like skill synergy (PH pg66). It means you were trained in a certain proffesion that covers more than one craft.
Vharuck 03-19-08, 02:02 PM	I would say blacksmithing is a Craft, not a Profession, since it deals entirely in creating and repairing goods. Crafts are used to make goods. Professions are used to provide services.
Mfables 03-19-08, 04:47 PM	Well like I said it all depends on the player and the DM.
Howland Reed 03-19-08, 05:50 PM	I allow (custom made) professions to give and get synergy bonuses. For example, Prof (sailor) might get synergy from Use Rope, or Prof (barrister) get synergy from Diplomacy. Similarly, Prof (merchant) might give synergy to Appraise, or Prof (Herbalist) might give synergy to Heal. All house ruled, but I find it adds flavor and versatility. When you get down to it, almost all professions are exactly as useful (in an adventure) as the DM lets them be. But who knows? If you take ranks in Prof (barrister), the DM may include a scene where you need to argue the law. If you take ranks in Prof (farmer), maybe you'll have an edge when it comes to getting information out of those surly peasants, since you're a fellow hayseed.
Mfables 03-19-08, 10:24 PM	I allow (custom made) professions to give and get synergy bonuses. For example, Prof (sailor) might get synergy from Use Rope, or Prof (barrister) get synergy from Diplomacy. Similarly, Prof (merchant) might give synergy to Appraise, or Prof (Herbalist) might give synergy to Heal. All house ruled, but I find it adds flavor and versatility. When you get down to it, almost all professions are exactly as useful (in an adventure) as the DM lets them be. But who knows? If you take ranks in Prof (barrister), the DM may include a scene where you need to argue the law. If you take ranks in Prof (farmer), maybe you'll have an edge when it comes to getting information out of those surly peasants, since you're a fellow hayseed. I completely agree with you.:P
Baninor 03-20-08, 10:29 AM	I've had a character wit Profession (Cook) with 16 ranks and 3 wisdom (Plus Mastercraft Spice Rack, stocked with spices)), for a total of +21 to it. The DM and I worked out a cooking list. Apparently my cooking was so amazing it was bordering on magical. If I spent an hour that morning cooking I could make various meals which gave various bonuses. Only 1 effect at a time. Chicken Noodle Soup (+4 saves against cold temperatures) Dazeran's Chilli Bowl (+1 attack) Hearty Rye Bread (some bonus against forced marched) I can't really remember them all.. It been a couple years. Really just talk to your DM about anything you can do with your profession. Sometimes they reward you for taking useless skills for RP purposes.
Dog_O_War 03-20-08, 01:21 PM	Wow, until you Baninor, I didn't think there was a single other person than myself that used cooking. Halfling cooks (bards too usually) were a kick I was on a few years ago. Would weave potion effects into the food (used the brew potion feat with an alternate consumption method). I did the same with more than a few dwarven bard/fighters - just I'd use Profession(brewing) - did potions, alchemical items -"special" kegs of ale(alchemist's fire)- , and good ol' wobbly pop. I've done profession(writer) as well; wrote a novel and kept some spells hidden in the seemingly innocuous book - had a few copies floating around the campaign world, titled "From the Shadows" (the book also contained hidden instructions for a prestige class I was developing - where you perfected the art of the Shadow illusion spells). This was my favorite. When Three Dragon Ante came out, so did the profession(gambler) skill. Worked well with that web adventure "a quiet night of cards", specifically with the feats, like Cards over Swords. I've done sailor before, but that was more a utility requirement for the campaign (sea game). I've done profession(mining) as well, to represent a trio of Gnomish miners (was playing multiple characters). Profession can be as fun a skill as you let it be.
mplindustries 03-20-08, 03:37 PM	I don't know, I still think all those things you describe can and should be allowed to be done without any skill investment. Profession is mechanically just a waste, and nothing you described was really mechanical or required the profession skill to get done.
MrWildman 03-20-08, 04:53 PM	My group introduced a standing house rule that gives everyone (including NPCs) 2 extra skill points/level. We did this to encourage putting ranks into craft (stuff) and Profession (job). Professions like gambler or merchant may grant synergy bonuses to Gather Information checks, or Appraise. One character has ranks in Profession (farmer) that we decided help Handle Animal and the foraging aspect of Survival, for instance. With the rather limited skill points of RAW this is less attractive, though. Peace.
Jvance420 03-21-08, 06:08 AM	I don't know, I still think all those things you describe can and should be allowed to be done without any skill investment. Profession is mechanically just a waste, and nothing you described was really mechanical or required the profession skill to get done. Ah true, but being "capable" to make veal doesn't mean that you are "able". At least thats how I see it. To use the cook as an example. This sounded more like a chef than a basic cook, hence all the ranks. Of course I live in my own world, so who knows what I am taking about.
Baninor 03-21-08, 08:43 AM	Other than Gamble and Sailor all profession skills are useless outside gaining some $. Basically its completely up to the DM to make it useful. I've had a gnome in our group with Craft Bowyer and Knowledge Engineering, and pimped out his crossbow. Had a scope (Increases range on sneak attack and point blank to 45 ft) could fire oil dipped bolts which ignited (1d2 fire damage). So you can make stuff up give incentives to your players or vise versa the players could ask the DM.
