Post/Author/DateTime	Post
RobbyPants 11-05-07, 11:14 AM	How do you feel about a feat that would give the Swashbuckler a bonus to AC equal to their Int mod (max Swashbuckler class level, minimum 1)? The feat would only work if you were unamrored and only carrying a light load. The idea of the feat is to help with the image of the unarmored swashbuckler without totally gimping the character. Even still, I would think you'd be better off not spending the feat and wearing magical light armor. I'm not sure what I want the prereqs to be (perhaps Grace +1). Even if a wizard or psion were to dip in quick to get the ability, because it caps at a maximum of the Swashbuckler class level, they'd get minimum benifit (at a loss of caster levels). So, what do you think? Would it be a flavorful feat? With what I've posted so far, I actually feel it would end up underpowered (assuming it's tied to Swashbuckler class levels).
aelryinth 11-05-07, 01:05 PM	No problem here with it. Just make sure they lose it if they use a shield, and you've effectively just got a swordsage variant. ===Aelryinth
RobbyPants 11-05-07, 01:07 PM	No problem here with it. Just make sure they lose it if they use a shield, and you've effectively just got a swordsage variant. ===Aelryinth Good point. I guess I'd assumed unarmored also meant shieldless, but I'd probably be safer explicitly stating so in the feat.
Sived4592 11-05-07, 04:06 PM	The Duelist prestige class has that very ability offered to them at lvl 1. It is called Canny Defense. "When not wearing armor or using a shield, a duelist adds 1 point of Int bonus (if any) per duelist class level to her Dex bonus to modify armor class while wielding a melee weapon. If a duelist is caught flat footed or otherwise denied her Dex bonus, she also looses this bonus." To get this PrC your pc would have to be at least lvl 7. So either figure out some requirements that are in the same ball park, or perhaps ask your DM if you could swap out the Dodge Bonus ability and add in Canny Defense at level 5. You would probably do better with the canny defense. Dodge - Won't loose it from being flatfooted. Canny Defense - Will have the bonus to all attackers, not just the designated one. You might need to cap it at a +10 bonus though. That's as high as the Duelist could get max, and a +10 to INT isn't going to happen very often unless you are really trying for it or hitting epic levels.
Rulebook 11-05-07, 04:44 PM	base it off charisma or somethign that dosent make it a natural spell type situation and it'll be cool.
RobbyPants 11-05-07, 06:41 PM	The Duelist prestige class has that very ability offered to them at lvl 1. It is called Canny Defense. "When not wearing armor or using a shield, a duelist adds 1 point of Int bonus (if any) per duelist class level to her Dex bonus to modify armor class while wielding a melee weapon. If a duelist is caught flat footed or otherwise denied her Dex bonus, she also looses this bonus." To get this PrC your pc would have to be at least lvl 7. So either figure out some requirements that are in the same ball park, or perhaps ask your DM if you could swap out the Dodge Bonus ability and add in Canny Defense at level 5. You would probably do better with the canny defense. Dodge - Won't loose it from being flatfooted. Canny Defense - Will have the bonus to all attackers, not just the designated one. You might need to cap it at a +10 bonus though. That's as high as the Duelist could get max, and a +10 to INT isn't going to happen very often unless you are really trying for it or hitting epic levels. Well, what I was hoping for is something that could be taken at around 1st to 3rd level (probably not 1st). Even still, when you get it, the benifit will be marginal. Even if you have an insane Int and a boatload of Int-boosting items, it's still capped at your class level. At low levels, a character can easily afford a chain shirt and come out ahead up until 4th level. By that point, the armor can be enchanted, and they should still surpass the potential of this feat. All in all, swashbuckler is an underpowered class past 3rd level. Until the "Daring" series of feats came out, there was no reason to pursue the class beyond this point. I'm trying to come up with a feat to help maintain that incentive, as well as add a bit of flavor to the character. I don't think I need to push the ability off until PrC-level. base it off charisma or somethign that dosent make it a natural spell type situation and it'll be cool. I don't see how that helps, as sorcerers and bards cast based off of Cha. Remember, it caps at the Swashbuckler class level anyway, so even if I make it available at 1st level, if a Wizard dips in for a level, he only gets +1 AC. Each level they dip in further is another caster level lost. There's no way I can justify dropping caster levels for AC at a 1-to-1 ratio. The only way I'd see it as abusable is in a gestalt game where you played a Swashbuckler up one side and a Wizard, Archivist, or Beguiler up the other. At this point, it's gestalt, and it's already overpowered.
Sived4592 11-06-07, 10:22 AM	Well, what I was hoping for is something that could be taken at around 1st to 3rd level (probably not 1st). Even still, when you get it, the benifit will be marginal. Even if you have an insane Int and a boatload of Int-boosting items, it's still capped at your class level. At low levels, a character can easily afford a chain shirt and come out ahead up until 4th level. By that point, the armor can be enchanted, and they should still surpass the potential of this feat. Hmm, maybe give it a pre-req of having Weapon Finesse and take it at lvl 2 as a feat. The logic is that you have learned how to parry extremely well with your selected weapon so you can add in your INT bonus as stated above. Then the + to AC only works with the weapon you selected for weapon finesse. That may help to "balance" out any disputes that a DM might have. I agree with you that it is needed, and I don't personaly think that it will unbalance the class by actually having it be good at doing what it should be doing. Matrix style sword dodging and the fancy move style blocks and parries. :D
arjomanes 11-06-07, 04:35 PM	I think the ac boost should come after level 3, or maybe give a +1 at level 1, a +2 at level 4, a +3 at level 7, etc. If you get a big ac boost on top of insightful strike thats too much for a dip.
