Psion + Reserve Feats <--- P.E.A.C.H. [Archive] - Wizards Community

Psion + Reserve Feats <--- P.E.A.C.H. [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
DarkPawn
07-09-07, 04:48 PM Another player I game with wants to figure out a way to allow psions to use reserved feats out of the complete mage. Here are his ideas and I have told him what I thought. He then suggested I post the idea on the forums for neutral opinions. I am therefore doing as he requested.

The other factor I want to bring to attention is the magic/psionics transparency rule, indicating that there is no difference between the two regarding metamagic feats (if there's a metamagic for arcane, there's one for psionics, as detailed in the epic level handbook and hinted at in other locations), saving throws, spell resistance vs. power resistance, etc.

Now, given these two things, what if we were to have the same thing for psionics with regards to reserve feats. Instead of having a spell prepared and not used, why not have power points invested for a specific power, and then have access to the same reserve feats (with the exception of changing Summon Elemental to Summon Construct).

The mechanic would have to be slightly different, as many of the powers psions get are augmentable (i.e. you can invest more power points to make them more powerful). It's actually very similar to a heighten spell or similar effect.

So... my proposed mechanic would be for the elemental-based ones (like acidic splatter, winter's breath, thunder whatever, etc) you can use any power you have that's energy based, and invest points that way. 1d6 every odd number PP invested (as level 1 powers use 1 pp, level 2 are 3 pp, and so on). This basically equates the same to spell level. Same with teleportation, shadow/darkness, etc, only you just count every odd number of PP for your "spell level." You have access to those PP's at any time, but if you use them, you lose the ability to utilize your reserve feat, just like you would a spell.

For the summon elemental/construct one, you'd use every 4 pp. i.e. 1 PP will get you the level 1 construct. 5 PP will get you the level 2 construct. 9 PP level 3, etc. Boost construct would apply, because you are still drawing out a construct, and the feat is not metapsionic, it's just a psionic feat.

Pretty simple changeover, imho. What're everyone's thoughts?
TheDarkLord
07-09-07, 04:54 PM You might get better answers if you put this in the Psionics forum (I know it technically belongs here, but...).
DarkPawn
07-09-07, 05:16 PM You might get better answers if you put this in the Psionics forum (I know it technically belongs here, but...).

I'm not moving it now but thanks for the opinion.
Melayl
07-09-07, 05:30 PM There's been some discussion on this on the Psionics boards.

Try this (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=804922) thread and this one (http://boards1.wizards.com/wotc_archive/index.php/t-726333#post10438822).
Tempest Stormwind
07-09-07, 05:42 PM I think I have a fairly representative viewpoint for the psionics forum.

Your Anonymous Psion is incorrect that feats are transparent. They are not. The Epic Level Handbook was 3.0 and psionics have been dramatically revised since then (and the ELH really didn't understand psionics either, it was just "oh, look, more magic". Case in point, it actually says "The epic psion does not continue to gain power points beyond 20th level. Instead, at every level beyond 20th, he gains 32 power points.")

Example: Combat Casting does not apply to psionics, but Combat Manifesting does. Similarly, Empower Spell cannot be used to empower a power, and vice versa for Empower Power.

Note that feats are NOT listed on the psionics-magic transparency section; that only applies in the domain of power/spell interaction (and other things that *directly* are called due to powers and spells, such as spell resistance). Feats are neither.

There are also some feats that exist the way they do strictly because of the way the vancian mechanics work for spellcasting (Alacritous Cogitation, Versatile Spellcaster, and so on) or how the power point system works for psionics (Psionic Hole). They are NOT identical, even though they may do similar things (example: Earth Power vs Earth Spell. The former reduces all power point costs by 1. The latter makes Heighten Spell function at +1 spell level and improves your caster level by 1 per level heightened. The two are by no means equivalent).

It seems that your Anonymous Psion's premises are completely flawed.

That said, reserve feats have been pitched to psionics before. They've never been particularly well-recieved. Partly because psionic focus feats (Psionic Weapon, Up the Walls, and so on) are pretty much the same thing.
DarkPawn
07-09-07, 06:11 PM I think I have a fairly representative viewpoint for the psionics forum.

Your Anonymous Psion is incorrect that feats are transparent. They are not. The Epic Level Handbook was 3.0 and psionics have been dramatically revised since then (and the ELH really didn't understand psionics either, it was just "oh, look, more magic". Case in point, it actually says "The epic psion does not continue to gain power points beyond 20th level. Instead, at every level beyond 20th, he gains 32 power points.")

Example: Combat Casting does not apply to psionics, but Combat Manifesting does. Similarly, Empower Spell cannot be used to empower a power, and vice versa for Empower Power.

Note that feats are NOT listed on the psionics-magic transparency section; that only applies in the domain of power/spell interaction (and other things that *directly* are called due to powers and spells, such as spell resistance). Feats are neither.