Dog_O_War 03-21-08, 11:22 AM	I don't know, I still think all those things you describe can and should be allowed to be done without any skill investment. Profession is mechanically just a waste, and nothing you described was really mechanical or required the profession skill to get done. Oh, you can do these things without skill investment - but you will make no money at it. It's called "unskilled labour". Also, you need to step away from the mechanics of the game for a bit - this "mechanical waste" in game is one of the reasons people enjoy RPG's in the first place. While we haven't stepped into the realm of KoDT and started up games of FarmMaster, to pull away from rules is a great interlude that can make the game far greater than the sum of its mechanical parts.
mplindustries 03-21-08, 01:50 PM	Oh, you can do these things without skill investment - but you will make no money at it. It's called "unskilled labour". Also, you need to step away from the mechanics of the game for a bit - this "mechanical waste" in game is one of the reasons people enjoy RPG's in the first place. While we haven't stepped into the realm of KoDT and started up games of FarmMaster, to pull away from rules is a great interlude that can make the game far greater than the sum of its mechanical parts. I actually was suggesting pulling away from the rules. By leaving the profession skill as a money maker, it allows people to be good chefs without wasting mechanical advantages (i.e. skill points). Thus, you can still roleplaying being a good chef, but if it has no mechanical advantage (as in the semi-magical buffs people were talking about or "pimping out your crossbow" or something else the GM houserules up to make it useful), then it should have no mechanical cost either. You shouldn't have to give your Sorcerer a low Charisma if you roleplay him as an unlikable jerk, and you shouldn't have to spend skill points on profession if you want to be a good chef unless you intend to make money with it.
1 ton ghost 03-21-08, 03:04 PM	you guys have heard of the circumstance bonus yes? perhaps, DM's discretion? not just mix/max hack n' slash play... Professions arne't largely useless or wasted ranks. That speaks more for the shortsightedness of the player and lack of creativity and increasing stagnation than any mechanical perceived advantage. Besides, even mechanically, if you consider enough of the rules alone, not even some creative intitiave, you can find aid, synergies, means to add circumstance bonuses to other skills, etc. Profession Scribe; this has worked largely well for my g/f's cleric of Jergal. this god in question has a very keen scholastic aspect. this works well too in terms of meshing w/ Decypher Script, documenting anything (gives credibility and supporting evidence, ala Diplomacy/Forgery), aids in Cartography and Overland Travel, etc. more than once this gave an overall bonus to Search when plundering libraries and labs for intel. Intel is often way more useful than just more gp and magic treasure. It keeps you alive. Profession Sailor; so you have a war galley...but can you pilot it? this one is largely self-explanatory. Affords you alot of clout nautically. Professional Herbalist; this kinda' flirts w/ Knowledge Nature and Survival alot. very often they will compliment each other w/ like bonuses. often useful for plant poisons, drug acquisition, etc. Profession Courtesan; this one has alot of endless possibilities. Technically, Seduction is under Bluff's aegis, but it's (courtesan) alot more than that. this could easilly augment a Disguise roll into a harem, help pry out secret intel, etc.
mplindustries 03-21-08, 03:24 PM	you guys have heard of the circumstance bonus yes? perhaps, DM's discretion? not just mix/max hack n' slash play... Professions arne't largely useless or wasted ranks. That speaks more for the shortsightedness of the player and lack of creativity and increasing stagnation than any mechanical perceived advantage. Besides, even mechanically, if you consider enough of the rules alone, not even some creative intitiave, you can find aid, synergies, means to add circumstance bonuses to other skills, etc. Profession Scribe; this has worked largely well for my g/f's cleric of Jergal. this god in question has a very keen scholastic aspect. this works well too in terms of meshing w/ Decypher Script, documenting anything (gives credibility and supporting evidence, ala Diplomacy/Forgery), aids in Cartography and Overland Travel, etc. more than once this gave an overall bonus to Search when plundering libraries and labs for intel. Intel is often way more useful than just more gp and magic treasure. It keeps you alive. Profession Sailor; so you have a war galley...but can you pilot it? this one is largely self-explanatory. Affords you alot of clout nautically. Professional Herbalist; this kinda' flirts w/ Knowledge Nature and Survival alot. very often they will compliment each other w/ like bonuses. often useful for plant poisons, drug acquisition, etc. Profession Courtesan; this one has alot of endless possibilities. Technically, Seduction is under Bluff's aegis, but it's (courtesan) alot more than that. this could easilly augment a Disguise roll into a harem, help pry out secret intel, etc. Those are all houserules. Of course you can do anything. Your GM can allow you to perform with tumble if he wants to and vice versa. All of that, however, is at the mercy of your GM.
1 ton ghost 03-21-08, 04:09 PM	Those are all houserules. Of course you can do anything. Your GM can allow you to perform with tumble if he wants to and vice versa. All of that, however, is at the mercy of your GM. they are not all houserules. consider more carefully. poke through your PHB if you must, but do not discount it so quickly. PHB and DMG stipulate that the DM is free to assign circumstance bonus if he feels the venture in question is tethered to a related skill, feat, endeavor. for example in a non-professional moment, if they just say, "i Search the room.", then Search alone, Take 10, Take 20...if they say w/ more vision, Int, and creativity, "i Search the room; cut open the matress, look in the chimney, check under the bed, etc." they are thinking more progressively and should be entitled a reward or outright success if the object in question they are Searching for is in one of those areas mentioned prior. professional sailor is pretty b/w, no house rule there. professional herbalist has been referenced many times. i just saw a notation for one in FRCS in items under Cassil and Narraroot (think, birthcontrol). you're arguing for your position which is fine, but you've precluded all others in favor of your own which is dangerous. there is often more than 1 correct solution to the problem, it's just i'm of the opinion that there isn't a problem per se that a degree of intelligence and inititiative can't solve.