StruckingFuggle 11-06-07, 04:50 PM	Why is it that Wis-to-AC and Cha-to-AC is always uncapped when you get it, but Canny Defense is always capped at your level in the granting class (which as someone - Sean K. Reynolds? - pointed out means that for several levels into the class, it's better to wear armor than it is to take advantage of that class feature?
aelryinth 11-06-07, 09:01 PM	As I recall, the reasoning behind the change to the Duellist, who is the ONLY class that got the Int to AC thing, is because Elven Wizards could 'fall into' the pre-reqs for the class, and get an outrageous AC modifier for no cost (since they didn't wear armor anyways). Druids and priests at least have access to armor, and so the Wis mod is basically replacing the AC they'd have otherwise. By making it level based, you basically 'weed out' Int based spellcasters who don't wear armor from making use of the ability. Ergo, the ability should be part of the Swashbuckler class at level 1, so that it can advance very quickly. THe only problem then is trying to keep the Int high enough to actually make use of the ability over light armor. This would, I think, more then warrant a Swordsage 'upgrade' to usability in light armor...and Swordsage's get this at level 1. Ergo, make it a Swordsage ability, Int basis, that goes up +1 per swashbuckler/duellist/fighter level to Int, and it's not only balanced, it's potentially underpowered (Since a mage could just take a level of monk/wear a monk's belt, and take Carmedine or Kung Fu Genius and get his Int benefit, anyways.) ===Aelryinth
RobbyPants 11-06-07, 10:31 PM	Ergo, the ability should be part of the Swashbuckler class at level 1, so that it can advance very quickly. THe only problem then is trying to keep the Int high enough to actually make use of the ability over light armor. This would, I think, more then warrant a Swordsage 'upgrade' to usability in light armor...and Swordsage's get this at level 1. Ergo, make it a Swordsage ability, Int basis, that goes up +1 per swashbuckler/duellist/fighter level to Int, and it's not only balanced, it's potentially underpowered (Since a mage could just take a level of monk/wear a monk's belt, and take Carmedine or Kung Fu Genius and get his Int benefit, anyways.) ===Aelryinth So what are you suggesting in the end? That I allow it to work with light armor, and also allow Swashbuckler, Fighter, and Duelist levels to stack? I agree that it's certainly not the most abuseable thing out there, and I felt the feat I originally proposed was underpowered.
RobbyPants 11-09-07, 09:47 AM	What if, instead of a feat, it were an alternate class feature. You would gain your Int mod (max class level, min 1) as a bonus to AC. Also, I would add in a +1 bonus every five levels (like the monk). This bonus would not apply if armored. You would lose the Dodge bonus granted by the Swashbuckler class, as well as light armor proficiency. Anyway, this version would end up saving you a feat, and also allow your AC to improve a bit more (similar to the monk). To keep it limited, it's capped based on your Swashbuckler class level (similar to the feat I originally proposed). How does this sound? Better than the feat? I suppose I could crosspost this in the classes forum. I'll see how much traffic it gets first. ;)
StruckingFuggle 11-09-07, 01:18 PM	You would gain your Int mod (max class level, min 1) as a bonus to AC. Also, I would add in a +1 bonus every five levels (like the monk). This bonus would not apply if armored. You would lose the Dodge bonus granted by the Swashbuckler class, as well as light armor proficiency. Anyway, this version would end up saving you a feat, and also allow your AC to improve a bit more (similar to the monk). To keep it limited, it's capped based on your Swashbuckler class level (similar to the feat I originally proposed). How does this sound? Better than the feat? It sounds completely awful unless you start as a high-level Swashbuckler. "Oh hey look at me I'm a level 1 Swasbuckler with 11+dex ac! Hit me, please!"
RobbyPants 11-09-07, 02:19 PM	It sounds completely awful unless you start as a high-level Swashbuckler. "Oh hey look at me I'm a level 1 Swasbuckler with 11+dex ac! Hit me, please!" True. I'm trying to find a way to keep it from being the ultimate gish dip though...
StruckingFuggle 11-09-07, 02:26 PM	Put it a few levels deep, like around five or so? Or put it at one, cap it by level, and don't remove armor profs?
RobbyPants 11-09-07, 02:44 PM	Or put it at one, cap it by level, and don't remove armor profs? Similar to a swordsage (but Int instead of Wis)? If I did this, I imagine it should be a feat instead of an ACF. If I treat it as an ACF, I'm giving the class something for free. How do you feel about it?
RobbyPants 11-09-07, 11:14 PM	I posted the idea of this as an alternate class feature (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?p=14293890#post14293890) in the Classes forum. I feel that is more of what I'm looking for.
dman11235 11-10-07, 04:43 PM	That works much better than a feat.
RobbyPants 11-12-07, 09:44 AM	That works much better than a feat. Thanks. Based on this, and feedback in the other thread, I think that's the route I'm going to take. I'll probably just use that ACF as a houserule in my games.