There are also some feats that exist the way they do strictly because of the way the vancian mechanics work for spellcasting (Alacritous Cogitation, Versatile Spellcaster, and so on) or how the power point system works for psionics (Psionic Hole). They are NOT identical, even though they may do similar things (example: Earth Power vs Earth Spell. The former reduces all power point costs by 1. The latter makes Heighten Spell function at +1 spell level and improves your caster level by 1 per level heightened. The two are by no means equivalent).

It seems that your Anonymous Psion's premises are completely flawed.

That said, reserve feats have been pitched to psionics before. They've never been particularly well-recieved. Partly because psionic focus feats (Psionic Weapon, Up the Walls, and so on) are pretty much the same thing.

Thank you sir, this is basically what I told him but he didn't want to hear it from me.
Tempest Stormwind
07-09-07, 06:30 PM Thank you sir, this is basically what I told him but he didn't want to hear it from me.

Well, in his defense, the closest to what he's been talking about have been re-implementations of 3.0 talents.

These have ranged from a retcon to the system to a feat cost, but the general idea behind them is to manifest a power you know without spending any power points by expending psionic focus. The power is considered 0-level for all level-dependent calculations and functions as if you were ML 1 for all purposes (including the effective "PP cap" effect; thus only un-augmented 1st level powers could function that way).

Do a board search looking for talent revisions and you'll give him some other ideas.
zzo38
07-09-07, 06:37 PM I read somewhere that psionics might be able to get reserve feats (not as Psion bonus feats, though) and gain the secondary benefit only, the first benefit does not apply to psionics because you have no spell slots. For example, "+1 CL on divination spells" applies to clairsentience powers. Some don't work at all with psionics. It should be similar with metamagic. With metamagic, only metamagic feats that do not adjust the caster level can be used with psionics.
Dead_Weasel
07-10-07, 02:24 AM The reserve power point abilities from 3.0 psionics demonstrated fairly well how poor of a mechanic it really is. The reserve feats are neat, but they are not very good. Psionic focus is vastly superior to holding power points in reserve. The arcane focus options Dragon explored were better than the reserve feats but not by much. My 2 cp.
Tempest Stormwind
07-10-07, 09:35 AM The reserve power point abilities from 3.0 psionics demonstrated fairly well how poor of a mechanic it really is. The reserve feats are neat, but they are not very good. Psionic focus is vastly superior to holding power points in reserve. The arcane focus options Dragon explored were better than the reserve feats but not by much. My 2 cp.