Master_Vega 03-22-08, 06:09 PM	My group's main GM uses Profession as something to give characters bonus income. For instance: in a campaign where we were drafted from the gladiatorial arena into the army, my character got higher wages than the others because of his ranks in Profession: Mercenary (if it had been Soldier, I'd have gotten an even larger pay boost). Granted that was a very low-fund campaign, the extra gold did pay off a bit since it allowed me to purchase more potions and the like... which I ended up using on the other players. >_> :P Here's an interesting houserule for Profession: Income: Standard Income: If an adventurer has ranks in profession, and a job that suits them (adventuring does not count as a profession), he gains an additional percentage of pay equal to his total modifier for the profession in question. (This is a nice one if the PCs are part of a mercenary/bounty-hunting guild that sends them on missions.) Bonuses and one-time payoffs: If an adventurer has ranks in profession, and receives a bonus or payoff for performing a job/achieving a goal closely-related to his profession, he gains an additional percentage of pay equal to 1/2 (1/4 if you like giving big payoffs) his total modifier for the profession in question. Thoughts? Note: In D20Modern, Profession is a must-have skill. Aside from the rare treasure reward (selling small stuff really isn't that beneficial with Modern's Wealth System), your wealth bonus, which you use to buy things, only goes up when you level up. After distributing your skillpoints, you make a profession check; if you beat your total wealth bonus (something very difficult at high levels), gain one extra point of wealth bonus. For every five you beat your total wealth bonus by, you gain another +1. You also gain a number of wealth bonus simply for having ranks in Profession... which is what high-leveled characters usually get by on.
1 ton ghost 03-22-08, 10:47 PM	i kinda' thought weapon/armor proficiencies, feats, HD, skills, and the like engendered someone to the theoretical Profession Merc. i mean, it's cool, i see where you're going in the formal sense, even approve really, i'm just curious if it's redundant is all. i guess beyond the normative skill range of most soldiers and mercs, certain Knowledges and a degree of Diplomacy help flesh out that professional "solider of fortune" motif you're gunning for. Some Knowledge History to academically employ past war campaigns and sound tactical thinking, stuff like that. this is theory though. opinion btw...
no-sides-sameeth 03-22-08, 11:54 PM	Does anyone else find it kind of weird that the Fighter is the only class in the PHB without Profession as a class skill? Monks can have a profession, Druids can have a profession, everyone but the Fighter.
1 ton ghost 03-23-08, 09:42 PM	Does anyone else find it kind of weird that the Fighter is the only class in the PHB without Profession as a class skill? Monks can have a profession, Druids can have a profession, everyone but the Fighter. damn, really? i actually never noticed that before. nice find btw. surely there are plenty of Ftrs that would make good marines...that is, if they had Profession Sailor (USMC-> dept. of Navy for what it's worth). or just consider pirate types that don't wanna be pigeonholed as rogues or swashbucklers. odysseus, sinbad, etc. Profession Merchant...nice way to finance/fence all the loot you risked your life for. why do you think that is anyway (Profession being x-class)?
Mfables 03-24-08, 12:29 AM	Its really just up to the DM and his/her imagination. Someone could use a proffesion skill for one thing and someone could use it for something else. For instance, someone could use proffesion (herbalist) for alchemy or cooking. And I think that the reason they didn't give fighters or barbarians the proffesion skill is because fighters are usually trained from an age before they have had time to be in a proffesion, their job is their proffesion, and barbarians don't have the intellect to do something like that, they won't learn well enough. But that is their oppinion.
no-sides-sameeth 03-24-08, 09:23 AM	Daxos: We expected Sparta's contribution to at least match our own. King Leonidas: Doesn't it? [points to Arcadian soldier behind Daxos] King Leonidas: You there, Arcadian! What is your profession? Free Greek-Potter: I am a potter, sir. King Leonidas: [points to another soldier] And you, what is your profession? Free Greek-Sculptor: Sculptor, sir. King Leonidas: Sculptor. [turns to a third soldier] King Leonidas: And you? Free Greek-Blacksmith: Blacksmith. King Leonidas: [behind him] SPARTANS! WHAT IS YOUR PROFESSION? Spartans: HA-OOH! HA-OOH! HA-OOH! King Leonidas: [turning to Daxos] You see, old friend? I brought more soldiers than you did. Although I think that the 300 Spartans are Warblades. In my campaign they are multiclass Warblade/Monks with a prestige class that allows flurry with shield bash, spear and short sword.
Master_Vega 03-24-08, 12:21 PM	i kinda' thought weapon/armor proficiencies, feats, HD, skills, and the like engendered someone to the theoretical Profession Merc. i mean, it's cool, i see where you're going in the formal sense, even approve really, i'm just curious if it's redundant is all. i guess beyond the normative skill range of most soldiers and mercs, certain Knowledges and a degree of Diplomacy help flesh out that professional "solider of fortune" motif you're gunning for. Some Knowledge History to academically employ past war campaigns and sound tactical thinking, stuff like that. this is theory though. opinion btw... I agree, but sometimes you don't want to do every last thing in-character (like haggle for prices/rewards.) The Profession skill is a good way to get around that. If you do play it out, then profession could replace the normal roll if it's accurate enough. This would be useful for low-charisma types who at least have a decent wisdom. Flavor: As an artist, you know from experience what collectors in general look for in a painting, and so you make sure those factors are obvious when you present the art to a potential buyer. As a long-time mercenary, you've found out what employers like to hear about their hired-soldiers. You are sure to list your exploits strongly, and skip over all but a few of your shortcomings. You might not be able to bluff your way out of a paper bag, but you can certainly talk your way into a higher salary. Having been a bounty hunter for three years now, you know what facts the wardens want to know about you and your exploits, and what darker facts they don't. When reporting to them about a completed mission, your report is accurate and to a point, but emphasizes things like civilian safety or obliviousness (meaning they were never alerted to the situation), and quick and clean detaining methods. And so on...
angryscrub 03-24-08, 02:29 PM	to expand a bit on what Master_Vega said: profession mercenary - you have at least a basic understanding of the law and contracts as it relates to mercenary hiring. squad level tactics at the least, camp discipline, watch orders, the concept of high signs, payroll, etc. profession teamster - you know how to drive a team, hitch a wagon, deal with shipping manifests, track inventory, etc. profession lawyer - you understand the law and its related machinery. you know how to get permits, check deeds, review letters of marque, and whatever else that the law impacts. these are just a few examples of what profession really means. if you think about what the skill actually does, it grants more benefits than are numerically described. ...You can practice your trade and make a decent living, earning about half your Profession check result in gold pieces per week of dedicated work. You know how to use the tools of your trade, how to perform the profession’s daily tasks, how to supervise helpers, and how to handle common problems.... what are the daily tasks of a teamster? and his tools? team and wagon. a teamster, with ranks in no other skills, knows how to handle a team of horses (or possibly oxen, depending on where the character is from) that are hitched to a wagon. anyone can drive a wagon, but a teamster knows how to avoid road hazards, how to pace his team, etc. a character with 20 ranks in teamster, and no ranks in handle animal is driving a wagon and needs to do a forced march. yes, it falls under handle animal, but it also falls under profession teamster in this limited circumstance. profession mercenary you have the knowledge to set up a camp in the most defensible way possible. the optimal place to put sentries. this is a part of your daily tasks, and if you have a high number of ranks especially, you should be able to find the higher ground or other defensible areas when setting up camp. as a lawyer, you know what government departments handle what areas of law, who to talk to about various public records, and who is allowed to see them. who actually owns a mansion in the middle of the city? if you're a lawyer, you know exactly who to go see to find out. if it falls within the scope of your profession, you know how to do it or what it is, even if you don't have the relevant knowledge skill, or it might fall under another skill. it's right there RAW. "...you know how to perform the daily tasks..." profession can be very useful, indeed. the mechanism is built right in to substitute it for knowledge skills, etc. ...Try Again Varies. An attempt to use a Profession skill to earn an income cannot be retried. You are stuck with whatever weekly wage your check result brought you. Another check may be made after a week to determine a new income for the next period of time. An attempt to accomplish some specific task can usually be retried. ... emphasis mine, there. profession lawyer check instead of knowledge local check to find out who really owns that house. profession teamster check to push that team a little harder instead of handle animal. profession mercenary check to find a campsite that's not visible from the road, but that you can see the road from. etc, and on and on. trained only. there's a reason for this. people who scoff at profession obviously haven't really read it and understood it.
Operation_Shoestring 03-24-08, 04:45 PM	Profession: Sailor and Profession: Gambler are great to have. Profession: Geisha is also fun just for kicks.
mplindustries 03-24-08, 08:14 PM	I agree, but sometimes you don't want to do every last thing in-character (like haggle for prices/rewards.) The Profession skill is a good way to get around that. If you do play it out, then profession could replace the normal roll if it's accurate enough. This would be useful for low-charisma types who at least have a decent wisdom. Flavor: As an artist, you know from experience what collectors in general look for in a painting, and so you make sure those factors are obvious when you present the art to a potential buyer. As a long-time mercenary, you've found out what employers like to hear about their hired-soldiers. You are sure to list your exploits strongly, and skip over all but a few of your shortcomings. You might not be able to bluff your way out of a paper bag, but you can certainly talk your way into a higher salary. Having been a bounty hunter for three years now, you know what facts the wardens want to know about you and your exploits, and what darker facts they don't. When reporting to them about a completed mission, your report is accurate and to a point, but emphasizes things like civilian safety or obliviousness (meaning they were never alerted to the situation), and quick and clean detaining methods. And so on... OR, you could say, "My character has been a bounty hunter for three years now." Then your DM says, "Ok, I am not a jerk, so as long as you don't try and make downtime money with it, you don't have to gimp yourself and take Profession: Bounty Hunter. You can know how to report a completed mission accurately and to the point with correct emphasis on things like civilian safety. That way, you can spend your precious skills, a game resource, on stuff that is actually important to the game side of things, like survival and gather info so you can actually track people, or spot/listen/search/disguise/hide/move silently/open locks/forgery so you can notice when things are "going weird," get close to them without them knowing, and actually get access to the places they'd be." No DM ever would propose folding any of those things into Profession: Bounty Hunter, and I really don't think you should have to feel pressure to trade important skills for fluffy junk ones that only have use if your GM allows them to, just to accurately represent your vision. Now, as a compromise, I tend to give people free skill points to put into Profession, Craft, or Perform, because a lot of long time D&D players seem to have a hard time separating fluff from crunch...