Only because they were verbatim rip-offs of psionic focus.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
DarkPawn 07-09-07, 04:48 PM	Another player I game with wants to figure out a way to allow psions to use reserved feats out of the complete mage. Here are his ideas and I have told him what I thought. He then suggested I post the idea on the forums for neutral opinions. I am therefore doing as he requested. The other factor I want to bring to attention is the magic/psionics transparency rule, indicating that there is no difference between the two regarding metamagic feats (if there's a metamagic for arcane, there's one for psionics, as detailed in the epic level handbook and hinted at in other locations), saving throws, spell resistance vs. power resistance, etc. Now, given these two things, what if we were to have the same thing for psionics with regards to reserve feats. Instead of having a spell prepared and not used, why not have power points invested for a specific power, and then have access to the same reserve feats (with the exception of changing Summon Elemental to Summon Construct). The mechanic would have to be slightly different, as many of the powers psions get are augmentable (i.e. you can invest more power points to make them more powerful). It's actually very similar to a heighten spell or similar effect. So... my proposed mechanic would be for the elemental-based ones (like acidic splatter, winter's breath, thunder whatever, etc) you can use any power you have that's energy based, and invest points that way. 1d6 every odd number PP invested (as level 1 powers use 1 pp, level 2 are 3 pp, and so on). This basically equates the same to spell level. Same with teleportation, shadow/darkness, etc, only you just count every odd number of PP for your "spell level." You have access to those PP's at any time, but if you use them, you lose the ability to utilize your reserve feat, just like you would a spell. For the summon elemental/construct one, you'd use every 4 pp. i.e. 1 PP will get you the level 1 construct. 5 PP will get you the level 2 construct. 9 PP level 3, etc. Boost construct would apply, because you are still drawing out a construct, and the feat is not metapsionic, it's just a psionic feat. Pretty simple changeover, imho. What're everyone's thoughts?
TheDarkLord 07-09-07, 04:54 PM	You might get better answers if you put this in the Psionics forum (I know it technically belongs here, but...).
DarkPawn 07-09-07, 05:16 PM	You might get better answers if you put this in the Psionics forum (I know it technically belongs here, but...). I'm not moving it now but thanks for the opinion.
Melayl 07-09-07, 05:30 PM	There's been some discussion on this on the Psionics boards. Try this (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=804922) thread and this one (http://boards1.wizards.com/wotc_archive/index.php/t-726333#post10438822).
Tempest Stormwind 07-09-07, 05:42 PM	I think I have a fairly representative viewpoint for the psionics forum. Your Anonymous Psion is incorrect that feats are transparent. They are not. The Epic Level Handbook was 3.0 and psionics have been dramatically revised since then (and the ELH really didn't understand psionics either, it was just "oh, look, more magic". Case in point, it actually says "The epic psion does not continue to gain power points beyond 20th level. Instead, at every level beyond 20th, he gains 32 power points.") Example: Combat Casting does not apply to psionics, but Combat Manifesting does. Similarly, Empower Spell cannot be used to empower a power, and vice versa for Empower Power. Note that feats are NOT listed on the psionics-magic transparency section; that only applies in the domain of power/spell interaction (and other things that directly are called due to powers and spells, such as spell resistance). Feats are neither. There are also some feats that exist the way they do strictly because of the way the vancian mechanics work for spellcasting (Alacritous Cogitation, Versatile Spellcaster, and so on) or how the power point system works for psionics (Psionic Hole). They are NOT identical, even though they may do similar things (example: Earth Power vs Earth Spell. The former reduces all power point costs by 1. The latter makes Heighten Spell function at +1 spell level and improves your caster level by 1 per level heightened. The two are by no means equivalent). It seems that your Anonymous Psion's premises are completely flawed. That said, reserve feats have been pitched to psionics before. They've never been particularly well-recieved. Partly because psionic focus feats (Psionic Weapon, Up the Walls, and so on) are pretty much the same thing.
DarkPawn 07-09-07, 06:11 PM	I think I have a fairly representative viewpoint for the psionics forum. Your Anonymous Psion is incorrect that feats are transparent. They are not. The Epic Level Handbook was 3.0 and psionics have been dramatically revised since then (and the ELH really didn't understand psionics either, it was just "oh, look, more magic". Case in point, it actually says "The epic psion does not continue to gain power points beyond 20th level. Instead, at every level beyond 20th, he gains 32 power points.") Example: Combat Casting does not apply to psionics, but Combat Manifesting does. Similarly, Empower Spell cannot be used to empower a power, and vice versa for Empower Power. Note that feats are NOT listed on the psionics-magic transparency section; that only applies in the domain of power/spell interaction (and other things that directly are called due to powers and spells, such as spell resistance). Feats are neither. There are also some feats that exist the way they do strictly because of the way the vancian mechanics work for spellcasting (Alacritous Cogitation, Versatile Spellcaster, and so on) or how the power point system works for psionics (Psionic Hole). They are NOT identical, even though they may do similar things (example: Earth Power vs Earth Spell. The former reduces all power point costs by 1. The latter makes Heighten Spell function at +1 spell level and improves your caster level by 1 per level heightened. The two are by no means equivalent). It seems that your Anonymous Psion's premises are completely flawed. That said, reserve feats have been pitched to psionics before. They've never been particularly well-recieved. Partly because psionic focus feats (Psionic Weapon, Up the Walls, and so on) are pretty much the same thing. Thank you sir, this is basically what I told him but he didn't want to hear it from me.
Tempest Stormwind 07-09-07, 06:30 PM	Thank you sir, this is basically what I told him but he didn't want to hear it from me. Well, in his defense, the closest to what he's been talking about have been re-implementations of 3.0 talents. These have ranged from a retcon to the system to a feat cost, but the general idea behind them is to manifest a power you know without spending any power points by expending psionic focus. The power is considered 0-level for all level-dependent calculations and functions as if you were ML 1 for all purposes (including the effective "PP cap" effect; thus only un-augmented 1st level powers could function that way). Do a board search looking for talent revisions and you'll give him some other ideas.
zzo38 07-09-07, 06:37 PM	I read somewhere that psionics might be able to get reserve feats (not as Psion bonus feats, though) and gain the secondary benefit only, the first benefit does not apply to psionics because you have no spell slots. For example, "+1 CL on divination spells" applies to clairsentience powers. Some don't work at all with psionics. It should be similar with metamagic. With metamagic, only metamagic feats that do not adjust the caster level can be used with psionics.
Dead_Weasel 07-10-07, 02:24 AM	The reserve power point abilities from 3.0 psionics demonstrated fairly well how poor of a mechanic it really is. The reserve feats are neat, but they are not very good. Psionic focus is vastly superior to holding power points in reserve. The arcane focus options Dragon explored were better than the reserve feats but not by much. My 2 cp.
Tempest Stormwind 07-10-07, 09:35 AM	The reserve power point abilities from 3.0 psionics demonstrated fairly well how poor of a mechanic it really is. The reserve feats are neat, but they are not very good. Psionic focus is vastly superior to holding power points in reserve. The arcane focus options Dragon explored were better than the reserve feats but not by much. My 2 cp. Only because they were verbatim rip-offs of psionic focus.