angryscrub 03-24-08, 08:59 PM	OR, you could say, "My character has been a bounty hunter for three years now." Then your DM says, "Ok, I am not a jerk, so as long as you don't try and make downtime money with it, you don't have to gimp yourself and take Profession: Bounty Hunter. You can know how to report a completed mission accurately and to the point with correct emphasis on things like civilian safety. That way, you can spend your precious skills, a game resource, on stuff that is actually important to the game side of things, like survival and gather info so you can actually track people, or spot/listen/search/disguise/hide/move silently/open locks/forgery so you can notice when things are "going weird," get close to them without them knowing, and actually get access to the places they'd be." as long as you had all those skills, and used them to be a bounty hunter, that's very reasonable. however, this: No DM ever would propose folding any of those things into Profession: Bounty Hunter, and I really don't think you should have to feel pressure to trade important skills for fluffy junk ones that only have use if your GM allows them to, just to accurately represent your vision. is what's known as a house rule. you, as DM, don't have to propose anything. it's right there in the profession skill description. you might be able to argue for every other thing on the list, but at the very least, as part of his day to day activities, a bounty has to be able to gather info on his quarry. i'll post it again. ...You know how to use the tools of your trade, how to perform the profession’s daily tasks, how to supervise helpers, and how to handle common problems... are you honestly claiming that in your games, it's not part of a bounty hunters job to gather info about his quarry? seriously? or that it's not a common problem that your quarry is going to be hiding from you and everyone else, and you have to ask people if they've seen this guy around? Now, as a compromise, I tend to give people free skill points to put into Profession, Craft, or Perform, because a lot of long time D&D players seem to have a hard time separating fluff from crunch... an interesting idea, that prolly only works given your house ruled nerfed version of profession.
mplindustries 03-24-08, 11:19 PM	is what's known as a house rule. you, as DM, don't have to propose anything. it's right there in the profession skill description. you might be able to argue for every other thing on the list, but at the very least, as part of his day to day activities, a bounty has to be able to gather info on his quarry. i'll post it again. are you honestly claiming that in your games, it's not part of a bounty hunters job to gather info about his quarry? seriously? or that it's not a common problem that your quarry is going to be hiding from you and everyone else, and you have to ask people if they've seen this guy around? an interesting idea, that prolly only works given your house ruled nerfed version of profession. Its not a house ruled nerf. Its acknowledgement of the fact that the skill relies entirely on what the GM deems "daily tasks." For example, one GM may decide knot tying is obviously a day-to-day task for a sailor. However, another, may decide that knot tying, while day-to-day, is already covered by Use Rope. Both would be correct. Under your system, if I wanted to be sneaky, why wouldn't I just take "Profession: Assasin?" Does that mean I get Disguise, Move Silently, and Hide all in one skill? Do I also know Craft: Poisonmaking because I took a profession? Why ever take Diplomacy when I could take "Profession: Diplomat" and get the benefits of Diplomacy, Bluff, Knowledge: Nobility, and Sense Motive? Why take Gather Information when I could just use Profession: Bounty Hunter to do all that and more? Profession: Merchant gets me at least Appraise and Diplomacy. What about Profession: Magic Shopkeeper? Does that let me add Use Magic Device? What about Profession: Charlatan, in which my job involves UMDing wands and scrolls to do miraculous healings and stuff and play it off as natural or divine power? With Profession: Prophet or Profession: Fortune Teller, can I make a skill check to see the future? What do you think the Profession: Farmer DC is for milking a cow? Is it actually important if he fails or not? What drama would it add? If you're using Profession: Teamster to push your animals, is it the same difficulty as Handle Animal? Is it easier because its a "daily task?" Is it even a daily task? Do you need to push every day, and if not, does that count? Profession does not need to be nerfed by house-rules. If you allow profession skills to step on the toes of other, already existant skills, you are using a house rule to buff it. If you don't allow players who are roleplaying someone in a certain field as already knowing how to do daily tasks and things of that nature without taking ranks in profession, then you're just being difficult. What purpose does it serve to prevent players from doing the kind of mundane stuff you're talking about without a roll? Why punish them mechanically for roleplaying strange professions? Player: "I want to be the party's cook." GM: "Well, then take Profession: Chef." Player: "Well, I'd have to give up Spot then..." GM: "Hey, do you want to give your fellow dungeon delvers delicious, homecooked meals, or do you want to have 0 ranks in the most common roll in any and all roleplaying games and get ambushed and pick pocketed and stuff all the time?" Player: "Er, well will it give them extra benefit if they eat nice meals as opposed to just rations?" GM: "No, of course not. You're not brewing potions here, just cooking." Player: "Uh, ok...no cook it is." Nobody should be mechanically penalized for making a roleplaying choice unless they want to be penalized.
JulesCARV 03-25-08, 12:57 AM	Hmm... I'd say that being an decent cook -- not Mario Batali, but able to cook a tasty meal -- can be in the purview of roleplaying with zero ranks in profession. Being a truly excellent cook and/or being able to direct a whole kitchen requires profession ranks. After all, even with a -1 wisdom modifier and 1 rank in profession, with a trained modifier +0 (just about as bad as possible while still being trained at all), a character with profession (chef) can make 5 gp/week, or 7 sp/day. A hireling cook, on the other hand, costs just 1 sp/day according to DMG 105. As such, I suppose it makes sense to say that a typical cook -- someone who can make a good meal, and isn't limited to just opening rations, but who isn't a master of the culinary arts either -- is someone with no mechanical ranks, who just has a non-mechanical knack for cooking, which is his form of untrained labor (as per the untrained profession rules which give 1 sp/day, the same wage as a cook hireling). Conclusion: you can be the party's chef and not have profession ranks. Just on the basis of roleplaying flavor, without any skill point investment, you can be a decent cook, but you won't be a great cook.
Salla 03-25-08, 01:08 AM	Other than PrC entry, the only other time I use profession is when I have a character who has a reason to try to appear to be something other than whatever his adventuring class indicates. For example, I have a Ninja (well, Swordsage) with Profession: Beggar. So, he acts like a vagrant and scrapes up a few coins between doing more interesting things. So far, everybody just thinks he's 'that scrawny beggar kid'.
Master_Vega 03-25-08, 01:42 AM	mplindustries -- I never proposed that my list of advantages wasn't a house rule. In fact, my first post mentioning new rules said: "How's this house rule?" (or something to that effect. I'm feeling a bit lazy to go back and read the exact words.) I put more emphasis on profession because I'm one of the weird people who played D20Modern before trying D&D. Because I like D20Modern's use of profession, I tend to use it as a money-making tool in my games. If you don't like letting your players spending skill points so they can gain some extra cash, and don't like the ideas I throw out for discussion, then you don't have to use my house rules. ;) It's your game after all. And when I said you could roll profession (X) instead of diplomacy, it was only in situations that A: involve salary discussion; and B: are closely related to your profession.
Jvance420 03-25-08, 02:37 AM	So the anti profession people think that all members of a party should all be equally as good at doing profession related stuff? I don't like the idea of clones. I didn't think all adventurers were born and bred from the womb to be so. Anyone else picturing a barbarian with a chef apron on? I think that ranks, even a low amount, helps to seperate the characters and what they specialize in. I think it adds depth when you have a sailor or a gambler or a whatever, instead of everyone just naturally being good at it. You customize your character in so many other ways, it only makes sense to do it in this way as well. All that being said, most of the time, I don't drop more than 5-8 ranks in a profession being as they are used so rarely lol.
1 ton ghost 03-25-08, 12:02 PM	CROSS SKILL REDUNCANCY -not all characters are clones in this respect. Ability Modifier is expressed as natural talent while actual Ranks in skill 'x' represent formal training to be blunt. plus, their application might be different. 2 NPCs of equal footing w/ same skills and end games: 1 Barbarian Intimidates w/ a series of snarls, nasty epithets, and so on. 1 Samurai Intimidates likewise, same mechanical effect by just staring you down coldly both achieve the same end w/ exact ranks/ability mods, it's just expressed differently in terms of class, character concept, culture, etc. in other words, we are more enamored of artistic license than we give credit for. more differences exist in game than we notice. it's just the numeric and text based similarities seem more obvious so we take that bait foolishly instead of actually engaging the "RP" in "RPG" and doing what was intended, not what instinct dictates. SKILL SPECIFICITY -some Professions allow for specific skill worthy attempts/rolls that other skills might cover in the broader sense. the rope analogy was particularly apt for the Sail/Use Rope discrepancy, so nj whoever pitched that. this is not a blanket policy though as it is more refined to SPECIFIC endeavors related to the Profession and ONLY the Profession. Profession Sailor can do the ship's moorings, adjusting rigging, the jibe boom, etc. w/ rope like no one's business. asking him to secure a prisoner, make a noose, or adjust ropes on siege weaponry would not be his forte as it's broader and expressed in Use Rope. he'd need Assists, Take 20, etc. Profession Lawyer/Barrister: would be very good at Diplomacy...in court (that's all he does, his sphere of influence is in court). do not ask him to negotiate a deal w/ Diplomacy between rival thieves guilds, broker a deal w/ the party's fence, etc. that's beyond his Skill, not necessarilly his Cha though... he would have a bit of Know Local/History/Nobility and so forth, but only as it pertained to legal issues, land grants, historic precidents, power bases, etc. he would be ignorant of KnowLocal, "who's got the best magic smithy in town?" he wouldn't know. conversely, "what was the smithy that was found guilty of employing Vile weapony for evil patrons in court?" he might know that. having ranks independent of said Profession(s) opens the door though to those skills in a wider scope and gives more liberty in their application. Profession (anything) is simply far more refined and specific in its application and likely covers aspects touched on in other stand-alone skills. Teamsters, mentioned, can Push Pack Animals (as per Handle Animal), but not train them in any Tricks and the like. some leeway must be expressed via DM's discretion, common sense, and speed of play though for some examples.
Master_Vega 03-25-08, 12:51 PM	Anyone else picturing a barbarian with a chef apron on? That could get entertaining... Rage-cook-off. "Krog make good suffle, you see. RAAAAAHHHH! SUFFLE! ... Okay, Krog make good chili instead. *Krog proceeds to make chili from a freshly slaughtered cow -which he killed in front of the audience- and serve a wonderful dish to the judges*" 1 ton ghost -- :clap: Well put. I agree.
SolEiji 03-25-08, 05:45 PM	Wow.... I had no idea people did the same houserules as me, I'm overjoyed! :D I like using Profession and houserule it for benefits. Well, others have effectively said what I want, I give Synergy bonuses that make sense per your profession when you hit 5 ranks, and I allow the (clever) use of the skill to work for goals. I actually manage to play one of these myself, an aged philosopher kobold who had already written a half dozen books, and so had his ranks in Profession Writer. I managed to use my Profession skill to write several letters to enemies and allies alike and effectively used it to intimidate, bluff, and diplomacize at a distance. By the time I would reach where I have been sending letters I had already made an impression, allowing my kobold to work his actual social skill checks easier. Currently in the campaign I'm running I allow such synergy. I am aware one of my players needs Profession Astrologer for Sublime Cord I believe. With sufficiently high checks, I think I would allow the character to study the stars and improve their divination spells in some manner after this study. Obviously something to use in the cases you really need to make that one divination for. I'm curious, what are the strangest Profession skills you've taken? I've only had the pleasure of Writer so far, but I did want to take Gambler, and Artist. Hee hee, Profession Janitor.
angryscrub 03-25-08, 10:01 PM	well, 1 ton ghost did a good job summarizing, but i'll address some issues specifically. Its not a house ruled nerf. Its acknowledgement of the fact that the skill relies entirely on what the GM deems "daily tasks." For example, one GM may decide knot tying is obviously a day-to-day task for a sailor. However, another, may decide that knot tying, while day-to-day, is already covered by Use Rope. Both would be correct. yes, both would be correct, but i fail to see what the latter point has to do with anything. on a ship, you could use either to tie a good knot. however, a character with ranks in use rope would also be good at securing a grappling hook, whereas a sailor would not. and really, does anyone think a commoner with 8 intelligence couldn't make a satisfactory sailor if he puts all his skill points into profession sailor? according to you, he couldn't, because climbing the rigging is already covered by the climb skill, so now he needs climb and use rope both just to start doing his job. Under your system, if I wanted to be sneaky, why wouldn't I just take "Profession: Assasin?" Does that mean I get Disguise, Move Silently, and Hide all in one skill? Do I also know Craft: Poisonmaking because I took a profession? first off, you could certainly rule in your game for that to be the case, but i think maybe you don't quite get what an assassin is. it's someone who takes money from clients to kill people the client wants dead. how it happens is generally irrelevant to an assassins day to day job tasks. the profession part of being an assassin covers negotiating fees and conditions, finding info about the mark, developing underworld contacts, and things of that nature. that's what separates an amateur from a professional. secondly, it's not my system. it's RAW d&d. Why ever take Diplomacy when I could take "Profession: Diplomat" and get the benefits of Diplomacy, Bluff, Knowledge: Nobility, and Sense Motive? you could certainly rule that's how profession diplomat works in your game, but see what i wrote above. that's not generally what diplomats do. many diplomats don't even have the authority to negotiate treaties, they just funnel information back and forth, and look pretty, and know the customs of the elite of the land they're assigned to. Why take Gather Information when I could just use Profession: Bounty Hunter to do all that and more? how would bounty hunter get you info about specific rumors? or obtain a map? it gets you stuff related to the person you are hunting. but once again, you can rule it how you like. Profession: Merchant gets me at least Appraise and Diplomacy. well, no, you could use your profession check instead of diplomacy when haggling, but anything aside from that is certainly outside the day to day tasks of a merchant by any stretch of the imagination. and appraising the value of trade goods, certainly. What about Profession: Magic Shopkeeper? Does that let me add Use Magic Device? why would it? profession heroin dealer doesn't give you skill with a needle. selling your product has little to do with using it. What about Profession: Charlatan, in which my job involves UMDing wands and scrolls to do miraculous healings and stuff and play it off as natural or divine power? With Profession: Prophet or Profession: Fortune Teller, can I make a skill check to see the future? except for maybe fortune teller, those aren't even professions. and for the fortune teller, as with any divination related power, how it works is entirely up to the dm. What do you think the Profession: Farmer DC is for milking a cow? Is it actually important if he fails or not? What drama would it add? DCs are always set by the dm. and as for the importance or drama, it has none if there's no context. swing on a rope. jump. swim. see, all actions that with no context are meaningless from a drama standpoint. If you're using Profession: Teamster to push your animals, is it the same difficulty as Handle Animal? Is it easier because its a "daily task?" Is it even a daily task? Do you need to push every day, and if not, does that count? falls under common problems i'd say. DCs are set by the dm as always. Profession does not need to be nerfed by house-rules. If you allow profession skills to step on the toes of other, already existant skills, you are using a house rule to buff it. If you don't allow players who are roleplaying someone in a certain field as already knowing how to do daily tasks and things of that nature without taking ranks in profession, then you're just being difficult. What purpose does it serve to prevent players from doing the kind of mundane stuff you're talking about without a roll? Why punish them mechanically for roleplaying strange professions? dude, profession is an already existing skill. i didn't make it up. it's right there in the SRD and the PHB. and nothing prevents anyone from doing mundane stuff. the majority of skills can be used untrained. if you really want to be good at something though you either need training (skill ranks) or natural talent (high ability score). role playing is taking on a role. in the d&d framework, you have limited choices to define that role, and you have to build a character you want to play within its framework. if i want to play a brilliant tactician, then roll up a character with a 4 int, by your logic you'd be "punishing" me by not letting my character plan elaborate ambushes and make brilliant battlefield maneuvers. Player: "I want to be the party's cook." GM: "Well, then take Profession: Chef." Player: "Well, I'd have to give up Spot then..." GM: "Hey, do you want to give your fellow dungeon delvers delicious, homecooked meals, or do you want to have 0 ranks in the most common roll in any and all roleplaying games and get ambushed and pick pocketed and stuff all the time?" Player: "Er, well will it give them extra benefit if they eat nice meals as opposed to just rations?" GM: "No, of course not. You're not brewing potions here, just cooking." Player: "Uh, ok...no cook it is." well, cooking is a craft, actually, and can be used untrained. the profession of chef involves other things besides just preparing food. Nobody should be mechanically penalized for making a roleplaying choice unless they want to be penalized. ummm. i want to role play a blind person, but i don't want to be mechanically penalized. i want to role play being a blood drinking baby murderer, but i don't want to be mechanically penalized. i want to play a functionally retarded person, but i don't want to be mechanically penalized. look, if you want to role play being a cook, buy a spice rack. ask the other party members what they thought of last nights meal. ask every innkeeper you meet if they have any good recipes. bang, you're a cook, and you haven't even been mechanically penalized, or nerfed profession in the process.
mplindustries 03-26-08, 02:34 AM	look, if you want to role play being a cook, buy a spice rack. ask the other party members what they thought of last nights meal. ask every innkeeper you meet if they have any good recipes. bang, you're a cook, and you haven't even been mechanically penalized, or nerfed profession in the process. Thats pretty much my entire point. If you think that statement actually countered me or something, I am really confused as to what people think I'm advocating here.
Master_Vega 03-26-08, 11:14 AM	Thats pretty much my entire point. If you think that statement actually countered me or something, I am really confused as to what people think I'm advocating here. What I think he's getting at is that you don't need profession (Cook) too cook. You simply need it (actually, you need Craft [Cooking]) to cook well. Profession (Cook/Chef/insert term meaning the same thing here) will simply help you run your cooking business, or give you an idea of what you can charge for your food. Since you know how good your stuff is (not incredible if you have no ranks in craft (cooking)), and you know what other restaurants/inns sell it for, you know what people will buy it for... and just how much more you can squeeze out of them.
1 ton ghost 03-26-08, 03:36 PM	thanks for the kind praise in my summaries and all, but you guys know this stuff already; i'm not doing anything monumental apart from minor clarifying really. just contributing, no more, no less. Skill Weirdness: i suppose a good allusion is Ride. i suck at Ride (horses), i have no ranks, but i can still Ride, just not gonna' have much luck doing anything fancy and maintaining myself in the saddle. someone w/ actual ranks will. in light of the Title endowment certain skills provide (you guys mentioned this, good points btw), um, actually, i guess you would (might be?) be an "equestrian sportsman/woman" w/ formal training (ranks), not just talent (good Dex mod) vs. ppl like me (good Dex, no training there). still, smart money is on the trained professional as they'll slowly but surely keep getting more ranks in skill 'x', but a highly talented person will hit a ceiling unless he is always adventuring (leveling, magical upgrades, etc) to get it higher. not very efficient (for this 1 skill), but not my choice either. so be it. that raises another point. some ppl are just naturally predisposed or augmented to be super talented. ie)Relevant Ability is so damn high that low, or no ranks w/ killer "talent" supercedes a decently trained (ranks) person w/ decent Ability modifier. ex) you can be a hulk (high Str) and scale the Matterhorn by Taking 20 on Climb, but a stringier (avg Str) alpine master (several ranks) might not get as far given numeric elements (in game). IRL though, get back to me after major frostbite on Everest all you stereroid cases...;) we gotta' remember untrained vs. trained skills and all that though too. Cooking (is it Prof or Craft?), is trickier i guess. you can claim to be one, though a Chef implies some proper schooling and all. not sure what entitles one to, um, "the title". i thought the measure of "pretty good" in a given field was around 5 ranks or so, MAYBE a modest ability modifer (regular folks are 10-11 i thought), and Skill Focus for the typical John Doe salaryman. granted, this is what i remember off hand from DMG I & II, not verbatim, so bare w/ me. does that then entitle you to the "job title"? so, "who examines the doctors?" how do you entitle yourself to skill 'x'? randomness: Profession Diplomat is (IMO) more likely Aristocrat or Expert w/ ranks in Diplomacy (a given), Bluff (they are politicians afterall), Know Local/Nobility/Geography/even Religion (churches send envoys too), perhaps Prof Scribe for legal documentation, Forgery for LE diplomats, and the most important one, Sense Motive (don't knock it, life saver sometimes). Not every vocation in game has a Profession tethered to it. Some of the relevant jobs/careers/vocations are expressed in Armor/Weapon Proficiency, (Ex)'s, (Su)'s, whatever. Don't sell yourselves short, but don't gloss over something either.